What is the non Catholic view of this?

[Athanasias]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

 

[TheBarrd]

Never really gave it much thought, actually.
I believe in miracles...I just don't think that they are limited to the Catholic faith.

I have to admit...that one about the host turning into visible flesh and visible blood...that's kind of creepy.

 

[Athanasias]

Never really gave it much thought, actually.
I believe in miracles...I just don't think that they are limited to the Catholic faith.

I have to admit...that one about the host turning into visible flesh and visible blood...that's kind of creepy.

Oh their not limited to the Catholic faith but the ones God gives to Catholics seem to be very dogmatic and show evidence of Catholic dogma. So does the negative Satanic evidence. I use these to teach doctrine to students as evidence. I mean what does a Non Catholic do with that?
What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

 

[TheBarrd]

I can't speak for other non-Catholics.
As for me, I don't really worry too much about it.
I mean, I know that God tends to meet each of us where we are, you know?
I don't think I would be given a vision of Mary, for instance...
But I have seen a real, live angel.

 

[Athanasias]

I'm fairly sure God would not turn the host into real flesh and blood for me. He would not want me to vomit...

yeah but what do you do with that the fact that he has? Does it not seem to be strong evidence for the Catholic Dogma? Unless your a relativist you must make some kind of stance on these.

 

[Liberasit]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"). This Shrine which has 69 miracles recognized by the Vatican so far and thousands of non recognized ones by the medical community and locals has brough many to the brink of faith.. Medical science has been puzzled by these and even some atheist doctors who have seen the healings have been brought to the brink of conversion because of these. So what do protestant do with these? They either have to say that these are made up(like the Atheist medical materialist do) or that they are from Satan(like the Fundies do). But the fruits seem to bring about conversion to Jesus Christ. Does this not point toward Mary's real intercession and her Immaculate Conception?? Just curious what do non-Catholic Christians do with these. And the same goes for the Eucharistic Miracles like that of Lanciano which are on display today where a host turned into visible flesh and wine visible blood which has been scientifically tested also? Does this not point toward the Catholic dogma?

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

It is something the RCC uses to brainwash its adherents and keep them obedient.

God has a track record, in scripture, of using extremely unworthy people. There is no question of an immaculate conception for them.

 

[Soyeong]

If God only did miracles for people who had all of their doctrine right, then we'd all be in trouble.

What about the strong negative evidence that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worshio service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devlish doctrine rejected by reformers then why does Satan mock it so much. Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

I think it can be easy to get carried away with trying to read between the lines. There are people facing real persecution who are dying or being imprisoned for their faith, so should we take that as confirmation that their doctrine was correct?

 

[prodromos]

I often get this question ignored when I ask it from many non Catholics. I assume they are trying to be nice. In the Catholic faith we have many documented "doctrinal miracles" or miracles associated with dogma's. Such as the miracles at Lourdes(a place where the BVM told St. Bernadette that She was "the Immaculate Conception"

As far as I am concerned, this is a huge red flag. I honestly do not believe God has such bad grammar.

 

[TheBarrd]

If God only did miracles for people who had all of their doctrine right, then we'd all be in trouble.



I think it can be easy to get carried away with trying to read between the lines. There are people facing real persecution who are dying or being imprisoned for their faith, so should we take that as confirmation that their doctrine was correct?

Very good points, Soyeong!

 

[Cappadocious]

I

What is the non Catholic view of this?...I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

These are probably regarded the same way that Catholics would regard the miracles of St. Photios and St. Mark of Ephesus.

 

[Athanasias]

I

These are probably regarded the same way that Catholics would regard the miracles of St. Photios and St. Mark of Ephesus.

Being we have Eastern Catholics(not all Catholics are Roman) we probably would have no issue with the miracles of Photius and St. Mark. Are they doctrinal ones like the Catholic ones?

 

[Athanasias]

As far as I am concerned, this is a huge red flag. I honestly do not believe God has such bad grammar.

Hmm well at least that answers the question kind of. So would you say St. Bernadette is a liar or the Blessed Virgin Mary has bad grammar or that it is a demon and the Catholic Church is evil preaching doctrines of demons?

 

[Athanasias]

If God only did miracles for people who had all of their doctrine right, then we'd all be in trouble.



I think it can be easy to get carried away with trying to read between the lines. There are people facing real persecution who are dying or being imprisoned for their faith, so should we take that as confirmation that their doctrine was correct?

OH God does miracles for all who call on him. But what makes the Catholic ones so special are they seem to be doctrinal in nature and point toward Catholic doctrine. I think your kindas dodging the issue here. Either they are false and satanical and the Catholic Church is a huge liar and needs to repent and so are those who are healed(including the medical community who approved them) or its Satanical and the Catholic Church is evil. Or they are real and the Catholic Church is right. There can be no middle ground here.

 

[Soyeong]

OH God does miracles for all who call on him. But what makes the Catholic ones so special are they seem to be doctrinal in nature and point toward Catholic doctrine. I think your kindas dodging the issue here. Either they are false and satanical and the Catholic Church is a huge liar and needs to repent and so are those who are healed(including the medical community who approved them) or its Satanical and the Catholic Church is evil. Or they are real and the Catholic Church is right. There can be no middle ground here.

I'm not overly familiar with all of the miracle claims. Will you explain why they confirm Catholic doctrine, but the miracles done for others or the persecution of others doesn't confirm their doctrine? God doesn't just answer the prayers of those in one particular denomination or even religion.

 

[Athanasias]

I'm not overly familiar with all of the miracle claims. Will you explain why they confirm Catholic doctrine, but the miracles done for others or the persecution of others doesn't confirm their doctrine? God doesn't just answer the prayers of those in one particular denomination or even religion.

Sure I will be happy to provide what I find as strong miraculous and negative evidence for the Catholic faith and why. These are part of what I teach to students considering the Church from non Catholic backrounds. We look at all evidences for the faith like a detective. We start with scripture and tradition(history) and go on to miracles and negative evidennce. Here is some of that. There are ones such as the shrine at Lourdes which healings still take place today(69 official) and thousands of unofficial and the non Catholic medical communities witness this and even some Atheist Doctors witness these and have converted. They show the doctrine of Mary's intercession and when the blessed mother appeared to St. Bernadette she told her her name was "the Immaculate Conception". This seems to point toward the truth of the Marian Dogma of Mary's IC and heavenly intercession..

The Many thousands of modern and ancient eucharistic miracles tested by science where host and the wine had bled or turned into "visible" flesh and blood many of these also include healings and visions from those who have been healed teaching the Catholic Doctrine of the real presence or transsubstantiation.

What is even more interesting is there is strong negative evidence for the Catholic truths and teachings of the Mass being the Holy Sacrifice of Christ and transubstantiation. FBI and police and former Satanist will tell you that Satanist mock the Mass and not just any worship service. Satanist also break into Catholic Churches and steal consecrated host to vilify in black Mass. They do not break into Lutheran or Methodist Churches or others ect to do that. They know the presense is real. All one has to do is listen to a former Satanist and They have "black Mass". they do not have black "Service". Its a sacrificial mockery of the sacrifice of Mass and other Catholic sacraments. They also mock the intercession of saints. So If the sacrifice of MAss is a devilish false doctrine as taught by protestant reformers then why does Satan mock it so much? Does not the devil mock what he hates the most? If it was already false worship he would have no reason to mock it. But that is the principle thing he mocks is Catholics Mass and dogma. I think these are strong evidences for the Catholic faith and her dogmatic truths.

Does that help??

In Jesus through Mary,

Athanasias

 

[prodromos]

Hmm well at least that answers the question kind of. So would you say St. Bernadette is a liar or the Blessed Virgin Mary has bad grammar or that it is a demon and the Catholic Church is evil preaching doctrines of demons?

I don't have an interest in judging one way or the other since it is outside the Church from the Orthodox POV

 

[prodromos]

OH God does miracles for all who call on him. But what makes the Catholic ones so special are they seem to be doctrinal in nature

Another red flag right there.

 

[Athanasias]

I don't have an interest in judging one way or the other since it is outside the Church from the Orthodox POV

So your answer is to beat around the bush and not take a stance? Why not just say St. Bernadette is a liar or the Blessed Virgin Mary has bad grammar or that it is a demon and the Catholic Church is evil preaching doctrines of demons? Wouldn't that be easier. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

 

[Cappadocious]

Being we have Eastern Catholics(not all Catholics are Roman) we probably would have no issue with the miracles of Photius and St. Mark. Are they doctrinal ones like the Catholic ones?

I get the idea: That the holiness of the saints is what is being confirmed, rather than their actions or ideas.

However I picked those two, in particular, because they aren't just saints that had disagreements with Rome or certain theologies, a la Gregory Palamas. Rather, St. Photios was anathematized by a council considered ecumenical by the Roman Catholic Church, and St. Mark played a large role in undermining the reception of another Roman council, the Council of Florence-Ferrara. These miracles are understood as confirming their doctrine and their anti-unionist stances. The fact that some Eastern Catholics venerate St. Photios and St. Mark has more to do with the confused state of the Eastern Catholics than anything else.

So (for those who speak in so-called apologetics), the fact that these saints have been confirmed with miracles is a challenge to Rome's doctrinal authority. What you're saying is: Yes, St. Mark taught against Roman Catholic doctrine and fought the union with Rome, but his miracles are just about his personal holiness? Would you say the same about a miracle associated with Eutyches? if we consider "doctrinal miracles" to be proofs of truth, that is. Which, really, I don't think we ought to.

 

[Cappadocious]

So your answer is to beat around the bush and not take a stance? Why not just say St. Bernadette is a liar or the Blessed Virgin Mary has bad grammar or that it is a demon and the Catholic Church is evil preaching doctrines of demons? Wouldn't that be easier. Let your yes be yes and your no be no.

What if he's not a liar or possessed or crazy, but just mistaken?