What is the non Catholic view of this?

[HatGuy]

Like the testimony of people who believe homeopathic solutions have healed them?
Sorry that is all just good old fashioned placebo effect.

My skeptic days are over. But you're welcome to live there.

 

[hiphopopotomus]

My skeptic days are over. But you're welcome to live there.

The mind is a powerful thing.It can heal but it can also kill.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...V__oc1SjANb-XGUhLddsgqg&bvm=bv.96783405,d.dGc

 

[prodromos]

Yes the obsession with Mary is quite strange although praying to a female god makes sense from the perspective that it came about because Mary was a substitute for the female Roman gods.

Have fun trying to demonstrate historically how you suppose that came about.

 

[BobRyan]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

The Bible says of Mary and of Stephen - they were "full of grace" -- and of all mankind "ALL have sinned" Rom 3.

The tendency of many non-Catholics is to simply "go with the Bible" on that point.

Besides 1 John 4:1-8 and Gal 1:6-9 forbid us to simply take a miracle as proof of correct doctrine if it does not fit with the Bible.

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

Interesting argument of the form 'What do Satanists say about all this". i would certainly agree with you they are closely aligned with satan and seem to have a good idea of who their enemy is.

Here is a guy who was raised Catholic and then left Christianity when he went into the Merchant Navy for Canada - then when he got out of that service - he got caught up for a number of months in a Satanist group - that lectured him on just what they thought of the world and of various Christian denominations. He then became a dedicated Christian.

 

[HatGuy]

The mind is a powerful thing.It can heal but it can also kill.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...V__oc1SjANb-XGUhLddsgqg&bvm=bv.96783405,d.dGc

love how quickly science moves to pseudo-science as soon as miracles come up.

Also the link seems to go to something else about bone rituals and stuff.

 

[FredVB]

The Bible says of Mary and of Stephen - they were "full of grace" -- and of all mankind "ALL have sinned" Rom 3.
The tendency of many non-Catholics is to simply "go with the Bible" on that point.
Besides 1 John 4:1-8 and Gal 1:6-9 forbid us to simply take a miracle as proof of correct doctrine if it does not fit with the Bible.

And grace shown in the Bible is unmerited favor. No one has grace that is shown except with being unworthy of that. That any are said to be full of grace, as Mary and Stephen were, shows that they were not worthy, having had sin to some extent in their lives, and having repentance to turn from it, to live according to righteousness of God, even with what is revealed through Christ, with their faith.

The Bible defines for believers what to believe, and is providing the light for how to respond to things we see in this world.

 

[Athanasias]

Let's look at things from a pragmatic and rhetorical POV (rhetorical in that I actually believe in the efficacy of the the Chruch, it's sacraments and sacramentals as vehicles of grace and of God's will):

There is also the issue of when a miracle happens, the dogma/sacrament is proven but would logic not also dictate that when a miracle does not happen in conjunction with the dogma/sacrament, that it would disprove the same said dogma and sacrament.

Mark thanks for this. Wow this post has people thinking and dialoging. Kudos to all of you! Mark I want to apologize if earlier I was prideful or said things in a manner that seemed snobby or hurtful. I certainly do not question the authenticity of the graces, healing, or communions you receive from the Lord Jesus in the Lutheran Eucharist. In fact in Grad school we talked about this issue and how we beleive as Catholics that even non apostolic Churches(that is to us churches that do not retain apostolic succession) certainly can receive and do recieve abundant graces and real communions and healings from their participation in the Eucharist from Jesus. God sees hearts and can and often does act outside of his norms that he himself established(this also happens with the sanctifying graces of Baptism and why we have hope for those babies who die without baptism but that is another story). His love and His will determines these things not our doctrine.

Its not so much the healings that happen in the Eucharistic miracles that I and others find convincing but rather that miracles themselves and negative evidences that seem to point toward the doctrines of the Catholic Church like the many where bread have turned "visibly" into flesh and blood and have been tested by science like that of Lanciano of of any of the modern Eucharistic miracles. And of course things that exorcism cases reveal such as the intercession of Mary and Saints and Angels and the demonics reactions to the sacraments and satanist Black Mass and fear of sacramental theology etc. These to us and to many I teach seem very strong evidence(finger print like evidence) of the truth of the Catholic doctrines of things like the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist or what we call transubstantiation, purgatory, the Immaculate conception of Mary, Saintly intercessions, and many others by these supernatural events. We do not put all our hope into them as we look to Scripture and apostolic Tradition(Gods oral and written word) first but we look also to all evidences such as philosophy as God created man with a mind and natural desire to know him , miracles approved by the Church and tested by science, and even negative evidence from Satanist and exorcism cases to be real signs to us of God truth. God is talking are we listening.

At least that is our view. Its seems logical to me and to many others thats why I love teaching the doctrines of the faith as they are so many evidences for them its hard to deny when one looks at all of them as a whole and puts all the pieces of the puzzle together. I Think with your particular Lutheran view we are much closer and on this then many. Does that makes sense?

 

[Athanasias]

One could consider it as a satanic conspiracy in order to dupe people into thinking that maybe the Catholics are right. The devil has been around long enough to know how we think. I'm not saying I believe this to be the case, just pointing out the argument presented is not necessarily as potent as claimed.

Yeah that is what I am saying. Either these are of Satan and the Catholic Church is corrupt and evil in what they teach or they are of God and the Catholic Church is right. Its not like well they are good and just got some things wrong. At least thats my take.

 

[Athanasias]

Here's a hint about kicking the dust off your feet: It shouldn't involve saying that you're kicking the dust off your feet.

Sorry about that brother. Your right. Perhaps pride got the best of me. I apologize. I truly feel that way when I present these things as I have studied them but perhaps I was a bit snobby in my saying that. I am sorry and thank you for pointing that out to me. Pray for me. God bless you!

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[Cappadocious]

No prob

 

[Athanasias]

Let's look at things from a pragmatic and rhetorical POV (rhetorical in that I actually believe in the efficacy of the the Chruch, it's sacraments and sacramentals as vehicles of grace and of God's will):

There is also the issue of when a miracle happens, the dogma/sacrament is proven but would logic not also dictate that when a miracle does not happen in conjunction with the dogma/sacrament, that it would disprove the same said dogma and sacrament.

Good objection Mark! I do not think this is so for a few reasons. 1). God does not ever have to do supernatural miracles to reveal his truth. His word is enough. So when he does these they are gratuitous for our benefit and we ought to listen. 2). At least in regards to healing sometimes a person can block this effect of grace by his disposition of the will. God may want to heal a person spiritually in the Eucharist or confession or Anointing of sick but the person is not disposed to do so in his will in his soul so does not receive the benefits or full benefits of this. This is a Catholic teaching and I believe a biblical one as the book of Hebrews and 1 Corinthians implies. Example a person must judge his conscience before receiving the Eucharist or else he does not receive the graces the Lord wants him to have but rather commits sacrilege and receives a curse ie..some have died because of this according to St. Paul. This goes in regards to the sacred mysteries/sacraments on a spiritual level but also could on a physical level.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Mark thanks for this. Wow this post has people thinking and dialoging. Kudos to all of you! Mark I want to apologize if earlier I was prideful or said things in a manner that seemed snobby or hurtful. I certainly do not question the authenticity of the graces, healing, or communions you receive from the Lord Jesus in the Lutheran Eucharist. In fact in Grad school we talked about this issue and how we beleive as Catholics that even non apostolic Churches(that is to us churches that do not retain apostolic succession) certainly can receive and do recieve abundant graces and real communions and healings from their participation in the Eucharist from Jesus. God sees hearts and can and often does act outside of his norms that he himself established(this also happens with the sanctifying graces of Baptism and why we have hope for those babies who die without baptism but that is another story). His love and His will determines these things not our doctrine.

Its not so much the healings that happen in the Eucharistic miracles that I and others find convincing but rather that miracles themselves and negative evidences that seem to point toward the doctrines of the Catholic Church like the many where bread have turned "visibly" into flesh and blood and have been tested by science like that of Lanciano of of any of the modern Eucharistic miracles. And of course things that exorcism cases reveal such as the intercession of Mary and Saints and Angels and the demonics reactions to the sacraments and satanist Black Mass and fear of sacramental theology etc. These to us and to many I teach seem very strong evidence(finger print like evidence) of the truth of the Catholic doctrines of things like the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist or what we call transubstantiation, purgatory, the Immaculate conception of Mary, Saintly intercessions, and many others by these supernatural events. We do not put all our hope into them as we look to Scripture and apostolic Tradition(Gods oral and written word) first but we look also to all evidences such as philosophy as God created man with a mind and natural desire to know him , miracles approved by the Church and tested by science, and even negative evidence from Satanist and exorcism cases to be real signs to us of God truth. God is talking are we listening.

At least that is our view. Its seems logical to me and to many others thats why I love teaching the doctrines of the faith as they are so many evidences for them its hard to deny when one looks at all of them as a whole and puts all the pieces of the puzzle together. I Think with your particular Lutheran view we are much closer and on this then many. Does that makes sense?

Good objection Mark! I do not think this is so for a few reasons. 1). God does not ever have to do supernatural miracles to reveal his truth. His word is enough. So when he does these they are gratuitous for our benefit and we ought to listen. 2). At least in regards to healing sometimes a person can block this effect of grace by his disposition of the will. God may want to heal a person spiritually in the Eucharist or confession or Anointing of sick but the person is not disposed to do so in his will in his soul so does not receive the benefits or full benefits of this. This is a Catholic teaching and I believe a biblical one as the book of Hebrews and 1 Corinthians implies. Example a person must judge his conscience before receiving the Eucharist or else he does not receive the graces the Lord wants him to have but rather commits sacrilege and receives a curse ie..some have died because of this according to St. Paul. This goes in regards to the sacred mysteries/sacraments on a spiritual level but also could on a physical level.

No worries, I am not going to be angered because a Catholic friend cites the historic Catholic position on a subject; I will generally always defend my Lutheran one though, nor do I wish to detract from what you have written.

I agree whole heartedly with your second post quoted above, but a third point could also be added, that while all who seek grace in the sacraments and God's word will receive it; only those who God wishes to bestow visible, physical miracles on will receive them.

 

[Athanasias]

No worries, I am not going to be angered because a Catholic friend cites the historic Catholic position on a subject; I will generally always defend my Lutheran one though, nor do I wish to detract from what you have written.

I agree whole heartedly with your second post quoted above, but a third point could also be added, that while all who seek grace in the sacraments and God's word will receive it; only those who God wishes to bestow visible, physical miracles on will receive them.

agreed. Well said!

 

[Daniel Stinson]

Is this the document you're referencing?

Satanism & the Eucharist

 

[Athanasias]

Is this the document you're referencing?

Satanism & the Eucharist

Well there is one I posted its actually this one and its only one as I have done years of study from many sources on these things:

http://saintfactory.com/satanism-the-eucharist/

But I am also referring to years of listening to and reading from former Satanist like Betty Brennen, Catholic priest who used to council victims of Satanic abuse and cults like Fr. Pacwa, Demonologist like Adam Blai, and Catholic Exorcist like Fr. Gary Thomas, and Fr. Gabriel Amorth on these issue of Satanic abuse and negative evidence.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

As a Lutheran, LCMS member, we tend to be demographically: rural, small-town, or greater-metropolitian in nature. Many alternative lifestyles are frowned upon and aren't acceptable.

Most Satanist congregate in larger numbers within larger cities, obviously closer to the media as well. Alternative lifestyles and larger quantities of various religions are the norm, especially towards the downtown areas.

I'm not so certain your data doesn't have demographic biased data. Also, we Lutherans consider a congregation over 1,000 to be a mega-Church, so I don't think a Satanist would feel as effective in their efforts to achieve public disruption.

I also believe there are some with Inquisition retribution, that's more easily directed towards Roman-Catholicism than what's generally associated with other denominations. The Eucharist is attacked because of what it means to Roman-Catholicism, not because of what it means to Satanist.

 

[Daniel Stinson]

1 Corinthians 11:17-34

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+11:17-34&version=ESV

 

[Athanasias]

As a Lutheran, LCMS member, we tend to be demographically: rural, small-town, or greater-metropolitian in nature. Many alternative lifestyles are frowned upon and aren't acceptable.

Most Satanist congregate in larger numbers within larger cities, obviously closer to the media as well. Alternative lifestyles and larger quantities of various religions are the norm, especially towards the downtown areas.

I'm not so certain your data doesn't have demographic biased data. Also, we Lutherans consider a congregation over 1,000 to be a mega-Church, so I don't think a Satanist would feel as effective in their efforts to achieve public disruption.

I also believe there are some with Inquisition retribution, that's more easily directed towards Roman-Catholicism than what's generally associated with other denominations. The Eucharist is attacked because of what it means to Roman-Catholicism, not because of what it means to Satanist.

No that does not seem so with many of these cases. You have to understand in my line of work I get to talk to clergy some of them involved in deliverance ministry and some exorcist on a weekly and monthly basis. I have also seen and talked to so many of the people that have had influence in the occult and are haunted by it now with infestations. I have heard from and read several former Satanist in high echelon circles. I am friends with a few FBI agents and police offices from around the country. Some of the most disturbing areas infested with satanic ritual are not the big cities but rather the small rural areas. The same goes with infested houses as I witnessed a Lady who had an infested house in the rural areas have a house exorcism done by one of our local exorcist(we have 2 in our diocese). A friend who is a cop busted a black mass and arrested a Satanic priest years ago also in one of these hidden rural areas. They try to hide. The FBI and Cops generally know about these guys. Authentic Satanist try to remain hidden(unlike the lower level agry teenage "I want attention I am mad at the world" group who try to make themselves known publicly by holding "black masses" at college campus's and bragging about it.). Authentic Satanist in higher echelons are very secretive about their cult. They do not want to be found. You would not recognize them if you seen them. They are your average person some of them are the average lawyers, psychiatrist, doctors, musicians, etc who blend in with the rest of society.

Now they do hate Christianity in general and the Catholic Church especially because it is most sacred to Christ since he founded it and her sacraments and that is why they pervert them in Black Mass. One thing that several former high echelon Satanist priest have talked about was their knowledge of transubstantiation and their hatred of the Eucharist because it is Christ himself(that is why the Black mass uses a consecrated host and stab, spit, and defecate on it as part of their perverse worship. Instead of elevating the Host like in Mass they throw it down and trample on it. Not because of the hate for the Church,which they have certainly, but because they know its truly Christ Jesus and hate him.) They can tell which host are Christ and which ones are not consecrated by the intense hatred they have for Him. This is a preternatural demonic gift given to them by demons that mocks the ecstasies that the saints have had over the years who also can sense and know which host are Christ truly present and which have not been consecrated by the power of the Holy Spirit and the intense love for Christ. Read the article I posted it actually goes into that too. This seems to be across the board as I have heard from FBI in west coast and Midwest and have heard cops, exorcist from all over the world, demonologist, and former high echelon satanist themselves reveal these things. Its true but not many are aware of this as I said most of it is kept secret. Our Deacon had to chase out a person and track them down after receiving holy Communion and walkign out without taking it and tell him to eat the host or give it back to him.Many teens are bribed to go to communion by higher echelon satanist and steal conscrated host at mass and offered promises of drugs and other sexual pleasures if they do that. That is also the first stage of lower satanism and what former satanist call "the hook" .

As regards to your quote from 1 Corintians 11 Yes I agree. I talked about that earlier with Mark on here. Chapter 10 also shows that the sacrifice of the Mass and real presence should not be mocked.

 

[BobRyan]

No that does not seem so with many of these cases. You have to understand in my line of work I get to talk to clergy some of them involved in deliverance ministry and some exorcist on a weekly and monthly basis. I have also seen and talked to so many of the people that have had influence in the occult and are haunted by it now with infestations. I have heard from and read several former Satanist in high echelon circles. I am friends with a few FBI agents and police offices from around the country. Some of the most disturbing areas infested with satanic ritual are not the big cities but rather the small rural areas. The same goes with infested houses as I witnessed a Lady who had an infested house in the rural areas have a house exorcism done by one of our local exorcist(we have 2 in our diocese).

Then this guy is talking about something you would know about.

However when it comes to what the demons actually teach - I think it is more important to counter their teachings with the Bible.

My inlaws had a connection with spiritism and Catholicism that they blended - and this was a common thing in Puerto Rico, as in a number of other Latin American countries.

 

[Athanasias]

Then this guy is talking about something you would know about.

However when it comes to what the demons actually teach - I think it is more important to counter their teachings with the Bible.

My inlaws had a connection with spiritism and Catholicism that they blended - and this was a common thing in Puerto Rico, as in a number of other Latin American countries.

Yeah this happens in the Mexican community and other poor areas that mix catholicism with the occult( some do Santeria or voodoo depending on where you live) Pure demonic influence and scary. Mexico is so infested with demonic and the occult the Bishops and one exorcist did a nationwide exorcism on it.
https://www.ncregister.com/daily-ne...omes-infested-with-demons-catholics-exorcize/




I agree that they need to learn scripture, the Word of God it will help them. Many are stuck in addiction and superstition. Demons all over rule the gangs, drugs, and much of the psuedo-religion that mixes Catholicism with occult. Where you find drugs, addiction, rape, prosititution, abortion, and murder there is almost always demons surrounding these areas with various influences (often they hide from us but not from the 3rd world or poorer countries). I work with a solid Mexican priest and we actually catechize the American Mexicans and teach them how harmful such things are and try to get them to learn the obey the Gospel. This is why infestations of houses happens, much violence, and drugs. I have heard one exorcist tell me that he knows from former members of some gangs that most of the drugs that come into the US has had satanical curses put on them too make them more potent and addictive. I believe it after seeing what I have seen in some communities.