VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[keras]

All those verses are exclusively related to the pre-Trib rapture.

But there is no verse that actually says the Lord will rapture the Church to heaven.
In their delusions, the 'rapture' believers have to make verses fit their wrong belief.

Your verses are inapplicable to our discussion. They do not relate to the Trib.

Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 23, 1 Corinthians 10:13, + Quite right, they belong to the Sixth Seal disaster, the fiery trial, 1 Peter 4:12, when we must stand firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection.
THEN - we will be; accounted worthy to stand in the Presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:36b After He Returns.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

If you get anyone else to agree with this litany of confused opinion, I would be surprised.

Realize that it is error and brings down a curse, to move around or add to and take away from; the given sequence and Words of Revelation.

You didn’t refute anything.

But there is no verse that actually says the Lord will rapture the Church to heaven.
In their delusions, the 'rapture' believers have to make verses fit their wrong belief.

Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, Psalms 23, 1 Corinthians 10:13, + Quite right, they belong to the Sixth Seal disaster, the fiery trial, 1 Peter 4:12, when we must stand firm in our faith and trust in the Lord for His protection.
THEN - we will be; accounted worthy to stand in the Presence of the Son of Man. Luke 21:36b After He Returns.

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You didn’t refute anything.

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus?

What’s disastrous about the 6th seal? How many people are killed in the 6th seal?

 

[keras]

You didn’t refute anything

You never proved anything. John 14:3, a verse that never mentions heaven, actually weakens your case.

The fact there is no Bible verse to prove a rapture to heaven and there is a lot of verses which say it is impossible, means you are never going to win this discussion.

What’s disastrous about the 6th seal? How many people are killed in the 6th seal?

It will be Gods solution to the Middle East crisis.
The ME will be virtually depopulated, Zephaniah 2:4-6, and many will die around the world. Jeremiah 25:33
YOU will be here to experience it.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

You never proved anything. John 14:3, a verse that never mentions heaven, actually weakens your case.

The fact there is no Bible verse to prove a rapture to heaven and there is a lot of verses which say it is impossible, means you are never going to win this discussion.

It will be Gods solution to the Middle East crisis.
The ME will be virtually depopulated, Zephaniah 2:4-6, and many will die around the world. Jeremiah 25:33
YOU will be here to experience it.

Here you go, again: “John 14:3, a verse that never mentions heaven.”

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

“where I am” is where?

John 14:3 also says, “I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” —— That’s the rapture to Heaven.

In 1 Th 4:16-17, the dead in Christ are raised and changed into their glorified bodies. Then, we are changed into our glorified bodies. Together, we are taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is fulfilled. We observe the Trib from Heaven. We return with Jesus in the 2A, in Rev 19:14.

 

[keras]

Here you go, again: “John 14:3, a verse that never mentions heaven.”

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

“where I am” is where?

Here you go again, assuming, guessing, conjecturing and supposing, that heaven is our destination.
John 14:3a is a Prophecy about the new Jerusalem, which comes down to the renewed earth, after the Millennium.

John 14:3b refers to the glorious Return, when those who have proved their faith will be gathered to Jesus; where He will be then. As Matthew 24:39-31 proves.

In 1 Th 4:16-17, the dead in Christ are raised and changed into their glorified bodies. Then, we are changed into our glorified bodies. Together, we are taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

The Judgement Seat of Christ is fulfilled. We observe the Trib from Heaven. We return with Jesus in the 2A, in Rev 19:14.

You falsely change Pauls Prophecy describing the glorious Return, to a time before the Great Trib, - 3 1/2 years before the Return.
This idea is complete error and will never happen.
It is impossible for 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 to happen before the final Judgment.

Rapture believers are locked into their delusion. When the fiery test comes, they will fall like ninepins, not knowing which way to turn, Luke 21:25-26

 

[Douggg]

Your quote from Hebrews 11<13-16 fails to prove what I asked. It does not say the Lord will take His people to heaven at all. it Promises the new Jerusalem, which we know from Revelation 21:1, will come down from heaven after the Millennium.

Re: the new nation of Beulah, to be established in all of the holy Land: The Prophecy of Isaiah 62:1-5 will come to pass before Jesus Returns.
Jesus said in Matthew 21:43, that the Christian peoples will be the nation that has the Kingdom on earth.

The belief of a 'rapture to heaven', of the Church, is a lie which causes those who believe it to reject and rearrange scripture, to their eternal discredit.

The rapture/resurrection event is the redemption of our bodies into everlasting incorruptible bodies.

In Luke 21:28,

Luke 21:
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

The parable of the fig tree is also in Matthew 24, Mark 13.

Redemption of our bodies, keras. Our souls have already been redeemed. Jesus is not saying a thousand years after the parable of the fig tree generation, but that specific generation.

 

[keras]

The rapture/resurrection event is the redemption of our bodies into everlasting incorruptible bodies.

In Luke 21:28,

Luke 21:
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;

The parable of the fig tree is also in Matthew 24, Mark 13.

Redemption of our bodies, keras. Our souls have already been redeemed. Jesus is not saying a thousand years after the parable of the fig tree generation, but that specific generation.

No Douggg, redemption does not mean instant transformation into immortality. We are Redeemed when we become Christians and have the Promise of Eternal life, which does not take place until after the Millennium.
The belief of a bodily transformation is false teaching and cannot happen before the final Judgment.

 

[Douggg]

No Douggg, redemption does not mean instant transformation into immortality. We are Redeemed when we become Christians and have the Promise of Eternal life, which does not take place until after the Millennium.
The belief of a bodily transformation is false teaching and cannot happen before the final Judgment.

Redemption of our souls takes place the second we become Christians. Redemption of the our bodies takes place at the time of the parable of the fig tree generation.

Luke 21:
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

You are wrong that the redemption of the bodies of all Christians does not take place until after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.

But regarding the parable of the fig tree generation when the things Jesus spoke of begin to come to pass. And to look up - to meet the Lord in air, 1Thessalonians4:17.

You can't get out of this one, keras, because our redemption draws near when the things Jesus spoke of begin to come to pass.

 

[keras]

Redemption of our souls takes place the second we become Christians. Redemption of the our bodies takes place at the time of the parable of the fig tree generation.

We get Jesus' Promise of immortality when we become Christians. There is not change as yet, as we need to prove our faith by living godly lives, doing good works and keeping the Commandments. That was all required of those who have died already, but as we see in the Prophesies, we of the fig tree generation must prove our trust in the Lords protection during the fiery trial which will come to test us. 1 Peter 4:12

You are wrong that the redemption of the bodies of all Christians does not take place until after the Millennium at the Great White Throne Judgment.

I quoted scripture; Paul does not say 'all'. Revelation 20:4 says; the rest of the dead must wait.......
YOU are wrong.

You can't get out of this one, keras, because our redemption draws near when the things Jesus spoke of begin to come to pass.

Our opportunity to prove how we trust in the Lord as disasters strike, will consolidate our redemption and maintain our name in the Book of Life.

Do you really not realize that Gods people are all on earth; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, when the man of sin sits in the Temple, as Prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4? Then; half of them are taken to a place of safety on earth Rev 12:14. the other half must remain because they violated the new Covenant. Rev 12:17 A removal to heaven was and now is still never going to happen.

There is quite a list of things you can't get out of. Your only hope is to renounce all your false doctrines and change to promoting what the Prophets actually said.

 

[Douggg]

I quoted scripture; Paul does not say 'all'. Revelation 20:4 says; the rest of the dead must wait.......
YOU are wrong.

No, you are wrong. Paul was not saying "all" in 1Thessalonains4:15-17, but them alive at the time of the rapture resurrection - to meet the Lord in the air. Revelation 20, at the time of the Great Tribulation does not say "to meet the Lord in the air"

Our opportunity to prove how we trust in the Lord as disasters strike, will consolidate our redemption and maintain our name in the Book of Life.

keras, you can't get away from what Jesus said in Luke 21:28.

28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Do you really not realize that Gods people are all on earth; Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, when the man of sin sits in the Temple, as Prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4? Then; half of them are taken to a place of safety on earth Rev 12:14. the other half must remain because they violated the new Covenant. Rev 12:17 A removal to heaven was and now is still never going to happen.

No, you are wrong the rapture/resurrection redemption of our bodies takes place before the transgression of desolation act by the Antichrist.

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[keras]

No, you are wrong. Paul was not saying "all" in 1Thessalonains4:15-17, but them alive at the time of the rapture resurrection - to meet the Lord in the air.

I was referring to 1 Thess 4:14, where it says Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This means only the GT martyrs, as per Rev 20:4

1 Thess 417 is not a 'rapture/resurrection', as you like to imagine. It will be a transportation to where Jesus will be, initially in the atmospheric clouds, then Jerusalem.

you can't get away from what Jesus said in Luke 21:28.

our redemption draws nigh. So when these things happen, which will be the wrath of God on the godless peoples, THEN; we will know the glorious Return is not too far away.
If you think -look up...... means people will be taken up, then you have again added to scripture with the totally impossible idea of being raptured to heaven.
Spare us your fanciful charts, they just show your errors and confusion.

 

[Douggg]

I was referring to 1 Thess 4:14, where it says Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This means only the GT martyrs, as per Rev 20:4

In 1Thessalonians4:14, Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him when he comes for the rapture/resurrection to reunite their souls with their redeemed bodies. And the living in Christ will be changed into their eternal everlasting bodies at that same event.

The great tribulation martyrs are resurrected after Jesus has returned and the millennium begun, the first resurrection relative to the millennium. Nothing about the living in Christ changed at that time.

1 Thess 417 is not a 'rapture/resurrection', as you like to imagine. It will be a transportation to where Jesus will be, initially in the atmospheric clouds, then Jerusalem.

1Thessalonians4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

No going to Jerusalem in that verse, keras. Plus there is no changing of the living in Christ in Revelation 20:4-6.

our redemption draws nigh. So when these things happen, which will be the wrath of God on the godless peoples, THEN; we will know the glorious Return is not too far away.

Redemption of our bodies, keras. Our souls were redeemed the second we became Christians.

If you think -look up...... means people will be taken up, then you have again added to scripture with the totally impossible idea of being raptured to heaven.

So when the things that Jesus talked about preceding His Second Coming begin to happen - you are not going to look up for the redemption of your body ?

 

[keras]

In 1Thessalonians4:14, Jesus will bring the souls of the dead in Christ with Him when he comes for the rapture/resurrection to reunite their souls with their redeemed bodies. And the living in Christ will be changed into their eternal everlasting bodies at that same event.

With this false and Biblically wrong belief which you are fixated with, we have no chance of agreement.
As Isaiah 29:9-12 says, those who choose to believe false teachings; will be locked into them, as you demonstrate.

No going to Jerusalem in that verse,

But Jesus is going to Jerusalem when He Returns. Another example of the hopeless confusion of the 'rapture to heaven', suckers.

 

[Oseas]

"Revelation 16:13-15

13And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the MOUTH of the dragon,and out of the MOUTH of the Beast(of sea), and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet. (SATANIC TRINITY)
14For they are the spirits of devils,working miracles,which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world,to gather them to the battle of that great Day(Lord's Day,the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium) of God Almighty.
15Behold,I come as a thief. (Get ready)
Blessed is he that watcheth,and keepeth his garments,lest he walk naked,and they see his shame.

Revelation 12:9-16
9And the great dragon(Revelation 13:11)was cast out,that old serpent,called the Devil,and Satan,which deceiveth the whole world: he was(will be)cast out into the earth, and his messengers-2Corinthians 11:13-15-were(will be)cast out with him.

10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, NOW is come salvation,and strength,and the kingdom of our GOD,and the power of His Christ:for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,which accused them before our GOD day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,and by the Word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

12 Therefore rejoice,ye heavens(Philippians 3:20-21 combined with Ephesians 1:3-8),and ye that dwell in them.Woe to the inhabiters of the earth(Israel) and of the sea(Gentile nations)! for the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given TWO WINGS of a great eagle,that she might FLY into the wilderness(Isaiah 60:8), into her place, where she is nourished(by the Word of GOD) for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman(will it be by the synagogue of Satan, and Television, and Internet, etc.?), that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman,and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

Get ready"

 

[Douggg]

Get ready"

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I was referring to 1 Thess 4:14, where it says Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This means only the GT martyrs, as per Rev 20:4

1 Thess 417 is not a 'rapture/resurrection', as you like to imagine. It will be a transportation to where Jesus will be, initially in the atmospheric clouds, then Jerusalem.

our redemption draws nigh. So when these things happen, which will be the wrath of God on the godless peoples, THEN; we will know the glorious Return is not too far away.
If you think -look up...... means people will be taken up, then you have again added to scripture with the totally impossible idea of being raptured to heaven.
Spare us your fanciful charts, they just show your errors and confusion.

Keras, 1 Th 4:14 is about the dead in Christ being taken from Paradise, where the dead in Christ go upon death (Luke 16:22-23). They are alive and well in Paradise.

They are given their glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52), as are we, upon the last trump in 1 Th 4:16. The dead in Christ are changed, then we are changed into our glorified bodies. We then go to Heaven, per John 14:3.

John 14:3 (NIV); And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Jesus has prepared a home for each of us in Heaven. This is not the NHNE. He will come back (1 Th 4:16-17) and “TAKE YOU” (the rapture to Heaven in John 14:3) —- that raptures us to, as Jesus said —- to “where I am.”

“Where I am” is where? Where is Jesus now, Keras?

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I was referring to 1 Thess 4:14, where it says Jesus will bring the dead in Christ with Him. This means only the GT martyrs, as per Rev 20:4

1 Thess 417 is not a 'rapture/resurrection', as you like to imagine. It will be a transportation to where Jesus will be, initially in the atmospheric clouds, then Jerusalem.

our redemption draws nigh. So when these things happen, which will be the wrath of God on the godless peoples, THEN; we will know the glorious Return is not too far away.
If you think -look up...... means people will be taken up, then you have again added to scripture with the totally impossible idea of being raptured to heaven.
Spare us your fanciful charts, they just show your errors and confusion.

Keras, the “GT martyrs” in Rev 20:4 are the GM. They are resurrected in the last sentence of verse 4. They are then seen in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

 

[keras]

1 Th 4:14 is about the dead in Christ being taken from Paradise, where the dead in Christ go upon death (Luke 16:22-23). They are alive and well in Paradise.

This is simply untrue.
Dead people are not Judged at death, so how can they go anywhere until Judgment, which does not happen until after the Millennium.

People who believe the dead are alive and well after their death are very deceived, by the Deceiver, the father of lies.
You show your confusion by quoting 1 Thess 4:14 which says the dead 'sleep' in death, they you have the effrontery to say they are alive and well.

By now; anyone reading this thread, if not already bored by your repeated opinions, will know that the rapture theory is very questionable and most unlikely to happen.
There is a complete failure of posting a verse that actually says there will be a rapture to heaven, Because there isn't one.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

This is simply untrue.
Dead people are not Judged at death, so how can they go anywhere until Judgment, which does not happen until after the Millennium.

People who believe the dead are alive and well after their death are very deceived, by the Deceiver, the father of lies.
You show your confusion by quoting 1 Thess 4:14 which says the dead 'sleep' in death, they you have the effrontery to say they are alive and well.

By now; anyone reading this thread, if not already bored by your repeated opinions, will know that the rapture theory is very questionable and most unlikely to happen.
There is a complete failure of posting a verse that actually says there will be a rapture to heaven, Because there isn't one.

This is simply untrue.
Dead people are not Judged at death, so how can they go anywhere until Judgment, which does not happen until after the Millennium.

People who believe the dead are alive and well after their death are very deceived, by the Deceiver, the father of lies.
You show your confusion by quoting 1 Thess 4:14 which says the dead 'sleep' in death, they you have the effrontery to say they are alive and well.

By now; anyone reading this thread, if not already bored by your repeated opinions, will know that the rapture theory is very questionable and most unlikely to happen.
There is a complete failure of posting a verse that actually says there will be a rapture to heaven, Because there isn't one.

This is simply untrue.
Dead people are not Judged at death, so how can they go anywhere until Judgment, which does not happen until after the Millennium.

People who believe the dead are alive and well after their death are very deceived, by the Deceiver, the father of lies.
You show your confusion by quoting 1 Thess 4:14 which says the dead 'sleep' in death, they you have the effrontery to say they are alive and well.

By now; anyone reading this thread, if not already bored by your repeated opinions, will know that the rapture theory is very questionable and most unlikely to happen.
There is a complete failure of posting a verse that actually says there will be a rapture to heaven, Because there isn't one.

Did I say they are judged?

Luke 23:43 (NIV):
Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Luke 16:22-23 (NIV): … The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.

Lazarus died yet he’s beside Abraham in Luke 16:23. He will be pre-Trib raptured as one of the “dead in Christ.”

1 Th 4:14 (NLT): For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.

Paradise is to Heaven what Hades is to Hell. Each is a temporary holding location for their assigned guests.

Romans 8:1 (NIV): Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,

We are forgiven and saved by the grace of God. We are only judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ.

2 Cor 5:10 (NIV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.