keepitsimple144

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You’re not actually considering the implications of these verses of scripture. I feel like you’re overlooking them and not actually paying attention to what they’re teaching.
Break it down like I'm a two year old. What does Romans 6:23 actually mean?
Our theology shouldn’t be “whatever makes you sleep at night” it should be what does the Bible actually teach.
The irony is that those who can't stomach assurance of salvation in Christ wouldn't know the first thing about sound doctrine.
If you have to overlook certain passages in order to hold on to your theology then it’s not biblical.
Indeed. He became the source of eternal salvation...Heb 5:9 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
Sound doctrine isn’t whatever we want it to be it’s what is actually taught in the scriptures and if there are passages that contradict your theology then it’s not biblical.
What Scripture actually teaches is that those who reject Christ won't see the light of day.
Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, 2 Cor 4:3-4
 
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BNR32FAN

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Break it down like I'm a two year old. What does Romans 6:23 actually mean?
“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

It means that because of our sin we were destined to condemnation in the lake of fire but because Jesus died on the cross for our sins He saved us from that terrible fate and receiving the gift of eternal life isn’t based on our own efforts but instead it’s based on what He did for us on the cross. What it doesn’t tell us is the requirements for receiving salvation. In order to receive salvation we have to believe in the gospel AND ABIDE IN CHRIST. Nobody is saved just because they believed at one time then stopped believing. Reformed believers try to use 2 John 2:19 to support the idea that if someone falls away they were never actually a true believer but that doesn’t line up with what Paul wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:12 because both Paul and Timothy were true believers. So if Paul says that both he and Timothy are in fact capable of denying Christ and as a result Christ would deny them then obviously the way reformers are interpreting 2 John 2:19 cannot be correct. The same thing goes with James 5:19-20 “if he turns him BACK to the truth he will save his soul from death. In John 15:1-7 Jesus tells His 11 faithful apostles to ABIDE (remain) in Him and in verse 6 He tells them “anyone who does not abide in Me is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned”. He said this to them in the upper room after the Last Supper, after Judas had left to betray Him on the night He was arrested. So the only people who were present were the faithful 11 apostles who were true believers and had been following Him for 3 years. Your interpretation of 2 John 2:19 is incorrect because John was referring to a specific group of people who were antichrists. That statement does not apply to everyone who falls away because Jesus said that even the 11 faithful apostles could fall away and Paul said that even himself and Timothy could fall away.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The irony is that those who can't stomach assurance of salvation in Christ wouldn't know the first thing about sound doctrine.
No this is just a false accusation. I’m quoting scripture to prove my point.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Indeed. He became the source of eternal salvation...Heb 5:9 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. John 3:36
Why didn’t you quote the whole verse from Hebrews 5:9? Why did you omit the first half of it?

“And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5‬:‭9‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Is someone obeying Him if they fall away? Are they obeying Him if they deny Him? You just cherry picked the half of the only verse that uses the term “eternal salvation” and tried to use it to support the idea that anyone who has received salvation can’t lose it but that’s not what Hebrews 5:9 says. It doesn’t say anyone who ever believed has eternal salvation it says that He is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. There’s a stipulation there. And John 3:36 doesn’t support eternal security either because again there’s a stipulation there, they have to believe. “He who believes” present tense, not past tense. We have to abide in Christ in order to receive eternal life. That means stay, remain, continue. It doesn’t mean that someone can believe for a little while and they’re saved even if they stop believing.
 
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BNR32FAN

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What Scripture actually teaches is that those who reject Christ won't see the light of day.
Whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, 2 Cor 4:3-4
Then how do you explain 2 Timothy 2:12?

“If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

How are you applying this statement made by Paul to what you’ve said above? Was Paul a believer? Did he just say to Timothy that he is capable of denying Christ and Christ would deny him?

I need to know what your thoughts are on free will? Do we have it? Is it limited after we come to Christ?
 
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fhansen

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The Gospel has never been about God gradually working towards the New Covenant where He could finally reach people with the proper method.
Well, I don't know if "method' is the right word but in any case, yes, I believe that's exactly what God was doing. Jesus came in the "fullness of time", apparently because any earlier time would've been too soon for humanity, just as we as individuals aren't necessarily ready to accept and embrace the gospel until we're ready. Why didn't Jesus simply atone right after Adam's sin? Or why didn't God simply prevent Adam from sinning to begin with? The reason is that God gave man freedom so that he might come to freely choose the good for himself, and the experience of life in a relatively godless world provides knowledge which can help us make that choice. But that takes time. Wisdom isn't gained overnight for created beings.

And there's a corporate aspect to the experience and knowledge and wisdom gained by humanity. Sin, driven by human self-righteousness/selfishness/pride, had caused great amounts of harm and victimization and suffering down through the centuries. The law, alone, could not overcome this even in the Chosen People, a truth that they demonstrated repeatedly over time. Paul's own "righteousness" as a Pharisee was insufficient. In Rom 7 he laments this human condition, of wanting but not being able to obtain or even to continuously value the righteousness that he knew he should have. Experience and failures and disappointments tell us that there's something missing here; there must be more, there should be an answer. Learning had progressed as well. By the time Jesus came Greek philosophers had arrived at the necessity of a creator-God by reason alone, giving even less excuse for unbelief.
 
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RandyPNW

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Well, I don't know if "method' is the right word but in any case, yes, I believe that's exactly what God was doing. Jesus came in the "fullness of time", apparently because any earlier time would've been too soon for humanity, just as we as individuals aren't necessarily ready to accept and embrace the gospel until we're ready. Why didn't Jesus simply atone right after Adam's sin? Or why didn't God simply prevent Adam from sinning to begin with? The reason is that God gave man freedom so that he might come to freely choose the good for himself, and the experience of life in a relatively godless world provides knowledge which can help us make that choice. But that takes time. Wisdom isn't gained overnight for created beings.
You have a point. Freedom is what determines the time element in the process. But when we talk about God trying plan A, it don't work, then plan B, then we're no longer talking good sense. God didn't invent an inferior plan--it was all one plan. God didn't change in the process in how He approached Man--it was always via His word. God is, without question, consistent in all that He does. He doesn't change.

The Law was not a flawed model--it was exactly what God intended in the run up to the atonement of Christ. It fit the need of the moment, and worked as such. Israel's failures did not mean God's failures.

Rom 3.3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.

Rom 9.6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.


It is a legitimate question to ask why God waited so long before providing His final atonement. Why even have a preliminary atonement?

I can't say why myself--I just don't claim that God's preliminary system, ie the Law, was flawed or an errant step on the way to redemption. I would rather suggest something like a nation had to be created 1st in order for Messiah to approach the whole society of men with the choice for or against redemption.
And there's a corporate aspect to the experience and knowledge and wisdom gained by humanity. Sin, driven by human self-righteousness/selfishness/pride, had caused great amounts of harm and victimization and suffering down through the centuries. The law, alone, could not overcome this even in the Chosen People, a truth that they demonstrated repeatedly over time.
Neither the Law nor the Gospel was designed to immediately bring an end to injustice in the world. Rather, they reached out to people who were willing at the time, regardless of the fact some would reject them and regardless of whether the entire society rejected them at some point in their history.

I could hold a glass of cold water out to you and to a group, and the offering would prove its worth when you accept it and when the society accepts it. It may not solve the problem of thirst for all time but that does not thereby make the gift worthless or a failure.

Not even if in the future you reject this gift does it mean the offering was a failure because at one time you did accept it. And even if the society as a whole rejects the glass of water that doesn't mean the offering was fraudulent, a failure, or worthless--some did accept it, and at one time even the whole group benefited from it. The fact it was not a permanent fix for thirst does not invalidate the gift.

That's the way it was with the Law, and that's the way it is with the Gospel. Neither was has been a failure, and the fact the Law fell short of a permanent fix did not mean it lacked validity.
Paul's own "righteousness" as a Pharisee was insufficient.
You have to explain *why* Paul's righteousness as a Pharisee was insufficient. Was it because the original role of Pharisee was corrupt, or was it because the Pharisees at some point lost their way?

If a lawyer is corrupt should we say that the man failed because he was a lawyer? No. Neither should we say Paul failed righteousness simply because he held a religious office while under the Law. The Law was a perfectly acceptable system, as Jesus himself said. Jesus even said the Jews of his time should follow their teaching, when it corresponded with the Law.

It is not being under the Law that makes a man unrighteous. The Law was God's perfect standard for Israel at the time. Rather, the Law simply showed that Man was already a sinner even before he came under the Law. The Law was designed to remedy the separation between God and sinner in a temporary way, until final redemption had been won.

Jews could not obtain eternal Salvation while under the Law not because they were unrighteous but rather because their record of righteousness had to be dealt with by the grace of Christ's atonement. Their flaws, keeping them from the Tree of Life, had to be erased. And that could not come by human works, but only by Christ's works. A perfect man and a divine man was necessary to forgive sinful Man his sin.
 
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keepitsimple144

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“For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭6‬:‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬
It means that because of our sin we were destined to condemnation in the lake of fire but because Jesus died on the cross for our sins He saved us from that terrible fate and receiving the gift of eternal life isn’t based on our own efforts but instead it’s based on what He did for us on the cross. What it doesn’t tell us is the requirements for receiving salvation. In order to receive salvation we have to believe in the gospel AND ABIDE IN CHRIST.
What part of the righteous live by faith are you having a problem with?
So the only people who were present were the faithful 11 apostles who were true believers and had been following Him for 3 years.
Your interpretation of 2 John 2:19 is incorrect
because John was referring to a specific group of people who were antichrists.
I didn't give you any interpretation of 2 John 2:19
but for the record, I happen to be in agreement with 2 John 2:2
Because of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever;

And this is the record: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 1 John 5:11
No this is just a false accusation. I’m quoting scripture to prove my point.
You don't have to quote scripture to prove that you departed from the faith, I'll take your word for it.
Let your Yes be simply Yes, and your No be simply No; anything more than that comes from the evil one.
You just cherry picked the half of the only verse that uses the term “eternal salvation” and tried to use it to support the idea that anyone who has received salvation can’t lose it but that’s not what Hebrews 5:9 says. It doesn’t say anyone who ever believed has eternal salvation it says that He is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him. There’s a stipulation there. And John 3:36 doesn’t support eternal security either because again there’s a stipulation there, they have to believe. “He who believes” present tense, not past tense. We have to abide in Christ in order to receive eternal life.
Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves.
Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 2 Cor 13:5
I need to know what your thoughts are on free will? Do we have it? Is it limited after we come to Christ?
For if they had been of us, they would have continued with us;
But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 1 John 2:19-20

 
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