VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

You say I’m wrong. You cite no Scriptures that prove it.

You apparently don’t understand the words “the dead in Christ.” “Those words represent a quantity of 100%. Tell me your reasoning for that not being true.

Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

Rev 20:5 is wholly about dead unbelievers; those who died in sin. It is they who will be judged at the GWTJ.

1 Th 4:16 is about the dead IN Christ and 1 Th 4:17 is about the living IN Christ.

Acts 1:11 forbids Jesus to be seen by unbelievers by the fact that He ascended only in the view of believers. The reverse fulfillment, being Acts 1:11, would require Jesus to descend into the view of believers, only.

1 Th 4:17 proves Jesus will descend only into the view of believers. He is hidden from the view of unbelievers — those who dwell on the earth — by the heavenly clouds cited in v17.

Even we won’t see Jesus until we pass through those same heavenly clouds in v17. Jesus truly is hidden behind clouds during all of the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 3:10 proves 1 Th 4:16-17 occur pre-Trib).

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

You are once again adding to Scripture. The next return of Jesus is the pre-Trib rapture. That is 1 Th 4:16-17.

The trumpet voice of Jesus sounds as He descends (not necessarily departing from Heaven). The dead in Christ (a 100% wording) will rise in their glorified bodies. Then, we will be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, into our glorified bodies. 1 Th 4:17 promises we will be TAKEN UP into the clouds to meet Jesus in the air.

A very good time and place to hold the Judgment Seat of Christ. John 14:3 will be fulfilled, and we’re in Heaven in our new homes.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

1 Th 4:16–17 are ALL of the dead in Christ and the living in Christ AS OF the pre-Trib rapture (Rev 3:10 and 1 Th 1:10).

There will be a gigantic revival in the Trib. The resulting saved souls are called the great multitude (GM). They are found in Rev 6:9-11 and Rev 20:4. They are all martyrs. They are resurrected together in the last sentence of Rev 20:4. They all have glorified bodies because they next are found in Heaven in Rev 7:9-17.

Jesus ascended in Acts 1:9, in the view of believers, only. Heavenly clouds hid Jesus, and He was then in Heaven.

Acts 1:11 therefore forbids Jesus to next return being seen by unbelievers. Jesus will therefore descend while hidden behind heavenly clouds, then into the view of believers, only. That’s EXACTLY what 1 Th 4:16–17 achieve with flawless and strict adherence. That is proven additionally by the fact that we who are raptured into those same heavenly clouds to meet Jesus, can’t see Jesus until we pass through those heavenly clouds.

We meet Jesus in the air (verse 17). Aside from the tremendous glory of being in the physical presence of God Almighty, Scriptures need to be fulfilled.

The Judgement Seat of Christ occurs (2 Cor 5:10-11), and we are led to our new homes in Heaven (John 14:2-3).

That kills your “Jerusalem” claim because Armageddon, the separation of the sheep and goats, and the MK all occur after the 2A.

The next prophesied return of Jesus Christ is for the pre-Trib rapture.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Revelation 20:5 is absolute proof that you are wrong.

That verse does not say 'all' the dead will rise when Jesus Returns. You are wrong again.

Those who are alive and remain, will be gathered to Jesus to where His will be; in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:31, Zechariah 14:4
We humans never go to live in heaven, that idea is not what God made us for.

They do not say that at all. You just want to be raptured. Too bad it won't happen and what is more God will ask you why you believed and promoted such unbiblical nonsense.

Keras, “the dead in Christ” is an absolute statement. It’s about the entire amount of the dead in Christ, as of the moment of its application. In this case, that moment will be for the pre-Trib rapture.

1 Th 4:17 says we will, together with newly raised dead in Christ, be raptured into the heavenly clouds that are keeping the unbelieving world below from seeing Jesus. We will then meet God Almighty, in the person of Jesus Christ.

There’s Scripture to fulfill at that and only at that moment: the Judgement Seat of Christ, and John 14:2-3.

The 2A has no part in the fulfillment of Acts 1:11. That verse is the prophecy about the pre-Trib rapture (1 Th 4:16-17).

 

[keras]

Delusions:

Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, no one answered; when I spoke, they did not hear: but they did evil before My eyes, and chose what displeased Me. Ezekiel 20:25

The prevalent error is in thinking that the Israel visible today is still the chosen of God. Wrong; they un-chose themselves, Matthew 27:25 and now it is every born again Christian, who belongs to the new nation of God's people. Matthew 21:43

With the rapture cult, the initial error is that of separating Israel and the Church, so they could still look for salvation to come to ethnic Israel, as a major tenet of their doctrine: Israel on earth, the Church in heaven. The pre-Trib rapture teaches removal to ensure survival from tribulation, but salvation has always been stated to redeem us from our fallen sinful state, in our earthly situation.

Acts 20:21 I know that when I am gone, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 2 Peter 2:1-3, 2 Timothy 4:3-4

The rapture idea is that God will “save us” from that which must occur – thus equating this supposed removal with salvation. After so many Christians saw the inadequacy and misappropriation of the verses used to promote Pre-Trib, the Post-Trib alternative was then built around surviving the tribulation – thus sustaining the illusion that survival is somehow related to salvation.

A strong delusion is mentioned in the New Testament: 2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this reason God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

This delusion has people looking forward to the 2nd Coming (in the so called rapture to heaven, Pre, Mid, or Post) believing in a rapture removal from the earth. The reality is, we experience His glorious salvation when we enter in to the blessed assurance that Christ’s Death means the penalty for our sin has been paid because of His sacrifice on the Cross. Ever since then, believers must trust in Jesus for their salvation and for their protection during the testing times to come. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 31:23-24

And if the Lord does not save them, just as has happened to the millions of martyrs in the last 20 centuries, then we must die trusting in His promise of resurrection. Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:10 Our souls will be kept under the heavenly Altar, Revelation 6:9-11, and Jesus will bring them with Him at His Return, then bring us to life again, to reign with Him for 1000 years. Revelation 20:4

Jesus said: take care that you be not deceived..... Seems that many have been rather careless!

 

[Sabertooth]

I would prefer a pre-trib rapture, but too many verses point to post-trib.
I echo Keith Green's advice,

"Pray for pre-, prepare for post-."​

​

(How is this thread a "vote," if it does not include a poll?)

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

I would prefer a pre-trib rapture, but too many verses point to post-trib.
I echo Keith Green's advice,

"Pray for pre-, prepare for post-."​

​

(How is this thread a "vote," if it does not include a poll?)

There are no verses that even speak of a rapture within the Trib or 2A (2nd Advent). Matt 24:31 looks like it could be a rapture verse, but it’s not a gathering “unto Him” as rapture verses tend to say (2 Th 2:1; and John 14:3).

The best guesses about where those folks in Matt 24:31 go are (1) into the armies following Jesus in Rev 17:14 or (2) those in Matt 25:35-40.

 

[Sabertooth]

...but too many verses point to post-trib.

There are no verses that even speak of a rapture within the Trib or 2A (2nd Advent).

The two passages that jump out at me are

1. The Parable of the Wheat & Tares, particularly Matt. 13:30. In that passage, the gathering of the unbelievers (for judgment) occurs before the gathering of the believers.
2. The Parable of the Wise & Foolish Virgins. The latter were convinced of an early arrival of the Bridegroom and not prepared to go the distance if they needed to.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

The two passages that jump out at me are

1. The Parable of the Wheat & Tares, particularly Matt. 13:30. In that passage, the gathering of the unbelievers (for judgment) occurs before the gathering of the believers.
2. The Parable of the Wise & Foolish Virgins. The latter were convinced of an early arrival of the Bridegroom and not prepared to go the distance if they needed to.

Are those verses about raptured to Heaven?

 

[Sabertooth]

Are those verses about raptured to Heaven?

#1 is, if #2 is not.
“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them,

but gather the wheat into my barn.”​

Parable explained:
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom

• all things that offend, and
• those who practice lawlessness,

42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Are those verses about raptured to Heaven?

You pre-Trib antagonists always bring up verses that sort of, kind of, maybe they are about the rapture.

Read 1 Th (Thess) 4:16-17. Those are “the official” (my emphasis) rapture verses. The big question is: When do they occur? Where’s your proof?

 

[Sabertooth]

The big question is: When do they occur?

Indeed.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

#1 is, if #2 is not.
“First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them,

but gather the wheat into my barn.”​

Parable explained:
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom

• all things that offend, and
• those who practice lawlessness,

42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.

Please read 1 Th 4:16-17 and show me there’s burning occurring.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

Please read 1 Th 4:16-17 and show me there’s burning occurring.

 

[Sabertooth]

Please read 1 Th 4:16-17 and show me there’s burning occurring.

There is no burning among the "harvested" believers.
Per that parable, [the believer's harvest] happens after the Tares, though some believers will be disturbed/distressed by the Tare "harvest" [Matt. 13:28-29].

God is delaying the judgment of the Tares in order to spare the Wheat.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There is no burning among the "harvested" believers.
Per that parable, [the believer's harvest] happens after the Tares, though some believers will be disturbed/distressed by the Tare "harvest" [Matt. 13:28-29].

God is delaying the judgment of the Tares in order to spare the Wheat.

Alright. Have your fun reinventing Scripture. Anyone can do a word search in the Bible and come up with verses that they want to SAY are about this or that.

The rapture is not in coded wording. 1 Th 4:16-17 are your guide.

 

[keras]

The rapture is not in coded wording. 1 Th 4:16-17 are your guide.

Neither is a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christian peoples ever actually stated in scripture.

What Paul guides us with is Prophesies like 2 Thess 2:1-4, where he states that we will see the 'adversary', that is: Satan coming to power and usurping God in the new Temple.
1 Thess 4:15 is quite clear; there will be living Christians on earth, who will meet Jesus when He Returns, then become His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10
There is no indication they will be fresh converts, as Rev 13:8 precludes that idea.

 

[Jeffrey Bowden]

There is no burning among the "harvested" believers.
Per that parable, [the believer's harvest] happens after the Tares, though some believers will be disturbed/distressed by the Tare "harvest" [Matt. 13:28-29].

God is delaying the judgment of the Tares in order to spare the Wheat.

There is no burning among the "harvested" believers.
Per that parable, [the believer's harvest] happens after the Tares, though some believers will be disturbed/distressed by the Tare "harvest" [Matt. 13:28-29].

God is delaying the judgment of the Tares in order to spare the Wheat.

Neither is a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christian peoples ever actually stated in scripture.

What Paul guides us with is Prophesies like 2 Thess 2:1-4, where he states that we will see the 'adversary', that is: Satan coming to power and usurping God in the new Temple.
1 Thess 4:15 is quite clear; there will be living Christians on earth, who will meet Jesus when He Returns, then become His priests and co-rulers. Rev 5:9-10
There is no indication they will be fresh converts, as Rev 13:8 precludes that idea.

The MK will go as Scripture says, in its time: after the 2A, Armageddon, and the separation of the sheep and goats.

Those who “dwell on the earth” are the unbelievers left behind upon the pre-Trib rapture.

The GM will be a great multitude of new converts. You repeatedly prove you do not understand Rev 6:9-11 and their connection to Rev 20:4. You won’t admit that connection because it upsets your theory about Rev 6. I vote for the Bible being correct; not you.

The rapture happens pre-Trib and very quickly. We are instantly changed into our glorified bodies: 1 Cor 15:52 (NIV): in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The last trumpet is in 1 Th 4:16:

1 Th 4:16 (ESV): For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

The rapture (1 Th 4:16-17) occurs pre-Trib because Jesus said so in Rev 3:10, “I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, …”

That whole verse is below.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

Whom are “you” in both mentions of that verse?

What does “keep you from” mean? Jesus will “keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world,…”

Who is specifically singled out ad “those who dwell on the earth?” That is a very, very demeaning description. Two verses make that clear:

Rev 11:10 (NKJV): And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Rev 17:2 (ESV): with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.”

“Those that dwell on the earth” are unbelievers. Jesus said we (believers) will be “kept from the hour of trial.” We are raptured to Heaven per John 14:2-3 and those who dwell on the earth are subject to the 21 judgments of God’s wrath.

 

[Sabertooth]

What are MK & GM?

 

[keras]

The GM will be a great multitude of new converts. You repeatedly prove you do not understand Rev 6:9-11 and their connection to Rev 20:4. You won’t admit that connection because it upsets your theory about Rev 6. I vote for the Bible being correct; not you.

Rev 13:3 & 8 prove you wrong. There will be very few if any, converts after the beast takes control.

You combine Rev 6:9-11 to Rev 20:4 and say the Bible is correct? That idea is a blatant shifting around of Revelation. A crime that will cost you.