Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[The Liturgist]

Doesn't answer why you left Protestantism, but fair enough.

Because in the Orthodox Church I never have to worry about us capitulating to the world on issues like gay marriage, female sacramental presbyters and bishops*, abortion or other issues, or for that matter adopting praise and worship music.

*I don’t inherently object to female ministers in denominations where the priesthood is not a sacrament and where they already exist, but in the Orthodox Church, where Holy Orders are a sacrament, in our liturgy the presence of a female presbyter or bishop would be totally inappropriate. It would be even more inappropriate because of the special role presbyteras (the wives of presbyters) already have in our church.

Conversely I could not object to having deaconesses to assist in the baptism of women as the ancient canons clearly allow celibate women aged 60 and older to perform that ministry, if needed, which I find interesting because deacons assist with the Eucharist, and an Orthodox article called them “ministers of the chalice” and it sounds like the Deaconess of antiquity was a minister of the font.

 

[The Liturgist]

be that as it may, Joshua bowing before the pre-incarnate Christ didn’t change the fact that worship was still centered around the Tabernacle sacrifices.

Since God is eternal, and exists outside of created time, I have always regarded Old Testament Christophanies as appearances of the incarnate (and presumably risen) Christ, as a private theolougoumemnon. Since nothing would stop Him from appearing at arbitrary places in time, and save the three youths in the furnace or speak face to face with Moses or physically walk through the Garden of Eden. Since before our Glorious Lady Theotokos gave birth to Christ our true God, he would have been pnuematic like the Father and the Spirit, but to be clear this is theological speculation on my part.

I mention it for two reasons: firstly, in case I am wrong, and my speculation transgresses a teaching of our church I am unaware of, so you can correct me, and secondly, because if it is not wrong, the mere possibility underscores why hospitality is so important a virtue, and why we receive visitors at our monasteries and anywhere else as though they might be Christ (unless we know they are not, for example, I have heard but not confirmed thar Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, turned away a well known EC bishop who appeared fully vested and was obviously not there to convert).

 

[ArmyMatt]

Praise is worship. Worship is praise. When we praise God with our lips, we are worshiping Him. If you want to say that a sacrifice must be made in order for something to be considered worship, then I am simply saying that we are worshiping God as our very existence is a sweat aroma to him and aroma is something that is present in sacrifice.

that’s an assertion by you, that’s not the image we get from the Bible or history, since praise was never divorced from any sacrificial offering. that’s not what God tells Moses to do. if our very existence is a sweet aroma to Him, He would not have given specific instructions on how to sacrifice to Him, and He never said the offering was optional.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Since God is eternal, and exists outside of created time, I have always regarded Old Testament Christophanies as appearances of the incarnate (and presumably risen) Christ, as a private theolougoumemnon. Since nothing would stop Him from appearing at arbitrary places in time, and save the three youths in the furnace or speak face to face with Moses or physically walk through the Garden of Eden. Since before our Glorious Lady Theotokos gave birth to Christ our true God, he would have been pnuematic like the Father and the Spirit, but to be clear this is theological speculation on my part.

I mention it for two reasons: firstly, in case I am wrong, and my speculation transgresses a teaching of our church I am unaware of, so you can correct me, and secondly, because if it is not wrong, the mere possibility underscores why hospitality is so important a virtue, and why we receive visitors at our monasteries and anywhere else as though they might be Christ (unless we know they are not, for example, I have heard but not confirmed thar Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, turned away a well known EC bishop who appeared fully vested and was obviously not there to convert).

yep, although we would say it was Him pre-Incarnate. I remember asking this to one of my seminary professors.

 

[The Liturgist]

yep, although we would say it was Him pre-Incarnate. I remember asking this to one of my seminary professors.

I think I should post another thread about this so that you and other ordained members can go into further detail on this, because it is a fascinating subject, and your answer prompted about a dozen questions and I don’t want to derail the thread. Also this subject doesn’t seem to be heavily treated on in the usual references on our dogmatic theology.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

that’s an assertion by you, that’s not the image we get from the Bible or history, since praise was never divorced from any sacrificial offering. that’s not what God tells Moses to do. if our very existence is a sweet aroma to Him, He would not have given specific instructions on how to sacrifice to Him, and He never said the offering was optional.

No, it is something I am getting from scripture. We are in a new (and better) covenant. The same rules don't apply or carry over in many cases.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I think I should post another thread about this so that you and other ordained members can go into further detail on this, because it is a fascinating subject, and your answer prompted about a dozen questions and I don’t want to derail the thread. Also this subject doesn’t seem to be heavily treated on in the usual references on our dogmatic theology.

sure thing

 

[ArmyMatt]

No, it is something I am getting from scripture. We are in a new (and better) covenant. The same rules don't apply or carry over in many cases.

that’s not how the Apostle’s were in Acts, nor how the Christians were in the earliest centuries (both of which are in the new Covenant).

I get this is how you see it, but you have given no reason as to why you are correct, aside to just say this is how you see it.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

that’s not how the Apostle’s were in Acts, nor how the Christians were in the earliest centuries (both of which are in the new Covenant).

I get this is how you see it, but you have given no reason as to why you are correct, aside to just say this is how you see it.

Hebrews says there is no longer a need for a sacrifice because Christ was the final sacrifice.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hebrews says there is no longer a need for a sacrifice because Christ was the final sacrifice.

no, it doesn’t say there isn’t a need for a sacrifice. it says we don’t need the old sacrifices. Christ’s sacrifice is the sacrifice that we partake of. it’s that sacrifice that makes worship what it is.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

no, it doesn’t say there isn’t a need for a sacrifice. it says we don’t need the old sacrifices. Christ’s sacrifice is the sacrifice that we partake of. it’s that sacrifice that makes worship what it is.

No, we don't crucify Christ again. That was a one-time thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

No, we don't crucify Christ again. That was a one-time thing.

I never said we crucify Christ again. we clearly don’t.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I never said we crucify Christ again. we clearly don’t.

Christ's sacrifice was a one-time thing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Christ's sacrifice was a one-time thing.

I already agreed to that point.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I already agreed to that point.

Then what exactly are you sacrificing in worship?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Then what exactly are you sacrificing in worship?

we are participating in the once done sacrifice of Christ

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

we are participating in the once done sacrifice of Christ

How?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How?

the sacramental life of the Church, centered in the Eucharist.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

the sacramental life of the Church, centered in the Eucharist.

That's the "What" not the "How".

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's the "What" not the "How".

no, it’s the how. if you want specifics when you are baptized into Christ, you put on Christ Who was sacrificed on the Cross, when you are chrismated, you are sealed with the Spirit Who is sent through Christ, when you partake of the Eucharist, you become one flesh with Christ Who was sacrificed on the Cross, etc.