A Rapture Study on Pre Wrath

[Kokavkrystallos]

I wrote this 21 years ago, and my belief now, is based on the final verse of scripture at the end of this. There are several passages that appear to indicate Jesus could come imminently at any time: what I find scripture doesn't say is that He will come BEFORE the actual tribulation starts, or if we would even know for sure we had entered into it. I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, but rather that it is written as Daniel, which expands upon previous visions in later chapters, giving us more detail about the same thing.
"Revelation isn’t meant to be read merely as a chronology of fantastic events. It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity. Revelation is apocalyptic—a genre defined by images, symbols, and references to the Old Testament and John’s ancient world." An Easier Way to Read Revelation

The Rapture

When Jesus Takes Us Out---- Sept 6, 2003 The scriptures tell of a time in the future when Jesus Christ will return for his people, and remove them from Earth. The most quoted verses in this teaching are in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ This is what most Christians refer to as "The Rapture", or, the gathering or taking of the believers out of this world. Another portion of scripture commonly quoted is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Many churches teach that this event will occur prior to the "Great Tribulation", which is going to be a 7-year period of great oppression on Earth under a dictator known as the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel speaks of Antichrist in detail. Jesus discusses The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Revelation gives details of events during The Tribulation. Several other Old Testament prophets make mention of events that will happen during this time. What I hope to reveal in this message is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus will take the church (the believers) before The Tribulation, but rather, that He takes them at some point during The Tribulation- most likely nearer to the end of the 7 year period. We will learn from Gods own Word why this is so. We will let the Holy Scriptures show us The Truth. Matthew 24 is a record of Jesus message about His second coming. After Talking about events that will transpire on Earth, including The Tribulation period (verse 21), Jesus says this: "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and The Moon shall not give her light, and The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And THEN (Notice: then, after, - not before...) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the Tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other."-(Matthew 24:29-31). In Matthew 24 also, verses 48-51 are significant. There are many Christians teaching "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"- assuring their congregations that they don't have to worry about Antichrist or oppression under his dictatorship because Jesus will supposedly take them away before any of that ever happens. Is this error giving people a false sense of security? Imagine what will happen when suddenly an evil totalitarian regime comes into power and persecutes the church - and many of these churches have been led to believe they wouldn't be here to witness any of this! "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, my Lord delayed his coming, and shall begin to smite his coming, and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This might be EXACTLY what some Christians would say once they realize Jesus did not come before the tribulation as they had been led to believe: "The Lord is delaying his coming!" And if some of them suddenly find themselves in the Tribulation, oppressed by Antichrists regime, they may very well begin to persecute their "fellow servants", those believers who had not held to their teachings, but had been prepared to endure Tribulation. Verse 50 states plainly the Lord of that servant shall come in a day he is NOT expected. So it is with the error of teaching a pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a doctrine of escapism not found anywhere in the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2 is also important to look at. It makes it clear "That Day" shall NOT COME until AFTER the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed (verse 3) What "Day" is it talking about? Verse 1: "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him." It was commonly being taught by some false teachers at that time that Jesus had already come for his people. Paul was assuring them this had not yet happened, and would not happen until after Antichrist was revealed. It would be wise to pinpoint where exactly this "Rapture" or gathering of the church to Jesus is in Revelation. We find it in Revelation 14. Yet so many churches have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1, when John sees a door open in heaven and he is told to "come up hither." This is most certainly NOT the Rapture of the church. The door in heaven in Revelation 4:1 is simply a portal through which John himself is taken in order to receive the visions of the Revelation! I have seen this verse (Revelation 4:1) taught in Bible College and in numerous denominations to be the time of the rapture in Revelation. I wonder if many of those who teach such error have ever had such an experience in The Spirit? How many visions of heavenly things have they had? Have they ever truly heard audible sounds from heaven, or been taken up in their spirit through a portal into another realm? Or are they book educated only? It is amazing that so many teachers are teaching such error, as the one claiming Revelation 4:1 is talking about Jesus taking his church in The Rapture! These Teachers claim because Revelation 4:1 mentions a voice as it were of a trumpet, that this is the same as the "Trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is interesting the Revelation Trumpet is actually a VOICE, whereas in 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Voice" is of the Archangel, and the trumpet of God is separate from this. Obviously Revelation 4:1 is a personal call to John to come up into the Spirit realm, and NOT anything to do with the church being caught up to meet Jesus in the air! The sound of the trumpet John heard is also the same as he heard in Revelation 1:10. Trumpets are also sounded by Angels in revelation 8:13 and 9:14. Trying to tie in the trumpet in Revelation 4:1 to the trump of God at the Rapture is pure conjecture. Revelation 14:14-16 describes the "Rapture" in its proper place - for here Jesus comes upon a cloud, exactly the same way scripture says he could. (See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7): "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped." There are some interesting things to observe here. First is that the Angel proclaims with the cry of a loud voice, which is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where the Lord descends with a shout and the voice of the Archangel. Also, there are 4 angels mentioned in Revelation 14, (verses 6, 8, 9, and 15) which would correspond with the gathering by the angels from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31. Zechariah makes mention of "Four Spirits of the Heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth" in Zechariah 6:1-8. It is after this event, the reaping of the harvest of the earth, that the wicked are judged. This is described in Revelation 14:17-20 where another angel, which had power over fire calls for the "vine of the earth" to be cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then, after this, in Revelation 15, do we find the 7 Angels having the 7 last plagues, "For in them is filled up the wrath of God". These 7 angels carry 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God. THIS is God's wrath. Prior to that the earth is reeling under the wrath of the Antichrist, who is possessed by the Devil..."For the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Revelation 12:12) - But this is NOT the wrath of God himself. One of the Pre-Tribulation teachers favorite verses used to promote the erroneous pre-Tribulation rapture is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." They claim this means Jesus will rescue us from the entire Tribulation, somehow concluding that the Tribulation itself is the wrath of God. Where they come up with such teachings, only God knows, but it surely is not what Jesus taught. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing found! We WILL certainly escape God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, and in his judgment, if we truly know God, but that occurs after the Antichrist has taken control of Earth. In the Parable of The Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13:24-30 and 36- 43) Jesus compares the wheat to the children of the kingdom, and the Tares to the children of the wicked one. (Verse 38) Jesus says "Let both grow together until the harvest" (verse 30) and in Revelation 14 he describes this harvest. It takes place at "the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels" (verse 39). We must also remember Revelation chapters 4-14 describe events in general, whereas chapters 15-18 describe some of the same events in detail. For instance, the fall of Babylon (The destruction of the U.S. by the European Kingdom) is referred to briefly in Revelation 14:8, but described in detail in chapters 17-18. Then chapter 19, to the end of Revelation, describe the coming of Jesus with His saints (redeemed souls) in power to destroy Antichrist's Kingdom and to take authority as king of the Earth for all eternity. Luke 21:28 describes how we should start looking up, "when these things begin to come to pass"- telling us that the events of the Tribulation have already begun at the time we are to start looking up for Jesus coming to rescue us. Not before, but after some of the events of the Tribulation start to take place. Luke 21:36 is yet one more verse used by Pre- Tribulation teachers to promote their doctrine; "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man." On the surface this might appear to support a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but what does it really mean? If it really meant "escape" in the sense of being taken out of the Earth, then Luke would be contradicting what he had just written in the previous several verses, as well as what Matthew and Mark wrote. Instead, the "escape" Luke refers to means escaping the wrath or judgment of God, escaping the consequences of unbelief, not allowing ones self to succumb to the power of Antichrist - but this does not mean escaping the entire 7 year Tribulation. Daniel states the Antichrist will "wear out the saints of the Most High." (Daniel 7:25) Revelation 14:13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth---" clearly there are believers on earth during the Tribulation. Of course the Pre - Tribulation teaching will tell us that the apostate church and unbelievers will somehow get saved after The Rapture, and somehow endure extreme persecution during the Tribulation- even though these people never truly knew God, have no experience at all with testing and trials of faith, and have no Spirit filled experienced teachers to guide them! Hmm, now that sounds a little far out there, especially when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a "Secret" Pre-Tribulation Rapture of all Spirit filled Christians, followed by the miraculous salvation of numerous unbelievers that somehow are able to endure the worst oppression ever upon the face of this Earth! To further confuse matters, the Teachers of error refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which says, "And now ye know what with oldeth that he might be reveled in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth, (meaning "Restrains" or "holds back") will let (restrain) until he be taken out of the way." They claim this refers to either the church herself, or the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church. Here I'm going to make a serious indictment. The last days church is too weak and morally bankrupt to withhold anything! Jesus referred to this conduction when he addressed the Laodician church in Revelation 3:14-22. Not all churches fall under this indictment, but a large number do, unfortunately. Furthermore, the presence of the church in history, or the practice of Judaism in the Temple before Christ never withheld dictators and oppressors from dominating society. The church did not prevent Nero Caesar, nor did it stop Adolph Hitler from taking power. Nor did it withhold Joseph Stalin and his totalitarian Communism. It is spiritual blindness to even suggest the church is what is withholding Antichrist! Even the American President in 1991, supposedly a Christian man, was preaching a "New World Order"- the very type of thing that Antichrist will proclaim with his One World government under the guise of United Nations, or some other union of the World. The point is, 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 cannot mean the church or Holy Spirit. I believe it refers to the restraining hand of God himself, perhaps sentinel angels that withhold until the precise time. To speculate, it could even refer to certain powerful nations that would have to be removed before a one-world government was possible. Soviet Russia was one example, the United States is another. But this is just speculation. I believe it refers to God's restraining influence---since these nations were not in existence at the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians. In the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) There is a cry at "midnight" that the bridegroom (symbolic of Jesus) is coming. This Word "midnight" actually comes from 2 Greek words that mean, "The middle of the night or evening."- Sometime during the night, and not specifically midnight as in 12 oclock. "Night" can refer to the Tribulation period:" In that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, the other left." (Luke 17:24) "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2). The Tribulation period will be a time of great darkness and oppression on earth. It is something all Spirit led people should be prepared for. We should live as if Jesus would come this very day, but at the same time strengthen ourselves in The Holy Spirit and purity our hearts by faith. The church has become desensitized and cold to things of God. It's time to get serious, because only those who overcome will be the ones to meet the Lord. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony---" (Revelation 13:11) "Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping"- (Mark 13:35-36).

 

[AlexB23]

I wrote this 21 years ago, and my belief now, is based on the final verse of scripture at the end of this. There are several passages that appear to indicate Jesus could come imminently at any time: what I find scripture doesn't say is that He will come BEFORE the actual tribulation starts, or if we would even know for sure we had entered into it. I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, but rather that it is written as Daniel, which expands upon previous visions in later chapters, giving us more detail about the same thing.
"Revelation isn’t meant to be read merely as a chronology of fantastic events. It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity. Revelation is apocalyptic—a genre defined by images, symbols, and references to the Old Testament and John’s ancient world." An Easier Way to Read Revelation

The Rapture

When Jesus Takes Us Out---- Sept 6, 2003 The scriptures tell of a time in the future when Jesus Christ will return for his people, and remove them from Earth. The most quoted verses in this teaching are in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ This is what most Christians refer to as "The Rapture", or, the gathering or taking of the believers out of this world. Another portion of scripture commonly quoted is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Many churches teach that this event will occur prior to the "Great Tribulation", which is going to be a 7-year period of great oppression on Earth under a dictator known as the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel speaks of Antichrist in detail. Jesus discusses The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Revelation gives details of events during The Tribulation. Several other Old Testament prophets make mention of events that will happen during this time. What I hope to reveal in this message is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus will take the church (the believers) before The Tribulation, but rather, that He takes them at some point during The Tribulation- most likely nearer to the end of the 7 year period. We will learn from Gods own Word why this is so. We will let the Holy Scriptures show us The Truth. Matthew 24 is a record of Jesus message about His second coming. After Talking about events that will transpire on Earth, including The Tribulation period (verse 21), Jesus says this: "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and The Moon shall not give her light, and The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And THEN (Notice: then, after, - not before...) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the Tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other."-(Matthew 24:29-31). In Matthew 24 also, verses 48-51 are significant. There are many Christians teaching "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"- assuring their congregations that they don't have to worry about Antichrist or oppression under his dictatorship because Jesus will supposedly take them away before any of that ever happens. Is this error giving people a false sense of security? Imagine what will happen when suddenly an evil totalitarian regime comes into power and persecutes the church - and many of these churches have been led to believe they wouldn't be here to witness any of this! "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, my Lord delayed his coming, and shall begin to smite his coming, and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This might be EXACTLY what some Christians would say once they realize Jesus did not come before the tribulation as they had been led to believe: "The Lord is delaying his coming!" And if some of them suddenly find themselves in the Tribulation, oppressed by Antichrists regime, they may very well begin to persecute their "fellow servants", those believers who had not held to their teachings, but had been prepared to endure Tribulation. Verse 50 states plainly the Lord of that servant shall come in a day he is NOT expected. So it is with the error of teaching a pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a doctrine of escapism not found anywhere in the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2 is also important to look at. It makes it clear "That Day" shall NOT COME until AFTER the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed (verse 3) What "Day" is it talking about? Verse 1: "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him." It was commonly being taught by some false teachers at that time that Jesus had already come for his people. Paul was assuring them this had not yet happened, and would not happen until after Antichrist was revealed. It would be wise to pinpoint where exactly this "Rapture" or gathering of the church to Jesus is in Revelation. We find it in Revelation 14. Yet so many churches have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1, when John sees a door open in heaven and he is told to "come up hither." This is most certainly NOT the Rapture of the church. The door in heaven in Revelation 4:1 is simply a portal through which John himself is taken in order to receive the visions of the Revelation! I have seen this verse (Revelation 4:1) taught in Bible College and in numerous denominations to be the time of the rapture in Revelation. I wonder if many of those who teach such error have ever had such an experience in The Spirit? How many visions of heavenly things have they had? Have they ever truly heard audible sounds from heaven, or been taken up in their spirit through a portal into another realm? Or are they book educated only? It is amazing that so many teachers are teaching such error, as the one claiming Revelation 4:1 is talking about Jesus taking his church in The Rapture! These Teachers claim because Revelation 4:1 mentions a voice as it were of a trumpet, that this is the same as the "Trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is interesting the Revelation Trumpet is actually a VOICE, whereas in 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Voice" is of the Archangel, and the trumpet of God is separate from this. Obviously Revelation 4:1 is a personal call to John to come up into the Spirit realm, and NOT anything to do with the church being caught up to meet Jesus in the air! The sound of the trumpet John heard is also the same as he heard in Revelation 1:10. Trumpets are also sounded by Angels in revelation 8:13 and 9:14. Trying to tie in the trumpet in Revelation 4:1 to the trump of God at the Rapture is pure conjecture. Revelation 14:14-16 describes the "Rapture" in its proper place - for here Jesus comes upon a cloud, exactly the same way scripture says he could. (See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7): "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped." There are some interesting things to observe here. First is that the Angel proclaims with the cry of a loud voice, which is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where the Lord descends with a shout and the voice of the Archangel. Also, there are 4 angels mentioned in Revelation 14, (verses 6, 8, 9, and 15) which would correspond with the gathering by the angels from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31. Zechariah makes mention of "Four Spirits of the Heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth" in Zechariah 6:1-8. It is after this event, the reaping of the harvest of the earth, that the wicked are judged. This is described in Revelation 14:17-20 where another angel, which had power over fire calls for the "vine of the earth" to be cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then, after this, in Revelation 15, do we find the 7 Angels having the 7 last plagues, "For in them is filled up the wrath of God". These 7 angels carry 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God. THIS is God's wrath. Prior to that the earth is reeling under the wrath of the Antichrist, who is possessed by the Devil..."For the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Revelation 12:12) - But this is NOT the wrath of God himself. One of the Pre-Tribulation teachers favorite verses used to promote the erroneous pre-Tribulation rapture is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." They claim this means Jesus will rescue us from the entire Tribulation, somehow concluding that the Tribulation itself is the wrath of God. Where they come up with such teachings, only God knows, but it surely is not what Jesus taught. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing found! We WILL certainly escape God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, and in his judgment, if we truly know God, but that occurs after the Antichrist has taken control of Earth. In the Parable of The Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13:24-30 and 36- 43) Jesus compares the wheat to the children of the kingdom, and the Tares to the children of the wicked one. (Verse 38) Jesus says "Let both grow together until the harvest" (verse 30) and in Revelation 14 he describes this harvest. It takes place at "the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels" (verse 39). We must also remember Revelation chapters 4-14 describe events in general, whereas chapters 15-18 describe some of the same events in detail. For instance, the fall of Babylon (The destruction of the U.S. by the European Kingdom) is referred to briefly in Revelation 14:8, but described in detail in chapters 17-18. Then chapter 19, to the end of Revelation, describe the coming of Jesus with His saints (redeemed souls) in power to destroy Antichrist's Kingdom and to take authority as king of the Earth for all eternity. Luke 21:28 describes how we should start looking up, "when these things begin to come to pass"- telling us that the events of the Tribulation have already begun at the time we are to start looking up for Jesus coming to rescue us. Not before, but after some of the events of the Tribulation start to take place. Luke 21:36 is yet one more verse used by Pre- Tribulation teachers to promote their doctrine; "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man." On the surface this might appear to support a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but what does it really mean? If it really meant "escape" in the sense of being taken out of the Earth, then Luke would be contradicting what he had just written in the previous several verses, as well as what Matthew and Mark wrote. Instead, the "escape" Luke refers to means escaping the wrath or judgment of God, escaping the consequences of unbelief, not allowing ones self to succumb to the power of Antichrist - but this does not mean escaping the entire 7 year Tribulation. Daniel states the Antichrist will "wear out the saints of the Most High." (Daniel 7:25) Revelation 14:13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth---" clearly there are believers on earth during the Tribulation. Of course the Pre - Tribulation teaching will tell us that the apostate church and unbelievers will somehow get saved after The Rapture, and somehow endure extreme persecution during the Tribulation- even though these people never truly knew God, have no experience at all with testing and trials of faith, and have no Spirit filled experienced teachers to guide them! Hmm, now that sounds a little far out there, especially when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a "Secret" Pre-Tribulation Rapture of all Spirit filled Christians, followed by the miraculous salvation of numerous unbelievers that somehow are able to endure the worst oppression ever upon the face of this Earth! To further confuse matters, the Teachers of error refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which says, "And now ye know what with oldeth that he might be reveled in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth, (meaning "Restrains" or "holds back") will let (restrain) until he be taken out of the way." They claim this refers to either the church herself, or the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church. Here I'm going to make a serious indictment. The last days church is too weak and morally bankrupt to withhold anything! Jesus referred to this conduction when he addressed the Laodician church in Revelation 3:14-22. Not all churches fall under this indictment, but a large number do, unfortunately. Furthermore, the presence of the church in history, or the practice of Judaism in the Temple before Christ never withheld dictators and oppressors from dominating society. The church did not prevent Nero Caesar, nor did it stop Adolph Hitler from taking power. Nor did it withhold Joseph Stalin and his totalitarian Communism. It is spiritual blindness to even suggest the church is what is withholding Antichrist! Even the American President in 1991, supposedly a Christian man, was preaching a "New World Order"- the very type of thing that Antichrist will proclaim with his One World government under the guise of United Nations, or some other union of the World. The point is, 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 cannot mean the church or Holy Spirit. I believe it refers to the restraining hand of God himself, perhaps sentinel angels that withhold until the precise time. To speculate, it could even refer to certain powerful nations that would have to be removed before a one-world government was possible. Soviet Russia was one example, the United States is another. But this is just speculation. I believe it refers to God's restraining influence---since these nations were not in existence at the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians. In the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) There is a cry at "midnight" that the bridegroom (symbolic of Jesus) is coming. This Word "midnight" actually comes from 2 Greek words that mean, "The middle of the night or evening."- Sometime during the night, and not specifically midnight as in 12 oclock. "Night" can refer to the Tribulation period:" In that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, the other left." (Luke 17:24) "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2). The Tribulation period will be a time of great darkness and oppression on earth. It is something all Spirit led people should be prepared for. We should live as if Jesus would come this very day, but at the same time strengthen ourselves in The Holy Spirit and purity our hearts by faith. The church has become desensitized and cold to things of God. It's time to get serious, because only those who overcome will be the ones to meet the Lord. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony---" (Revelation 13:11) "Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping"- (Mark 13:35-36).

You might want this post moved to the Eschatology side of the CF forums. I tried understanding this, and got lost. Eschatology is my weak point, cos I try to focus on the here and now.

 

[BobRyan]

I wrote this 21 years ago, and my belief now, is based on the final verse of scripture at the end of this. There are several passages that appear to indicate Jesus could come imminently at any time: what I find scripture doesn't say is that He will come BEFORE the actual tribulation starts, or if we would even know for sure we had entered into it. I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, but rather that it is written as Daniel, which expands upon previous visions in later chapters, giving us more detail about the same thing.
"Revelation isn’t meant to be read merely as a chronology of fantastic events. It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity. Revelation is apocalyptic—a genre defined by images, symbols, and references to the Old Testament and John’s ancient world." An Easier Way to Read Revelation

ok - agreed on the following
Jesus comes after the tribulation Matt 24:29-31 "immediately after the tribulation... He will send His angels to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other"

But in that case - "tribulation" includes a lot of persecution of the saints as well as the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 where just as in Egypt - Israel is spared/exempt from the 7 last plague while still in Egypt.

The Rapture

When Jesus Takes Us Out---- Sept 6, 2003 The scriptures tell of a time in the future when Jesus Christ will return for his people, and remove them from Earth. The most quoted verses in this teaching are in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ This is what most Christians refer to as "The Rapture", or, the gathering or taking of the believers out of this world. Another portion of scripture commonly quoted is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Agreed that is the rapture - and it is also called the coming of Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Many churches teach that this event will occur prior to the "Great Tribulation", which is going to be a 7-year period of great oppression on Earth under a dictator known as the Antichrist.

True - but I don't see where the Bible says it is a "seven year tribulation"

The prophet Daniel speaks of Antichrist in detail. Jesus discusses The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Revelation gives details of events during The Tribulation. Several other Old Testament prophets make mention of events that will happen during this time.

true.

Jesus says this: "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and The Moon shall not give her light, and The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And THEN (Notice: then, after, - not before...) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the Tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other."-(Matthew 24:29-31).

yep - "from one end of the sky to the other" NASB -- that is the rapture event at the coming of Jesus and it happens after the tribulation

 

[BobRyan]

2 Thessalonians 2 is also important to look at. It makes it clear "That Day" shall NOT COME until AFTER the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed (verse 3) What "Day" is it talking about? Verse 1: "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him." It was commonly being taught by some false teachers at that time that Jesus had already come for his people. Paul was assuring them this had not yet happened, and would not happen until after Antichrist was revealed.

yes - that is clear

 

[BobRyan]

Kokavkrystallos said:

It would be wise to pinpoint where exactly this "Rapture" or gathering of the church to Jesus is in Revelation. We find it in Revelation 14. Yet so many churches have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1, when John sees a door open in heaven and he is told to "come up hither." This is most certainly NOT the Rapture of the church. The door in heaven in Revelation 4:1 is simply a portal through which John himself is taken in order to receive the visions of the Revelation!

true

Obviously Revelation 4:1 is a personal call to John to come up into the Spirit realm, and NOT anything to do with the church being caught up to meet Jesus in the air!

true.

Revelation 14:14-16 describes the "Rapture" in its proper place - for here Jesus comes upon a cloud, exactly the same way scripture says he could. (See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7): "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped."

yep

There are some interesting things to observe here. First is that the Angel proclaims with the cry of a loud voice, which is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where the Lord descends with a shout and the voice of the Archangel. Also, there are 4 angels mentioned in Revelation 14, (verses 6, 8, 9, and 15) which would correspond with the gathering by the angels from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31.

true

It is after this event, the reaping of the harvest of the earth, that the wicked are judged. This is described in Revelation 14:17-20 where another angel, which had power over fire calls for the "vine of the earth" to be cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Interesting that 2Thess 2:1-5 speaks of the rapture event
And 2 Thess 1:5-8 shows the destruction of those "who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel" - ie the lost.

Then, after this, in Revelation 15, do we find the 7 Angels having the 7 last plagues, "For in them is filled up the wrath of God". These 7 angels carry 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God. THIS is God's wrath

true.

One of the Pre-Tribulation teachers favorite verses used to promote the erroneous pre-Tribulation rapture is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." They claim this means Jesus will rescue us from the entire Tribulation, somehow concluding that the Tribulation itself is the wrath of God. Where they come up with such teachings, only God knows, but it surely is not what Jesus taught.

In fact in John 17 Jesus emphatically refutes it saying that God is to keep us from the evil one but not that He is to take us out of the world

Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing found! We WILL certainly escape God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, and in his judgment, if we truly know God, but that occurs after the Antichrist has taken control of Earth.

Just as Israel was exempt from 7 last plagues (out of the ten) -- while still in Egypt.

Daniel states the Antichrist will "wear out the saints of the Most High." (Daniel 7:25) Revelation 14:13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth---" clearly there are believers on earth during the Tribulation.

Dan 7 is key to the whole thing because it shows the saints are under full on persecution by the little horn all through the judgment event in vs 9-10 and that only one the judgment is complete - "passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22 does Christ appear and then the saints are freed from persecution.

To further confuse matters, the Teachers of error refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which says, "And now ye know what with oldeth that he might be reveled in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth, (meaning "Restrains" or "holds back") will let (restrain) until he be taken out of the way." They claim this refers to either the church herself, or the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church.

It is the Holy Spirit - but notice that John 16 does not say "The Spirit convicts just-the-saints of sin and righteousness and judgment" it say HE "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment".

Gen 6 says "my Spirit will not always strive with mankind - so man's days on Earth will be 120 years" - AT the end of that time - came the end of the world that then was "being destroyed by a flood" 2 Peter 3.

The point is, 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 cannot mean the church or Holy Spirit.

Well it does not mean the church - but it can mean the Holy Spirit.

I believe it refers to the restraining hand of God himself

Exactly -

I believe it refers to God's restraining influence

true.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

True - but I don't see where the Bible says it is a "seven year tribulation"

I posted it as I wrote it in 2003, only correcting a couple typos.
I actually agree with what you say now. I know Daniel's 70th week is often used, and the days are counted, but there's also the day for year application, and there's also a way of looking at Daniel's 70th week as being fulfilled between the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the stoning of Stephen when the gospel then goes out to the Gentiles. Right in the middle of that "Messiah is cut off"

Someone on Quora puts it like this: (He puts the end at the conversion of Cornelius household, which isn't too far after Stephen was stoned, though a little time does elapse between the two, we don't know how much; possibly a few weeks)

"Daniel 9:21–27 is the “70 weeks” prophecy. Verse 24:”to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies,” That’s a big order for one prophecy! It starts with the order to restore an rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus of Persia, 537 B.C.E.) and ends with the Messiah arriving. Nothing happened in 70 weeks. The Jewish Bible says 70 weeks of YEARS! The 69th week of years (483 years) ends at the “fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar”-Luke 3: the messiah arrives! Here, the 69th week is finished and the last week, the 70th begins, verse 26,27. What happens in that 70th week? 1:the Messiah is cut off (Jesus death). 2: “at the half of the week the Messiah will cause sacrifice and gift offering to CEASE ( Jesus’ sacrificial death, the ransom, made animal sin offerings at the temple useless).”the midst of the week” is the 3 1/2 years of Jesus’ ministry. 3: The “Messiah will keep the covenant with the many for one week”: the new covenant, for the Jews, was open until the end of the 70th week, THEN! At the END of the 70th week the door opened to non-Jews! The Italian army officer Cornelius and his household became Christians!"

What is the Daniel's prophecy about "weeks" and how was it fulfilled?

Answer (1 of 13): Daniel 9:21–27 is the “70 weeks” prophecy. Verse 24:”to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies,” That’s a big order for one proph...

www.quora.com

 

[BobRyan]

I posted it as I wrote it in 2003, only correcting a couple typos.
I actually agree with what you say now. I know Daniel's 70th week is often used, and the days are counted, but there's also the day for year application, and there's also a way of looking at Daniel's 70th week as being fulfilled between the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the stoning of Stephen when the gospel then goes out to the Gentiles. Right in the middle of that "Messiah is cut off"

Amen to that!

Someone on Quora puts it like this: (He puts the end at the conversion of Cornelius household, which isn't too far after Stephen was stoned, though a little time does elapse between the two, we don't know how much; possibly a few weeks)

"Daniel 9:21–27 is the “70 weeks” prophecy. Verse 24:”to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies,” That’s a big order for one prophecy! It starts with the order to restore an rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus of Persia, 537 B.C.E.) and ends with the Messiah arriving. Nothing happened in 70 weeks. The Jewish Bible says 70 weeks of YEARS! The 69th week of years (483 years) ends at the “fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar”-Luke 3: the messiah arrives! Here, the 69th week is finished and the last week, the 70th begins, verse 26,27. What happens in that 70th week? 1:the Messiah is cut off (Jesus death). 2: “at the half of the week the Messiah will cause sacrifice and gift offering to CEASE ( Jesus’ sacrificial death, the ransom, made animal sin offerings at the temple useless)

Now this is a very important point. All aspects in Dan 9 predicting what the Messiah would do - are given explicitly in the New Testament.

So then Heb 10:4-11 says that this in regard to Christ and "animal sacrifices and offerings" -- "HE takes AWAY the first to establish the second".

What I like about this is that -- He is the one to whom scripture attributes act of "taking away animal sacrifice and offerings" at the cross. IT is explicit in the text, not merely a preference or this or that "POV"

 

[BobRyan]

I have a question -

In Acts 15 and 21 you see the issue of circumcision come up and it is pretty clear from Gal 2 that Paul was happy about the fact that Titus was not circumcised. In Acts 16 the first thing Paul does is have Timothy circumcised because Timothy's mother was a Jew.

But the agreed on position in Acts 21 is that gentile Christians were not being told that they needed to be circumcised now that they are Christian.
We also know from 1 Cor 11 and other parts of the Bible that the Lord's Supper was practiced in the church - it was open to both Jewish Christian and to gentile Christians and it was inaugurated at the time of Passover the night Christ was taken into custody.

In the Bible gentiles cannot participate in Passover unless they are circumcised. With the focus in the NT on not telling gentiles they need to be circumcised it makes it appear that they were all participating in Communion - but not all Christians were participating in Passover. Is that your understanding as well?

 

[AlexB23]

Someone on Quora puts it like this: (He puts the end at the conversion of Cornelius household, which isn't too far after Stephen was stoned, though a little time does elapse between the two, we don't know how much; possibly a few weeks)

Be careful with Quora. There are a bunch of fake posts on that site. I'd trust an AI over an average Quora user, my brother.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Be careful with Quora. There are a bunch of fake posts on that site. I'd trust an AI over an average Quora user, my brother.

Oh I know, it just seemed that answer best fit what I was trying to say - rather than writing it all out. There are many Christian scholars who say same, but their material was much longer.

 

[AlexB23]

Oh I know, it just seemed that answer best fit what I was trying to say - rather than writing it all out. There are many Christian scholars who say same, but their material was much longer.

You can just summarize the main points by the Christian scholars, if I may say.

 

[RandyPNW]

I wrote this 21 years ago, and my belief now, is based on the final verse of scripture at the end of this. There are several passages that appear to indicate Jesus could come imminently at any time: what I find scripture doesn't say is that He will come BEFORE the actual tribulation starts, or if we would even know for sure we had entered into it. I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, but rather that it is written as Daniel, which expands upon previous visions in later chapters, giving us more detail about the same thing.
"Revelation isn’t meant to be read merely as a chronology of fantastic events. It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity. Revelation is apocalyptic—a genre defined by images, symbols, and references to the Old Testament and John’s ancient world." An Easier Way to Read Revelation

The Rapture

When Jesus Takes Us Out---- Sept 6, 2003 The scriptures tell of a time in the future when Jesus Christ will return for his people, and remove them from Earth. The most quoted verses in this teaching are in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ This is what most Christians refer to as "The Rapture", or, the gathering or taking of the believers out of this world. Another portion of scripture commonly quoted is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." Many churches teach that this event will occur prior to the "Great Tribulation", which is going to be a 7-year period of great oppression on Earth under a dictator known as the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel speaks of Antichrist in detail. Jesus discusses The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Revelation gives details of events during The Tribulation. Several other Old Testament prophets make mention of events that will happen during this time. What I hope to reveal in this message is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus will take the church (the believers) before The Tribulation, but rather, that He takes them at some point during The Tribulation- most likely nearer to the end of the 7 year period. We will learn from Gods own Word why this is so. We will let the Holy Scriptures show us The Truth. Matthew 24 is a record of Jesus message about His second coming. After Talking about events that will transpire on Earth, including The Tribulation period (verse 21), Jesus says this: "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and The Moon shall not give her light, and The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And THEN (Notice: then, after, - not before...) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the Tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other."-(Matthew 24:29-31). In Matthew 24 also, verses 48-51 are significant. There are many Christians teaching "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"- assuring their congregations that they don't have to worry about Antichrist or oppression under his dictatorship because Jesus will supposedly take them away before any of that ever happens. Is this error giving people a false sense of security? Imagine what will happen when suddenly an evil totalitarian regime comes into power and persecutes the church - and many of these churches have been led to believe they wouldn't be here to witness any of this! "But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, my Lord delayed his coming, and shall begin to smite his coming, and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." This might be EXACTLY what some Christians would say once they realize Jesus did not come before the tribulation as they had been led to believe: "The Lord is delaying his coming!" And if some of them suddenly find themselves in the Tribulation, oppressed by Antichrists regime, they may very well begin to persecute their "fellow servants", those believers who had not held to their teachings, but had been prepared to endure Tribulation. Verse 50 states plainly the Lord of that servant shall come in a day he is NOT expected. So it is with the error of teaching a pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a doctrine of escapism not found anywhere in the Bible. 2 Thessalonians 2 is also important to look at. It makes it clear "That Day" shall NOT COME until AFTER the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed (verse 3) What "Day" is it talking about? Verse 1: "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him." It was commonly being taught by some false teachers at that time that Jesus had already come for his people. Paul was assuring them this had not yet happened, and would not happen until after Antichrist was revealed. It would be wise to pinpoint where exactly this "Rapture" or gathering of the church to Jesus is in Revelation. We find it in Revelation 14. Yet so many churches have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1, when John sees a door open in heaven and he is told to "come up hither." This is most certainly NOT the Rapture of the church. The door in heaven in Revelation 4:1 is simply a portal through which John himself is taken in order to receive the visions of the Revelation! I have seen this verse (Revelation 4:1) taught in Bible College and in numerous denominations to be the time of the rapture in Revelation. I wonder if many of those who teach such error have ever had such an experience in The Spirit? How many visions of heavenly things have they had? Have they ever truly heard audible sounds from heaven, or been taken up in their spirit through a portal into another realm? Or are they book educated only? It is amazing that so many teachers are teaching such error, as the one claiming Revelation 4:1 is talking about Jesus taking his church in The Rapture! These Teachers claim because Revelation 4:1 mentions a voice as it were of a trumpet, that this is the same as the "Trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is interesting the Revelation Trumpet is actually a VOICE, whereas in 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Voice" is of the Archangel, and the trumpet of God is separate from this. Obviously Revelation 4:1 is a personal call to John to come up into the Spirit realm, and NOT anything to do with the church being caught up to meet Jesus in the air! The sound of the trumpet John heard is also the same as he heard in Revelation 1:10. Trumpets are also sounded by Angels in revelation 8:13 and 9:14. Trying to tie in the trumpet in Revelation 4:1 to the trump of God at the Rapture is pure conjecture. Revelation 14:14-16 describes the "Rapture" in its proper place - for here Jesus comes upon a cloud, exactly the same way scripture says he could. (See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7): "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped." There are some interesting things to observe here. First is that the Angel proclaims with the cry of a loud voice, which is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where the Lord descends with a shout and the voice of the Archangel. Also, there are 4 angels mentioned in Revelation 14, (verses 6, 8, 9, and 15) which would correspond with the gathering by the angels from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31. Zechariah makes mention of "Four Spirits of the Heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth" in Zechariah 6:1-8. It is after this event, the reaping of the harvest of the earth, that the wicked are judged. This is described in Revelation 14:17-20 where another angel, which had power over fire calls for the "vine of the earth" to be cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then, after this, in Revelation 15, do we find the 7 Angels having the 7 last plagues, "For in them is filled up the wrath of God". These 7 angels carry 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God. THIS is God's wrath. Prior to that the earth is reeling under the wrath of the Antichrist, who is possessed by the Devil..."For the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Revelation 12:12) - But this is NOT the wrath of God himself. One of the Pre-Tribulation teachers favorite verses used to promote the erroneous pre-Tribulation rapture is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." They claim this means Jesus will rescue us from the entire Tribulation, somehow concluding that the Tribulation itself is the wrath of God. Where they come up with such teachings, only God knows, but it surely is not what Jesus taught. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing found! We WILL certainly escape God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, and in his judgment, if we truly know God, but that occurs after the Antichrist has taken control of Earth. In the Parable of The Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13:24-30 and 36- 43) Jesus compares the wheat to the children of the kingdom, and the Tares to the children of the wicked one. (Verse 38) Jesus says "Let both grow together until the harvest" (verse 30) and in Revelation 14 he describes this harvest. It takes place at "the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels" (verse 39). We must also remember Revelation chapters 4-14 describe events in general, whereas chapters 15-18 describe some of the same events in detail. For instance, the fall of Babylon (The destruction of the U.S. by the European Kingdom) is referred to briefly in Revelation 14:8, but described in detail in chapters 17-18. Then chapter 19, to the end of Revelation, describe the coming of Jesus with His saints (redeemed souls) in power to destroy Antichrist's Kingdom and to take authority as king of the Earth for all eternity. Luke 21:28 describes how we should start looking up, "when these things begin to come to pass"- telling us that the events of the Tribulation have already begun at the time we are to start looking up for Jesus coming to rescue us. Not before, but after some of the events of the Tribulation start to take place. Luke 21:36 is yet one more verse used by Pre- Tribulation teachers to promote their doctrine; "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man." On the surface this might appear to support a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but what does it really mean? If it really meant "escape" in the sense of being taken out of the Earth, then Luke would be contradicting what he had just written in the previous several verses, as well as what Matthew and Mark wrote. Instead, the "escape" Luke refers to means escaping the wrath or judgment of God, escaping the consequences of unbelief, not allowing ones self to succumb to the power of Antichrist - but this does not mean escaping the entire 7 year Tribulation. Daniel states the Antichrist will "wear out the saints of the Most High." (Daniel 7:25) Revelation 14:13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth---" clearly there are believers on earth during the Tribulation. Of course the Pre - Tribulation teaching will tell us that the apostate church and unbelievers will somehow get saved after The Rapture, and somehow endure extreme persecution during the Tribulation- even though these people never truly knew God, have no experience at all with testing and trials of faith, and have no Spirit filled experienced teachers to guide them! Hmm, now that sounds a little far out there, especially when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a "Secret" Pre-Tribulation Rapture of all Spirit filled Christians, followed by the miraculous salvation of numerous unbelievers that somehow are able to endure the worst oppression ever upon the face of this Earth! To further confuse matters, the Teachers of error refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which says, "And now ye know what with oldeth that he might be reveled in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth, (meaning "Restrains" or "holds back") will let (restrain) until he be taken out of the way." They claim this refers to either the church herself, or the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church. Here I'm going to make a serious indictment. The last days church is too weak and morally bankrupt to withhold anything! Jesus referred to this conduction when he addressed the Laodician church in Revelation 3:14-22. Not all churches fall under this indictment, but a large number do, unfortunately. Furthermore, the presence of the church in history, or the practice of Judaism in the Temple before Christ never withheld dictators and oppressors from dominating society. The church did not prevent Nero Caesar, nor did it stop Adolph Hitler from taking power. Nor did it withhold Joseph Stalin and his totalitarian Communism. It is spiritual blindness to even suggest the church is what is withholding Antichrist! Even the American President in 1991, supposedly a Christian man, was preaching a "New World Order"- the very type of thing that Antichrist will proclaim with his One World government under the guise of United Nations, or some other union of the World. The point is, 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 cannot mean the church or Holy Spirit. I believe it refers to the restraining hand of God himself, perhaps sentinel angels that withhold until the precise time. To speculate, it could even refer to certain powerful nations that would have to be removed before a one-world government was possible. Soviet Russia was one example, the United States is another. But this is just speculation. I believe it refers to God's restraining influence---since these nations were not in existence at the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians. In the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) There is a cry at "midnight" that the bridegroom (symbolic of Jesus) is coming. This Word "midnight" actually comes from 2 Greek words that mean, "The middle of the night or evening."- Sometime during the night, and not specifically midnight as in 12 oclock. "Night" can refer to the Tribulation period:" In that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, the other left." (Luke 17:24) "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2). The Tribulation period will be a time of great darkness and oppression on earth. It is something all Spirit led people should be prepared for. We should live as if Jesus would come this very day, but at the same time strengthen ourselves in The Holy Spirit and purity our hearts by faith. The church has become desensitized and cold to things of God. It's time to get serious, because only those who overcome will be the ones to meet the Lord. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony---" (Revelation 13:11) "Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping"- (Mark 13:35-36).

I'm not Pre-Wrath, but you have many good points here. I can't address all of them, but must say I appreciate your willingness to stand up to Darby's version of biblical prophecy. I think the strength of Darby was his support of Israel, and not his Pretrib Doctrine. So the Pretrib part needs to be examined, particularly since it had no historical precedent.

 

[Clare73]

True - but I don't see where the Bible says it is a "seven year tribulation"

It doesn't.

 

[BobRyan]

I posted it as I wrote it in 2003, only correcting a couple typos.
I actually agree with what you say now. I know Daniel's 70th week is often used, and the days are counted, but there's also the day for year application, and there's also a way of looking at Daniel's 70th week as being fulfilled between the baptism of Christ in the Jordan, and the stoning of Stephen when the gospel then goes out to the Gentiles.

27 AD the70th week starts, Christ's ministry starts, and the 69th week of Dan 9 ends. So that is 483 day-for-years after 457 B.C. which is the start point identified in Dan 9.

So then Mark 1:14-15 "The time is fulfilled" is the message Christ gives at the start of His ministry.
What time? -- it is the 69 weeks of Dan 9 and His ministry then is in the 70th week.
In the middle of that 70th week "The Messiah is cut off".

Right in the middle of that "Messiah is cut off"

Heb 10:4-11 says that the Cross is what "takes away sacrifice and offering" when it says "He takes away the first to establish the second"

Heb 10:
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering,
But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book)
To do Your will, O God.’”

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Someone on Quora puts it like this: (He puts the end at the conversion of Cornelius household, which isn't too far after Stephen was stoned, though a little time does elapse between the two, we don't know how much; possibly a few weeks)

"Daniel 9:21–27 is the “70 weeks” prophecy. Verse 24:”to terminate the transgression, to finish off sin, to make atonement for error, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up the vision and the prophecy, and to anoint the Holy of Holies,” That’s a big order for one prophecy! It starts with the order to restore an rebuild Jerusalem (Cyrus of Persia, 537 B.C.E.)

Actually that is 457 B.C. not 537 -- see Ezra 7 and Ezra 6.

and ends with the Messiah arriving.

Which is 27 AD and the Mark 1:14-15 statement of Christ that starts the 70th week and ends the 69th.

Nothing happened in 70 weeks. The Jewish Bible says 70 weeks of YEARS! The 69th week of years (483 years)

true.

What happens in that 70th week? 1:the Messiah is cut off (Jesus death). 2: “at the half of the week the Messiah will cause sacrifice and gift offering to CEASE ( Jesus’ sacrificial death, the ransom, made animal sin offerings at the temple useless).

True - that happens at the cross as Heb 10 confirms.

”the midst of the week” is the 3 1/2 years of Jesus’ ministry. 3: The “Messiah will keep the covenant with the many for one week”: the new covenant, for the Jews, was open until the end of the 70th week, THEN! At the END of the 70th week the door opened to non-Jews!

True. The stoning of Stephen leads to Saul's conversion and then as Paul a more direct outreach to the gentiles comes in various forms - including Acts 10 and the conversion of Cornelius' household.

 

[Kokavkrystallos]

Actually that is 457 B.C. not 527 -- see Ezra 7 and Ezra 6.

The guy on Quara's typo! And he wrote 537 not 527. You made a typo also! LoL.

457 is correct, and it's not Cyrus, it's Artaxerxes.

538 & 537 BC is when Cyrus lets the Jews return and they start building, but there is no order at that time.
Thanks for catching that!

 

[BobRyan]

The guy on Quara's typo! And he wrote 537 not 527. You made a typo also! LoL.

457 is correct, and it's not Cyrus, it's Artaxerxes.

yeah you are right - I said he stated 527 - should have said he stated 537.
And of course 457 is the good start date. But Artaxerxes is included in it as we see in Ezra 6.

Ezra 6:
14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.

Ezra 7 is where the 457 date comes from -- and it is during the reign of Artaxerxes.

Ezra 7: 7 Some of the children of Israel, the priests, the Levites, the singers, the gatekeepers, and the Nethinim came up to Jerusalem in the seventh year of King Artaxerxes. 8 And Ezra came to Jerusalem in the fifth month, which was in the seventh year of the king. 9 On the first day of the first month he began his journey from Babylon, and on the first day of the fifth month he came to Jerusalem, according to the good hand of his God upon him.

 

[Larry H.]

"I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, *** It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity."

Hello, hope all is well. I have studied Daniel, what I would call only a small amount, but quickly found the order of reading is Chapters 1-4, 7-8, 5-6, 9-12. I have no idea why but it seems clear. However, I have studied Revelation extensively and it seems pretty close to chronological so I'm not sure how the above conclusion on Revelation was reached. Could you expound a little on it. BTW As I studied The Book of Revelation, If I were going to relate it to an OT book it would be Exodus. More specifically, chapter 5 to 12 covering the plagues of Egypt as well as relating it to the same concept God used there. Basically Egypt could have overcame the first Six plagues reasonably easy, but then after a stern warning of the last plagues, God clearly showed an increase of His wrath. God bless

 

[Soul_Tsunami]

Here is an interesting discussion Woolvard vs. Gundry

Taking the testimony of the Gospels as a whole, it may be concluded that the rapture is not found at all in Matthew, Mark, or Luke, although the second coming of Christ is clearly spoken of and the events which precede it are described. In John 14 Christ introduces for the first time the subject of His coming for His own and His taking them to the Father’s house. The somewhat desperate attempt of posttribulationists to spiritualize this passage and eliminate it as referring to the rapture is in itself a confession that the rapture is presented in John 14 as an event distinctive from the second coming. That Christ did not expound the details of the rapture here is understandable, for the disciples had many other spiritual and theological problems at the time. The full explanation awaited the revelation which would be given through Paul and which formed a central theme of the epistles he wrote to the Thessalonians.

Emerging in Gundry’s discussion of the rapture in the gospels are the same problems which surface in other posttributational approaches. Gundry does not apply the literal interpretation of prophecy in any consistent way, even though he claims to be a literalist, and it becomes very obvious that he is selecting only the facts that suit his argument, avoiding contradiction. This leads to an imperfect theological induction. When all the facts are taken into consideration, Gundry’s conclusions are shown to be questionable.

Walvoord, Matthew: Thy Kingdom Come

Gundry, The Church and the Tribulation

 

[Soul_Tsunami]

Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming​

Christ’s coming for His church is often designated as the Rapture. This is based on the statement of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where those who are resurrected, or translated, are “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” The idea of being “caught up” is embraced in the word rapture, or snatched up, and this is what will occur at the time of Christ’s coming for His church.

The Rapture, however, stands in sharp contrast to what will occur at the Second Coming.

(1) Christ’s coming at the Rapture is to take saints from the earth to the Father’s house in heaven, in contrast to the Second Coming, when the saints will come from heaven to earth and remain in the sphere of earth throughout Christ’s millennial kingdom.

(2) At the Rapture those who are “in Christ,” believers during the present age, will be resurrected from the dead, and living Christians will be translated, in contrast to the Second Coming, when no one will be translated.

(3) At the Rapture only the church is caught up to heaven in contrast to the Second Coming, when Old Testament saints and tribulation saints will be resurrected but remain in the earth.

(4) The Rapture of the church will remove the church before the time of judgment preceding the Second Coming, in contrast to the Second Coming, when believers on earth who are under persecution will be rescued by Christ but will remain in the earthly sphere.

(5) The Rapture is revealed in Scripture to be an imminent event, that is, there are no predicted events that precede the Rapture, in contrast to the Second Coming before which many important world-shaking prophecies must be fulfilled as seen in Revelation 6-18.

(6) The Rapture is a New Testament truth, whereas the doctrine of the second coming of Christ to the earth is revealed in both Testaments.

(7) The Rapture relates to those who are saved with no judgments on earth, in contrast to the Second Coming, which will deal with both saved and unsaved.

(8) Before and after the Rapture Satan will still be active, but after the Rapture Satan will be allowed even greater activity (2 Thess. 2:3-10; Rev. 12:12). At the Second Coming, however, Satan will be bound for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3).

(9) The purpose of the Rapture is to take saints from earth to heaven, in contrast to the Second Coming, which involves resurrection of the Old Testament saints and the tribulation saints who remain on earth. Later, at the Second Coming those raptured earlier will join those still living in the world who will enter the millennial kingdom.

(10) At the Rapture there is no judgment of the world, whereas Matthew 25:31-46 indicates that Gentiles will be judged in regard to entering the millennial kingdom. Also, Jews will experience a similar judgment (Ezek. 20:33-38).

(11) If all the saints had been raptured at the time of the Second Coming and met Christ in the air, the judgment of the Gentiles in Matthew 25:31-46 would be unnecessary, because there would have already been a separation of the saints from those not saved while Christ was coming from heaven to earth (1 Thess. 4:16-17). The fact that this judgment takes place after the Second Coming, when they are still intermingled, is proof that the Rapture did not take place as a part of the Second Coming.

(12) In Scripture the Rapture relates to the church, both living and dead, in contrast to the Second Coming, which relates primarily to Israel and the Gentiles as such.

(13) The Rapture is a blessed hope, a happy expectation, which could take place at any time, in contrast to the Second Coming, which can be realized only after the Great Tribulation when the majority of the earth’s population will have perished in one disaster or another.

(14) The Rapture is a comforting hope (John 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:18), in contrast to the Second Coming, where the hope of survival is realized only by a few.

(15) The world probably will not see Christ at the time of the Rapture as the church will be taken out of the world instantly, in contrast to the Second Coming, which is a majestic procession of the saints and angels from heaven to earth which will take many hours and the whole earth will see.

Woolvard: They Kingdom Come