What is the non Catholic view of this?

[Gregory Thompson]

I have no idea what you mean?

Using the devil's reaction to determine the will of God is flawed and dangerous. It's not a good idea to rely on this.

 

[prodromos]

Ok I will kick the dust off of my shoes then and move on.

Oh you heretic you

I have done all I can do.

Don't sell yourself so short, but then again, you don't have that much to work with.

May God be with you brother.

And also with you, always.

 

[prodromos]

Using the devil's reaction to determine the will of God is flawed and dangerous. It's not a good idea to rely on this.

One could consider it as a satanic conspiracy in order to dupe people into thinking that maybe the Catholics are right. The devil has been around long enough to know how we think. I'm not saying I believe this to be the case, just pointing out the argument presented is not necessarily as potent as claimed.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

One could consider it as a satanic conspiracy in order to dupe people into thinking that maybe the Catholics are right. The devil has been around long enough to know how we think. I'm not saying I believe this to be the case, just pointing out the argument presented is not necessarily as potent as claimed.

Yes, I Have been in a number of denominations in the past, and I think I've had this conversation in each that because they are oppressed or mocked or somethinged by the devil it somehow justifies their doctrine. However, the flaw in this thinking is, it accepts the oppression as validation and displays no capacity to displace it.

 

[HatGuy]

So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these.

I think the problem with this is that there are many miracles reported across Christianity, including charismatic / Word of Faith circles. There's lots of stuff happening in Africa - for example, look up TB Joshua. He might be a charlatan, as many believe, but many of the miracles are real. I know a guy who went to see what was going on there and saw some healings that no one could fake (literally cancerous growths disappearing etc.). Do such miracles validate his theology? Think about guys like Benny Hinn etc. Do the many signs and wonders and miracles validate the theology? In truth, many people come to Christ through many rather dubious ministries.

It seems we can't really use these things to validate doctrine. Perhaps God simply honours faith, regardless of the context. I can't say for sure about what to think of Mary specifically but I have to pretty much deal with this like I deal with all the miracles taking place in other contexts where I really do think the theology is not Biblical at all. I have to chalk it up to God's sovereignty reaching people where they are at.

 

[HatGuy]

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that.

In terms of this, I think you're limited to your own context. Because you're Catholic you might be limited in your knowledge as to what's happening elsewhere.

Nevertheless, it might be that Catholic theology is sacramental which is much more mystical than many Protestant movements. This mystical nature of it would attract Satanists, I think, due to their attraction to the esoteric (the negative version of Christian mysticism) - if that makes sense? Candles and rites and ceremonies etc. are things that attract Satanists, so using what is supposed to be used in a very mystical / picture language Christian rite and ceremony for their own purposes is probably more attractive than stealing crackers and grape juice from the local Baptist church.

 

[Albion]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals

My guess is that non-Catholics, by and large, just don't think in terms of "dazzle me and I'll believe." They are converted to Christ as Christ and don't feel the need for such alleged miracles. Without getting into the authenticity of them--or lack of same--what purpose do they serve?

Then too, there IS that question of authenticity. In almost 200 years and literally millions of visitors to Lourdes--many of them desperate for a miracle and expecting one--there have been 69 miracles, even by the count of the institution that has the most to gain by having them be considered real! 69?

As a Christian, I'd think that this tiny percentage would likely have experienced a miraculous healing (and, in some cases, a predictable conversion experience) simply as a result of prayer, regardless of whether it occurred at Lourdes or in their own bedrooms.

 

[hiphopopotomus]

I think the problem with this is that there are many miracles reported across Christianity, including charismatic / Word of Faith circles. There's lots of stuff happening in Africa - for example, look up TB Joshua. He might be a charlatan, as many believe, but many of the miracles are real. I know a guy who went to see what was going on there and saw some healings that no one could fake (literally cancerous growths disappearing etc.). Do such miracles validate his theology? Think about guys like Benny Hinn etc. Do the many signs and wonders and miracles validate the theology? In truth, many people come to Christ through many rather dubious ministries.

It seems we can't really use these things to validate doctrine. Perhaps God simply honours faith, regardless of the context. I can't say for sure about what to think of Mary specifically but I have to pretty much deal with this like I deal with all the miracles taking place in other contexts where I really do think the theology is not Biblical at all. I have to chalk it up to God's sovereignty reaching people where they are at.

Just Google faith healing fakes or scams.
Other than placebo effect they either do not work or are outright scams[the usual case]
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...Ngturm9Xipfcbng&bvm=bv.96782255,d.dGY&cad=rja

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Let's look at things from a pragmatic and rhetorical POV (rhetorical in that I actually believe in the efficacy of the the Chruch, it's sacraments and sacramentals as vehicles of grace and of God's will):

There is also the issue of when a miracle happens, the dogma/sacrament is proven but would logic not also dictate that when a miracle does not happen in conjunction with the dogma/sacrament, that it would disprove the same said dogma and sacrament.

 

[Alithis]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

"the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"

i do not believe that ever happened any more then i believe joseph smith was visited by some angels .. thier both fairy tales imo .

 

[Wayne R]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

I'm a non-denominational Christian and I'm familiar with miracles, in fact depend on them. I have had several, been involved in others and know of many more who don't view miracles as unusual. Many non-Catholics have had profound ministries involving miracles, Smith Wigglesworth was one with a great deal of information left behind. According to scripture, we should expect to walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the norm..I have my doubts about the incident at Fatima, not that it happened, but what caused it. The is enough in the Old Testament about "The Queen of Heaven", and none of it is good. Would Mary really demand a shrine be built to her? Would she receive worship when no angel or human besides Jesus ever would? Why only appear on the 13th of each month? Maybe the purpose was to bring further attention to "Mary" and less to Jesus. "Even Satan can appear as an angel of light."There is way too much attention and worship given the "Mary". She didn't
die for the sins of the world, Jesus did. And we don't need Mary to intercede for us when scripture says Jesus is our intercessor, and we can "boldly enter the thrown room and make our needs known" because the work of Jesus has given us perfect righteousness (Rom 3:22).

 

[FireDragon76]

I believe miracles happen. I have no doubt miracles happened at Lourdes through peoples faith in God. Beyond that, I just am not particularly interested: I just consider the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception one of those things that I see as adiaphora- maybe true, maybe not... either way it doesn't really change things for me. (I'm much more inclined to believe in Our Lady of Medjugorje or Our Lady of Guadalupe, myself).

I had something happen a few months ago when I received an Episcopalian Eucharist that I can't explain any other way than a miracle (ironic because half the priests there basically are Zwinglian in their theology). I've witnessed unexplainable healings of people too at the hands of the same priests.

Miracles work both ways, I don't think they prove one faith true or false or settle the question of Catholics vs. Protestants, which IMO is a rather sad and tired issue to debate in this day and age. My local Lutheran pastor, after all, believes in some kind of papal primacy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do the many signs and wonders and miracles validate the theology? In truth, many people come to Christ through many rather dubious ministries.

Speaking of dubious ministries, I'm sort of embarrassed to admit this, but at one time reading Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong got me back into the Christian faith. It was at a time I was convinced Christianity was all about "fire insurance" for naïve people afraid of dying (at the time I was into Zen meditation, very seriously so, spending a few hours a day meditating). Today, I wouldn't recommend those sorts of books at all, but maybe I should (maybe to a total atheist?).

 

[prodromos]

Speaking of dubious ministries, I'm sort of embarrassed to admit this, but at one time reading Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong got me back into the Christian faith. It was at a time I was convinced Christianity was all about "fire insurance" for naïve people afraid of dying (at the time I was into Zen meditation, very seriously so, spending a few hours a day meditating). Today, I wouldn't recommend those sorts of books at all, but maybe I should (maybe to a total atheist?).

God works in mysterious ways indeed

 

[HatGuy]

Just Google faith healing fakes or scams.
Other than placebo effect they either do not work or are outright scams[the usual case]

Yeah know enough about scams But amazingly some people surprisingly do get healed at some big event of a dubious ministry. I'll take the testimony of friends who were sick the one moment and healthy the next over what skeptics can come up with.

 

[HatGuy]

Speaking of dubious ministries, I'm sort of embarrassed to admit this, but at one time reading Marcus Borg and Bishop John Shelby Spong got me back into the Christian faith. It was at a time I was convinced Christianity was all about "fire insurance" for naïve people afraid of dying (at the time I was into Zen meditation, very seriously so, spending a few hours a day meditating). Today, I wouldn't recommend those sorts of books at all, but maybe I should (maybe to a total atheist?).

God's grace is just amazing What a cool testimony.

 

[FireDragon76]

I guess what moved me away from all that is best summed up by something the emergent Lutheran pastor, Nadia Bolz Weber has said, "admiring and trying to imitate a guy [Jesus] who was really in touch with God just doesn’t seem to bridge the distance between me and the Almighty in ways that help me understand where the hell God is when we are suffering".

I realized Borg and Spong are serving up a thin gruel of faith to people that struggle with their smugness. Better than nothing but... you can do much better. I guess now I consider myself something else (I have read about post-liberalism and radical orthodoxy and that's probably closer to where I am).

 

[hiphopopotomus]

Yeah know enough about scams But amazingly some people surprisingly do get healed at some big event of a dubious ministry. I'll take the testimony of friends who were sick the one moment and healthy the next over what skeptics can come up with.

Like the testimony of people who believe homeopathic solutions have healed them?
Sorry that is all just good old fashioned placebo effect.

 

[hiphopopotomus]

I'm a non-denominational Christian and I'm familiar with miracles, in fact depend on them. I have had several, been involved in others and know of many more who don't view miracles as unusual. Many non-Catholics have had profound ministries involving miracles, Smith Wigglesworth was one with a great deal of information left behind. According to scripture, we should expect to walk in the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the norm..I have my doubts about the incident at Fatima, not that it happened, but what caused it. The is enough in the Old Testament about "The Queen of Heaven", and none of it is good. Would Mary really demand a shrine be built to her? Would she receive worship when no angel or human besides Jesus ever would? Why only appear on the 13th of each month? Maybe the purpose was to bring further attention to "Mary" and less to Jesus. "Even Satan can appear as an angel of light."There is way too much attention and worship given the "Mary". She didn't
die for the sins of the world, Jesus did. And we don't need Mary to intercede for us when scripture says Jesus is our intercessor, and we can "boldly enter the thrown room and make our needs known" because the work of Jesus has given us perfect righteousness (Rom 3:22).

Yes the obsession with Mary is quite strange although praying to a female god makes sense from the perspective that it came about because Mary was a substitute for the female Roman gods.Not especially relevant to the gospel of Jesus though.

 

[Cappadocious]

Here's a hint about kicking the dust off your feet: It shouldn't involve saying that you're kicking the dust off your feet.