What is modesty? And how is modesty expressed in society?

[Marcel_Prix]

Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this topic is directly relevant to politics however, its something that I've been very interested in. If you know where the thread would fit better feel free to recommend me the right forum, for this type of discussion.

For instance, I have noticed the topic of modesty comes up when I talk about a lot of my interests. When I was talking about. For instance, the difference between the "High Church" and the "Low Churches."

Or for instance, I noticed that Catholics(which I am), tend to want to "dress up" to go to Church. I know the Anglican Church tends to also be more "formal."

Meanwhile in some Churches in America, don't want to same any names since I don't know much about the topic. I heard what are called the "low churches" prefer a more "casual style."

I have also noticed that in some subcultures in America there's this concept of "Anti-pretentiousness" where dressing up too much is seen as "pretentious."

Now that I'm studying French culture more closely I notice they have a concept called, "Sophistication" which seems to be diametrically opposed to "Modesty."

I'm am not saying either approach to life is the "right one." What I'm trying to get at is to explore more to truly understand these concepts more.

 

[Brother-Mike]

Some philosophical considerations, in no necessary order:

1. What do you mean by “modesty”. i.e. there is a wide-range of interpretations and nuance to this word. For example, by raising the issue of church dress you tip your hat towards the dress/appearance meaning, but there’s also behavioral connotations.
2. The behavioral connotation seems to have nothing to do with how a person dresses. e.g. if I said “Her personality is very modest” do you form a sense that she’s dressed any one way or another? I don’t. I can just as easily imagine a nicely dressed woman as much as a poorly dressed one.
3. Sophistication to me has no bearing on modesty: if you say “she’s very sophisticated” I can just as easily imagine a modest woman as I can a brash, argumentative one. The Queen was sophisticated and modest.

 

[HTacianas]

Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this topic is directly relevant to politics however, its something that I've been very interested in. If you know where the thread would fit better feel free to recommend me the right forum, for this type of discussion.

For instance, I have noticed the topic of modesty comes up when I talk about a lot of my interests. When I was talking about. For instance, the difference between the "High Church" and the "Low Churches."

Or for instance, I noticed that Catholics(which I am), tend to want to "dress up" to go to Church. I know the Anglican Church tends to also be more "formal."

Meanwhile in some Churches in America, don't want to same any names since I don't know much about the topic. I heard what are called the "low churches" prefer a more "casual style."

I have also noticed that in some subcultures in America there's this concept of "Anti-pretentiousness" where dressing up too much is seen as "pretentious."

Now that I'm studying French culture more closely I notice they have a concept called, "Sophistication" which seems to be diametrically opposed to "Modesty."

I'm am not saying either approach to life is the "right one." What I'm trying to get at is to explore more to truly understand these concepts more.

The Didascalia has a section on modesty for men (chapter II) and another on modesty for women (chapter III). It's mostly to do with manner of dress, but also conduct of married people. Both men and women are warned against dressing in a manner that would cause another to lust after them. It will give you an interesting take on what is (or was) called the "women's liberation" movement's idea of the oppression of women in manner of dress. The standard for manner of dress for men and women has always been the same, and the Didascalia is one of the primary sources for it in the Christian world.

Didascalia Apostolorum

 

[Sabertooth]

I see modesty as

1. not overly flashy in one's clothing, jewelry, makeup, etc.;
2. adequately covering one's body or
3. not being sexually suggestive in speech or behavior.

(This topic probably belongs in Christian Philosophy & Ethics.)

​

Q: What is the difference between a well-dressed man on a bicycle

and a poorly dressed man on a tricycle...?​

Spoiler: Answer

Attire!

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hey guys,
I'm not sure if this topic is directly relevant to politics however, its something that I've been very interested in. If you know where the thread would fit better feel free to recommend me the right forum, for this type of discussion.

For instance, I have noticed the topic of modesty comes up when I talk about a lot of my interests. When I was talking about. For instance, the difference between the "High Church" and the "Low Churches."

Or for instance, I noticed that Catholics(which I am), tend to want to "dress up" to go to Church. I know the Anglican Church tends to also be more "formal."

Meanwhile in some Churches in America, don't want to same any names since I don't know much about the topic. I heard what are called the "low churches" prefer a more "casual style."

I have also noticed that in some subcultures in America there's this concept of "Anti-pretentiousness" where dressing up too much is seen as "pretentious."

Now that I'm studying French culture more closely I notice they have a concept called, "Sophistication" which seems to be diametrically opposed to "Modesty."

I'm am not saying either approach to life is the "right one." What I'm trying to get at is to explore more to truly understand these concepts more.

Welcome to CF! I never heard of such a thing as high and low so I looked it up . This is what it says:

In Anglican Christianity, low church refers to those who give little emphasis to ritual. The term is most often used in a liturgical sense, denoting a Protestant emphasis, whereas "high church" denotes an emphasis on ritual, often Anglo-Catholic. The term was initially pejorative.

Maybe this will help?
Blessings.

 

[Sabertooth]

Meanwhile in some Churches in America, don't want to same any names since I don't know much about the topic. I heard what are called the "low churches" prefer a more "casual style."

If a casual dress code gets more people into church, I think that is a win!

Little Country Church, Love Song (1971)

 

[FireDragon76]

Welcome to CF! I never heard of such a thing as high and low so I looked it up . This is what it says:

In Anglican Christianity, low church refers to those who give little emphasis to ritual. The term is most often used in a liturgical sense, denoting a Protestant emphasis, whereas "high church" denotes an emphasis on ritual, often Anglo-Catholic. The term was initially pejorative.

Maybe this will help?
Blessings.

"High Church" and "low church" refer to ecclessiology, not aesthetics. What you're thinking of is called Ritualism. High Churchmen did tend to emphasize the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper, but that's because it stems from their ecclessiology, not their love of ritual for purely aesthetic reasons.

 

[bèlla]

I see modesty as

1. not overly flashy in one's clothing, jewelry, makeup, etc.;

In your opinion, what defines flashiness in makeup? You’re welcome to expound on the others too if you’d like.

~bella

 

[bèlla]

My personal definition for modesty includes:

Well fitting attire that isn’t excessively tight, short, or revealing.
Suitable for the occasion or setting.
Elegant and respectable.

~bella

 

[Sabertooth]

In your opinion, what defines flashiness in makeup? You’re welcome to expound on the others too if you’d like.

~bella

I am not sure that I can define a line, but its extremes stand out.

1. Heart motivation seems to be an issue. Is one wearing any of the above to flaunt there wealth? Being an Aspie, I would not likely pick up that intention,* but I have heard people admit to doing so before.
2. The base for some of that will be mitigated by the setting itself. Some of that is appropriate at a "black tie" affair and swimwear is appropriate at a beach or pool, but not at most other places.

*At a distance, I would not notice the difference between a Rolex and a Timex watch. (I only ever wore Casio and, now, FitBit.)

 

[ZephBonkerer]

My personal definition for modesty includes:

Well fitting attire that isn’t excessively tight, short, or revealing.
Suitable for the occasion or setting.
Elegant and respectable.

~bella

I think this is very reasonable. Sometimes we tend to take general guidelines and seek to turn them into some kind of legal code. Things like "skirts must be no more than three inches from the knees." But there really is no good way to do that with clothing without it becoming distasteful to anyone who values style and individuality. Legalism is unworkable in practice in part because the Word of God is not the Tax Code and was not intended to be read as such.

It's also the setting and context that matters. What may be perfectly fine in the bedroom, at the poolside, or at a burlesque show probably would not work in Church. So long as you steer clear from the obviously extreme, it is perfectly fine to use the "I know it when I see it" standard.

Aside from that, 1 Timothy 2:9-10 and 1 Peter 3:3-4 do not really address "modesty" as we often refer to it. Instead Paul was asking women to not go overboard with designer labels and more jewelry than Mister T.

 

[Paidiske]

My personal definition of modesty is: investing more in doing good, than looking good. That may or may not correlate with levels of formality, and is not really about aesthetics.