What is the non Catholic view of this?

[Athanasias]

Instead of assuming, let each one speak for oneself. One falsehood of organized groups is how ones can try to glump all members into one category and speak for all of them. Discover, by getting to know someone. I am not a legal witness to if any of them really happened. But I know people can fake things. And people can be wishful, to believe what tells them they are right. Look at how people can fool themselves, about who they marry, just as an indicator of how human nature can readily have us fooling ourselves.

But what really works for me is how Jesus has done so much more for me, than my Roman Catholic activity did.If someone talking with me makes these claims, I might look the person in the eye and be quiet and listen for the "therefore". If they say therefore something that the Bible says, fine. If they say therefore something that I find is not Biblical, not fine.

There are things the Roman Catholic Church does, to my knowledge, which are not Biblical and are much more of a problem than having wrong doctrine. So, I am more concerned with what is being done, than what ones think is dogma.

Two examples of what I mean >

> not obeying Paul's standard for who is qualified to "take care of the church of God" > please consider 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

> calling so much attention to Mary and saints, and not so much attention to how Christ "also makes intercession for us." (in Romans 8:34)

I understand that falsehood includes false direction of attention, away from what is more important and what should get more time and attention.

If you are assuming that converting to Christ means or includes worshiping the Roman Catholic "Eucharist", I can't assure you that the person has converted to the real Jesus > 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 shows that there are false Jesus Christs.
Satanists are deceived. Even if ones of them believe they can capture and kidnap Jesus from a Roman Catholic tabernacle, I would not build your faith on what a Satanic person is capable of thinking.

Also, yes maybe certain "ex" Satanists have said they stole the host because they knew Jesus was in it. But I'm curious what some number of different Satanists would say, speaking for themselves. Satan would love to think he has power to capture and kidnap Jesus. So, may be he is really that foolish that he actually thinks he can kidnap Jesus by taking the Roman Catholic host. Or, he has his people thinking so, in order to give them something to do.

But when Jesus was captured and tortured and murdered on the cross, then He beat Satan.

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)

So, Satan does not have power to hurt Jesus. Jesus beat the devil, even while Jesus was the dead Man.

And "fear of death" is slavery to Satan.

And worry is a pathological lier which some number of people trust and obey more than they trust and obey Jesus. So, if you claim someone has converted to Jesus, how is the person about refusing to give in to fear and the pathological lying and abuse of worry??

"'Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:28-29)

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

How much attention is going to how Jesus gives us rest for our souls, and how the "gentle and quiet spirit" of God's love is preciously pleasing to Him? How much are we about resting in Jesus and first being about pleasing our Father?

Hmm wow you got alot of energy. I like it! So I guess your going with the Atheist/medical materialist who say this is all false. Well at least you picked a side and stood by it. Your in interesting company to say the least. I am not gonna derail my own thread and debate other secondary issues with you here but if you ever want to do a one on one dialog on these topics you brought up:

> not obeying Paul's standard for who is qualified to "take care of the church of God" > please consider 1 Timothy 3:1-10.

> calling so much attention to Mary and saints, and not so much attention to how Christ "also makes intercession for us." (in Romans 8:34)"

Then let me know because we can do that in the one on one debate/dialog forum
http://www.christianforums.com/forums/formal-debate-proposals.1128/


and I would look forward to correcting your misconceptions on the Catholic Faith there. God bless you!



In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[Athanasias]

Gal 1:6-9 "though we(Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should bring to you a different gospel..."

The "test" is not simply "is this a real visitation, a real miracle or not" but the test is also -- 'How does it line up with sola scriptura testing?".

Even Paul was subject to that kind of testing in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to "see if" those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so"

I agree mostly Amen(except the sola scripture part). So Bob you should see how deeply entrenched in the bible(old testament and new) this dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary or the Sacrifice of Mass or Purgatory is. God is good. Here are my debates and evidence from the bible on those that show biblical evidence outside of any supernatural evidence . Enjoy! http://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-immaculate-conception-of-mary.7274365/

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/is-the-mass-a-holy-sacrifice.7250921/

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...f-purgatory-athanasias-uphill-battle.7334575/

 

[com7fy8]

So I guess your going with the Atheist/medical materialist who say this is all false. Well at least you picked a side and stood by it. Your in interesting company to say the least.

I didn't say it is or is not false, but that we humans can fool our own selves, because of how we all have been born in sin. This is not in with atheists!! And in this evil world there are people who make things up and fake things, in order to promote whatever they want others to accept. And because I have seen what the Bible says, I don't consider the Roman Catholic thing to be honest.

And in present-day news I have read that a number of Roman Catholic leaders have ordained men who were, to put it "nicely", not qualified to be pastors. This to me shows how those leaders did not make sure with God about whom they selected as pastors; the Bible is very clear how we children of God each can make sure with God about whom He would have us trust; so when I hear about people marrying the wrong people, and religious leaders ordaining evil men, this tells me they did not make sure with God, like the Bible says any child of God can do.

If you can't tell the difference between a cruel and perverted man, versus a pastor who ministers God's own love, this is a major and very dangerous and self-destructive problem, if you can so fool yourself. Plus, ones appointed those unqualified leaders. God does not lead His trusted leaders to ordain unqualified people; we can make sure with God so we aren't so fooled. However, if God knows a religious group is disobeying Him, He is not going to provide them with real pastors to promote their wrong thing. And therefore, in various religious groups, we see how groups can not fill their pulpits and how their desperate methods are getting them some number of deeply sick and evil people, even in their pulpits!! And they are in denial about this.

So, if now so many people can fool their own selves into trusting wrong pastors and leaders higher-up, then surely they could have fooled themselves about those claimed miracles, however.

We can make sure with God, Himself. He is not distant and "high-up" and impersonal and out of reach.

So, if you say that I with this point of view am in with atheists, or even "seem" to be, I would guess that atheists would not agree with you, that I am saying what they say lolololol or even "seem" to. Plus, I understand that you are saying this as a debate tactic, but you have not represented me correctly. Secular debaters might even deliberately misrepresent their opponents, as an accepted tactic. But I believe that we Christians are not to use debate tactics which include misrepresenting someone else > notice how Paul first correctly represented a wrong point of view, before he made clear how it was wrong by sharing what is so right > 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. For a Biblical debate, I would want to discuss with someone who is honest and competent in how he or she represents what I offer, before disagreeing with it.

So, anyway, to keep answering the question of the original poster . . . Christians are very concerned about the deception which has been going on with certain Roman Catholic leaders who have so dangerously fooled their own selves. And we understand that also such deception could be lurking behind the miracles thing. Ones in desperation can promote evil people to be priests, and ones in desperation can promote false reports about miracles, in order to promote and justify. This is done in Satan's kingdom. And, like I offer, I have found some items in the Bible which do not match with all I experienced while involved in devout Roman Catholic practice.

It is very deeply sick and dark, how ones of any of us can not tell the difference between an evil person and someone who ministers God's own love. There are plenty of Bible claiming "Christians" who, also, have fooled themselves into trusting very wrong people, for marriage and who they trust to be their pastors. This is because we have not made sure with God about who He is leading us to trust. We can make sure with God. But if we join a group with even high-up leaders who have not made sure with God about who they ordain, this is not going to help us do this.

I notice how they have not removed the seminary screeners and bishops who were responsible for selecting false candidates. Obviously, in my opinion, they have been proven to not be reliable evaluators. And Jesus makes His sheep, not only His leaders, able to tell the difference between a good shepherd and a predator > John 10:1-30. So, yes with God we can have His love's senses (Hebrews 4:15, Philippians 1:9, Romans 5:5) and reliable guiding (Isaiah 58:11, Romans 8:14, Proverbs 3:5-6), for each of us personally. The real Jesus is not distant, but He personally cares for each of us

So, one reason why ones may not say anything to you about those claimed miracles, is because we have Jesus, already and we trust how He cares for us and we care about you and are praying for you. We understand that if you are in denial, no amount of talking and debating can get through to you, but only God is able; so ones not saying anything could be trusting God in prayer, to win in you.

So - - like I say . . . ask each person why the person doesn't say anything; let each one speak for oneself

 

[FredVB]

Very often when creation is discounted and the Bible called "myth" then you will find that the miracles in the Bible, the creation account, almost everything but the virgin birth is also being discounted.

Why stop with saying the virgin birth of Christ is an exception? I have heard of some teachers for Christianity that exclude miraculous occurrences including that virgin birth, which is from the conception of Christ by the power of God's Spirit.

Gal 1:6-9 "though we(Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should bring to you a different gospel..."
The "test" is not simply "is this a real visitation, a real miracle or not" but the test is also -- 'How does it line up with sola scriptura testing?".
Even Paul was subject to that kind of testing in Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to "see if" those things spoken to them by the Apostle Paul -- were so"

This is a good point, and it is important. Many great things can happen and it is very probable that some will. We have been cautioned of this from God's word, and anything with claim of being from God should be tested with what is said in scriptures, there cannot be inconsistency from God. Consider Deuteronomy 13.

 

[Albion]

Why stop with saying the virgin birth of Christ is an exception? I have heard of some teachers for Christianity that exclude miraculous occurrences including that virgin birth, which is from the conception of Christ by the power of God's Spirit.

The Virgin Birth is explicitly Scriptural. The other supposed Marian miracles are not. They depend for their credibility on scientific verification of the alleged miracles, what the church(es) say about the events, and so on.

 

[BobRyan]

The Virgin Birth is explicitly Scriptural. The other supposed Marian miracles are not. They depend for their credibility on scientific verification of the alleged miracles, what the church(es) say about the events, and so on.

In Matt 24:24 and in 2Thess 2 and in Rev 13 the fact that a miracle can take place, a sign, a wonder, ... is not disputed.

The question they all ask is - - "what is the source" of those genuine miracles.

 

[Athanasias]

In Matt 24:24 and in 2Thess 2 and in Rev 13 the fact that a miracle can take place, a sign, a wonder, ... is not disputed.

The question they all ask is - - "what is the source" of those genuine miracles.

Amen

 

[ob77]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

Do not equate what stupid people do as to being directly guided by Satan's wishes. In truth, Satanist's no nothing about Satan. Blatantly destroying or tearing down is not the modus operandi of Satan, for he wishes to gain the love of all God's children and that is with deception, no matter how long it takes or in what form, for he wishes to be as God is and that is what his aim has been since the beginning. His first attack was on Eve, his next was through the fallen angels to destroy the seed of Adam. Once he fails, he moves on to the next move. Satan cannot create anything, he can only mutate and disrupt the plan of God, and we have been more than willing participants in this throughout time to this day.
Everything that sounds just and well and good is not of God, and that is how he operates, by making us "aware" of things that do not need being aware of in the first place. By creating a sense of urgency of one thing or another is how he advances his cause. No one is aware of any of this, for they have not studied in depth and so they are taken in by things like "Look at this shiny thing over here" Like sheep, he gathers us together to actually undo the plan of God.
Wake up!

 

[Athanasias]

Do not equate what stupid people do as to being directly guided by Satan's wishes. In truth, Satanist's no nothing about Satan. Blatantly destroying or tearing down is not the modus operandi of Satan, for he wishes to gain the love of all God's children and that is with deception, no matter how long it takes or in what form, for he wishes to be as God is and that is what his aim has been since the beginning. His first attack was on Eve, his next was through the fallen angels to destroy the seed of Adam. Once he fails, he moves on to the next move. Satan cannot create anything, he can only mutate and disrupt the plan of God, and we have been more than willing participants in this throughout time to this day.
Everything that sounds just and well and good is not of God, and that is how he operates, by making us "aware" of things that do not need being aware of in the first place. By creating a sense of urgency of one thing or another is how he advances his cause. No one is aware of any of this, for they have not studied in depth and so they are taken in by things like "Look at this shiny thing over here" Like sheep, he gathers us together to actually undo the plan of God.
Wake up!

Guess you have never heard any former Satanist, Exorcist, or FBI or Cops on this subject speak?

 

[FredVB]

Why stop with saying the virgin birth of Christ is an exception? I have heard of some teachers for Christianity that exclude miraculous occurrences including that virgin birth, which is from the conception of Christ by the power of God's Spirit.

The Virgin Birth is explicitly Scriptural. The other supposed Marian miracles are not. They depend for their credibility on scientific verification of the alleged miracles, what the church(es) say about the events, and so on.

In Matt 24:24 and in 2Thess 2 and in Rev 13 the fact that a miracle can take place, a sign, a wonder, ... is not disputed.
The question they all ask is - - "what is the source" of those genuine miracles.

That's true, BobRyan. I wasn't saying that Christ born from a virgin isn't shown from scripture, but that I have heard of some teachers that diminish or dismiss any supernatural event, that virgin birth inclusive, along with other supernatural events in the Bible.

Claims associated with alleged appearances of Mary do not have any scriptural support, and even with any testimony with studies and investigation with anything found for verification, a nonbiblical faith is needed for such, even when there can be belief in miracles, which does have scriptural support.

 

[FredVB]

God is the true source of miracles, which have no explanation but what is possible from the Creator. Others and especially the enemy can have things happen to deceive us, with things seeming to be miracles, but which do not hold up if they can be looked at carefully. Just reading about them is not enough to look carefully and one has to conclude the source of the read material for what reliability it has.

 

[BobRyan]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up

I think that is true - that is one of the options

or that they are from Satan

I think that is another option that they would consider.

But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ.

Isn't that also the case when Jehovah's witnesses convert an atheist to Christianity? Or when a Mormon does it?

If all we ask of them is "did any atheist ever convert to belief in Jesus based on your teaching" they would all say "yes".

Even a non-Christian Jew could have a testimony that there are atheists who convert to Judaism and then accept the Bible teaching on the existence of our Creator God.

I think there are a number of Catholics that would agree that the scenarios I point to are legit.

 

[BobRyan]

That's true, BobRyan. I wasn't saying that Christ born from a virgin isn't shown from scripture, but that I have heard of some teachers that diminish or dismiss any supernatural event, that virgin birth inclusive, along with other supernatural events in the Bible.

That is a good point. Some discount all acts of God as "mere myth" since the "Bible is not a science text book" so then the virgin birth, miracles in the Bible, bodily resurrection of Christ, seven day creation week, Genesis flood are to be "downsized" or at least reduced to "myth"

Claims associated with alleged appearances of Mary do not have any scriptural support, and even with any testimony with studies and investigation with anything found for verification, a nonbiblical faith is needed for such, even when there can be belief in miracles, which does have scriptural support.

interesting

 

[BobRyan]

Do not equate what stupid people do as to being directly guided by Satan's wishes. In truth, Satanist's no nothing about Satan. Blatantly destroying or tearing down is not the modus operandi of Satan, for he wishes to gain the love of all God's children and that is with deception, no matter how long it takes or in what form

An example of that is in Luke 4:41 - where demons cry out loud saying that Jesus is the Son of God! - and of course Jesus commands them to be silent.

But it is easy to see how they were working to confuse people by making it appear that the demons were giving some witness regarding Christ.

In the book of Acts we see people trying to cast out demons "whom Paul preaches" the demons attack them - because in fact they were not saints at all - they were another form of deceived people.

 

[FredVB]

Isn't that also the case when Jehovah's witnesses convert an atheist to Christianity? Or when a Mormon does it?

If all we ask of them is "did any atheist ever convert to belief in Jesus based on your teaching" they would all say "yes".

Even a non-Christian Jew could have a testimony that there are atheists who convert to Judaism and then accept the Bible teaching on the existence of our Creator God.

I think there are a number of Catholics that would agree that the scenarios I point to are legit.

If it happens, which you might know of though I have not heard of it, the Holy Spirit of God works through the individual to come to Christ, and coming to Christ is certainly made possible for them. There are those that have to be pulled from the powerful hold of any cult, still.

That is a good point. Some discount all acts of God as "mere myth" since the "Bible is not a science text book" so then the virgin birth, miracles in the Bible, bodily resurrection of Christ, seven day creation week, Genesis flood are to be "downsized" or at least reduced to "myth"

The Bible has great evidence for its reliability and evident miraculous unity and preservation, other works just do not have that, and it outdates other works that don't come close to that. A revelation that we could expect from God fits that, especially, as it has claim to it within it, so hard to accept miracles can be trusted when we have all that support for what would be revelation from God. Other claimed miracles should still have some close amount of supportive evidence, which it is reasonable to make demand for when such are outside of the Bible with nothing in the Bible suggesting those things that are being called miracles after it or outside of what the Bible speaks of.

An example of that is in Luke 4:41 - where demons cry out loud saying that Jesus is the Son of God! - and of course Jesus commands them to be silent.

But it is easy to see how they were working to confuse people by making it appear that the demons were giving some witness regarding Christ.

In the book of Acts we see people trying to cast out demons "whom Paul preaches" the demons attack them - because in fact they were not saints at all - they were another form of deceived people.

There were other things that would show Jesus is the Son of God, after the angel told Mary the one who would be born to her after the miraculous conception would be called the Son of God. Demons were not to be permitted to be among evidence for that. Demons were not to be trusted for anything, and because demons could lie about anything if there was nothing else showing who Jesus is it could be concluded that it was a demonic suggestion about who Jesus is, and believing that and teaching that is the unforgivable thing. Jesus was not in league with those he was casting out from individual people. At any rate evidence for Jesus, for who he is and for what he was saying was to come later than that.

Demons in the accounts in the book of Acts do not want authority over them from any claiming they have that from something when they really don't, they show their natural response. They don't want Paul himself there casting them out through Jesus Christ still.

 

[FredVB]

If it happens, which you might know of though I have not heard of it, the Holy Spirit of God works through the individual to come to Christ, and coming to Christ is certainly made possible for them. There are those that have to be pulled from the powerful hold of any cult, still.

There are some that say it is all God doing everything that we come to salvation in Christ, as if no one otherwise has ever done anything for that. But this just isn't a biblical teaching. We, and any, need God's initiation for any of that, we don't do anything to come to salvation in Christ without that, but it must be with our response and without that response to come to Christ that is up to us it never happens. God has given command for everyone to come to repentance, Acts 17:30, it is up to their choice, clearly all are not doing so.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

We should not need miracles to generate faith in us; we know from Scripture that Mary and all the saints intercede for us. No question. That being said, Thomas needed see and touch Christ before he believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So why not? Let's just not let those miracles become an idol to us, nor the blessed virgin Mary.

One correction, you stated that Lutheran Churches are not broken into, you are very wrong on that account; as a matter of fact, most of the Lutheran Anglican and Catholic Churches in our area have been broken into multiple times, with both reserved and unconsecrated elements and sacred vessels stolen for the express purposes of desecration and profaining both the sacrament and the sacred vessels. Most recently, an Anglican Church three blocks from the city centre.

Regardless of what the CC says; satinists don't seem to care.

As a result my present congregation consumes all of the consecrated elements so that none remain.

I don't have an issue with reserving consecrated elements but doing so does create an enticement for those who wish to desecrate and profain the Christian faith to do so.

Lately, not in my community thank God, they are more apt just to burn the church down here in Canada, particularly in communities that have reverted back to their pre-colombian pagan roots. Two more in Western Canada last week, one Catholic, one Lutheran. BTW, Lutherans were not involved in the Residential School system at all.

 

[jamiec]

Oh their not limited to the Catholic faith but the ones God gives to Catholics seem to be very dogmatic and show evidence of Catholic dogma. So does the negative Satanic evidence. I use these to teach doctrine to students as evidence. I mean what does a Non Catholic do with that?
What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano

Maybe Catholic churches are more accessible. satan does not mock the Mass; satanists do that.

I think so-called Eucharistic Miracles are - and I apologise for being so blunt - revolting, not to say ghoulish. If real, they utterly disprove the dogma of transsubstantiation. Since the dogma is true, they must be false; so they cannot be from God. It is scandalous and abhorrent that the Church permits these things; which it would be far better to destroy; say, by burning or, better still, by freezing and smashing them. That would be hygienic, clean, and thorough.

How can the Lanciano business possibly be true, if the allegedly miraculous Host is 1200 years old ? That is more than enough time for fraud - or several frauds - to have occurred. And if it is so credible, why are rational people not persuaded by it ?

 

[jamiec]

We should not need miracles to generate faith in us; we know from Scripture that Mary and all the saints intercede for us. No question. That being said, Thomas needed see and touch Christ before he believe that Jesus rose from the dead. So why not? Let's just not let those miracles become an idol to us, nor the blessed virgin Mary.

That is another reason why so-called Eucharistic miracles are objectionable: they destroy the need for faith. But salvation is by grace, through faith - not through rational proofs. Besides, miracles can be worked by the evil spirit. so it is not as though miracles were of great value or importance; if they are so easily faked by the evil one, then they are far too uncertain and untrustworthy to be worth anything, and are best forgotten. Those who have faith, need no miracles. The only worthwhile miracle, is a transformed life and character. Wonders that are gawped at by sensation-seekers, are unworthy to be called miracles. Miracle-seeking is just another form of rubber-necking.

 

[BobRyan]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

You make some very good points about miracles.

And of course the Gospel is filled with miracles that were done as confirmation/affirmation of Christ as Messiah.

Clearly the Bible does not condone the idea of "condemn all miracles so you will always be on the safe side".

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However in Acts 17:11 Paul has his own teaching/doctrine tested by non-Christians who "studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things taught by the Apostle Paul - were SO"

In Gal 1:6-9 Paul says "even though WE (Apostles) or an Angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel other than what has been given - let him be accursed".

In those cases the standard of measure is not "well if they can do a miracle it must be good" -- but rather it is scripture as the measure.

In Mark 7:7-13 Jesus shows again how he measured all magesterium tradition and practice against the Word of God -- and condemned whatever was contrary to scripture.

When Moses put out his staff a miracle happened and it became a serpent. When the Pharaoh's magicians did that - those staffs also appeared to turn into serpents. The Bible does not teach that demons cannot do miracles.

Matt 24:23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘He is over here,’ do not believe him. 24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance.