Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[Jesse Dornfeld]

no, it’s the how. if you want specifics when you are baptized into Christ, you put on Christ Who was sacrificed on the Cross, when you are chrismated, you are sealed with the Spirit Who is sent through Christ, when you partake of the Eucharist, you become one flesh with Christ Who was sacrificed on the Cross, etc.

That's all "what" and not "how". Like what is the mechanism for how this is done, in other words.

 

[ArmyMatt]

That's all "what" and not "how". Like what is the mechanism for how this is done, in other words.

partaking of the sacraments. ie when you consume the Eucharist, your body and blood become one with His.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

partaking of the sacraments. ie when you consume the Eucharist, your body and blood become one with His.

Again, that is "what" not "how".

 

[ArmyMatt]

Again, that is "what" not "how".

no it’s the how, taking the Eucharist is HOW you become one with that sacrificed flesh of our Lord.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

no it’s the how, taking the Eucharist is HOW you become one with that sacrificed flesh of our Lord.

Does not explain how it works. It explains what you are doing.

 

[Uriah S]

Jesse, I was reading something today which I think addresses what you are getting at. It's the idea that the crucifixion occurs outside the limits of time, so when the Eucharist is celebrated, it is only making the sacrifice (which has already occurred) “present”.

It was a Catholic article, but I think it broadly applies to Orthodox also, with some tweaking of phrases: 15 Common Catholic Church "Facts" Protestants Constantly Get Wrong

 

[ArmyMatt]

Does not explain how it works. It explains what you are doing.

I did explain how we do it, I guess (and I am being honest) I don’t get what you want to know? you way to know how the sacraments work? in what way?

and I am being sincere in my question so I can answer as best I can.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I did explain how we do it, I guess (and I am being honest) I don’t get what you want to know? you way to know how the sacraments work? in what way?

and I am being sincere in my question so I can answer as best I can.

How, metaphysically, does it go from sacrifice to worship? Like what's the magic in the water that makes only that worship?

 

[ArmyMatt]

How, metaphysically, does it go from sacrifice to worship? Like what's the magic in the water that makes only that worship?

it doesn’t go from sacrifice to worship, what makes worship is the centrality of the sacrifice which we participate in.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

sacrifice which we participate in.

We are going to have different ideas on this.

Thanks for your time. You have been very patient with me. It's appreciated.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We are going to have different ideas on this.

well, it’s what Christ says concerning the Eucharist.

Thanks for your time. You have been very patient with me. It's appreciated.

likewise

 

[har_habayit]

And also I can rest assured knowing we will never perform a gay marriage or endorse abortion or have a female priest or bishop

That must be really nice. Knowing that the liturgy will always be the same and that some things, like the gender of priests and debates about the marriage status, will never change in Orthodoxy. I feel like American evangelicalism, the religion I come from, is so intertwined with the culture and dependent on it in many ways, that a cultural shift may very well change the entire character of my church experience.

 

[The Liturgist]

That must be really nice. Knowing that the liturgy will always be the same and that some things, like the gender of priests and debates about the marriage status, will never change in Orthodoxy. I feel like American evangelicalism, the religion I come from, is so intertwined with the culture and dependent on it in many ways, that a cultural shift may very well change the entire character of my church experience.

Indeed it is extremely nice. And its not even the best part of being Orthodox, rather the true joy of Orthodoxy is closeness to God both through our exquisite solemn liturgies and our theology of prayer as outlined in the Philokalia, an anthology of works by early Byzantine theologians like St. Maximos the Confessor, St. Symeon the New and St. Gregory Palamas on prayer, asceticism, mystical theology, the Jesus Prayer and hesychasm. Also Orthodox doctrine aligns with what I had believed all my life, indeed what I was raised to believe by my mother, concerning the Eucharist, and other things.

 

[The Liturgist]

That's all "what" and not "how". Like what is the mechanism for how this is done, in other words.

The mechanism is the interaction of the people with the uncreated energies of God, especially in the person of the Holy Spirit, during the liturgies of Baptism, Chrismation and the bloodless and rational sacrifice of the Eucharist.

 

[The Liturgist]

it doesn’t go from sacrifice to worship, what makes worship is the centrality of the sacrifice which we participate in.

Indeed, the Eucharistic sacrifice is the summit of Orthodox worship . Every other Orthodox mystery or sacrament leads to the Eucharist, for example, Baptism and Chrismation prepare an infant or a catechumen for participation in it, Holy Matrimony ensures a steady supply of future Orthodox children, Holy Unction (anointing of the sick with oil) assists with comfort healing*, thus preserving Orthodox Christians or providing for their comfort when dying, Holy Orders (ordination) gives us more priests, and Reconciliation allows for the spritual benefits of private auricular confession so that our sins and other spiritual illnesses do not come between us and God. For example, I had for most of my life a terrible fear of hearses, until an Orthodox clergyman cured me from it in that sacrament. Now they don’t bother me. And he wasn’t even one of the better confessors I have had. I also have a starets or gerons (an elder) who helps in my spiritual formation.

What enables all of this is our interaction with the uncreated grace of God provided by the Holy Spirit. That is the “mechanism” if you insist on calling it that, but I regard it as spiritual and organic rather than mechanical, and it is certainly not magic.

Our priests are not wizards who point wands at things and change them via their own power, the idea of such is actually heretical, being related to Pelagianism and Gnosticism (salvation by secret knowledge). Simon Magus claimed to be a magician and a Zoroastrian mobed, or cleric, and claimed to have become an apostle, when in fact St. Peter politely told him to get lost when he offered money to be granted the power of the Apostles, and was the first practitioner of the heresy of Gnostic Christianity, which is centered around salvation through talismanic secret knowledge and ritual magic. Orthodoxy is opposed to Gnosticism for it along with the belief that those who believed Christians must become Jews as part of following Christ, were the first two heresies; we are equally opposed to later heresies like Marcionism, Sabellianism, Arianism, Nestorianism and Iconoclasm, to name a few.



*for example, my mother had a tumor that was miraculously reduced from one that according to the MRI would take at least eight hours to remove using MOHS microsurgery, and involve her losing the nerve controlling her left eye, but after she received the Oil of Healing, the plastic surgeon on the day of the procedure found it was entirely superficial and it was removed in 30 minutes and healed completely in six months

 

[The Liturgist]

By the way @ArmyMatt in attempting to answer @Jesse Dornfeld ’s post, please correct any errors I may have made, considering I wrote this at 4 AM, my sleep interrupted by digestive malfunction, and also you are more learned and pious than I am. Really I am such a vile sinner the best part of the Orthodox Church is that it still helps me despite my being unworthy, and some sinful passions I have become through the grace of God less beholden to.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Indeed, the Eucharistic sacrifice is the summit of Orthodox worship . Every other Orthodox mystery or sacrament leads to the Eucharist, for example, Baptism and Chrismation prepare an infant or a catechumen for participation in it, Holy Matrimony ensures a steady supply of future Orthodox children, Holy Unction (anointing of the sick with oil) assists with comfort healing*, thus preserving Orthodox Christians or providing for their comfort when dying, Holy Orders (ordination) gives us more priests, and Reconciliation allows for the spritual benefits of private auricular confession so that our sins and other spiritual illnesses do not come between us and God. For example, I had for most of my life a terrible fear of hearses, until an Orthodox clergyman cured me from it in that sacrament. Now they don’t bother me. And he wasn’t even one of the better confessors I have had. I also have a starets or gerons (an elder) who helps in my spiritual formation.

What enables all of this is our interaction with the uncreated grace of God provided by the Holy Spirit. That is the “mechanism” if you insist on calling it that, but I regard it as spiritual and organic rather than mechanical, and it is certainly not magic.

Our priests are not wizards who point wands at things and change them via their own power, the idea of such is actually heretical, being related to Pelagianism and Gnosticism (salvation by secret knowledge). Simon Magus claimed to be a magician and a Zoroastrian mobed, or cleric, and claimed to have become an apostle, when in fact St. Peter politely told him to get lost when he offered money to be granted the power of the Apostles, and was the first practitioner of the heresy of Gnostic Christianity, which is centered around salvation through talismanic secret knowledge and ritual magic. Orthodoxy is opposed to Gnosticism for it along with the belief that those who believed Christians must become Jews as part of following Christ, were the first two heresies; we are equally opposed to later heresies like Marcionism, Sabellianism, Arianism, Nestorianism and Iconoclasm, to name a few.



*for example, my mother had a tumor that was miraculously reduced from one that according to the MRI would take at least eight hours to remove using MOHS microsurgery, and involve her losing the nerve controlling her left eye, but after she received the Oil of Healing, the plastic surgeon on the day of the procedure found it was entirely superficial and it was removed in 30 minutes and healed completely in six months

By the way @ArmyMatt in attempting to answer @Jesse Dornfeld ’s post, please correct any errors I may have made, considering I wrote this at 4 AM, my sleep interrupted by digestive malfunction, and also you are more learned and pious than I am. Really I am such a vile sinner the best part of the Orthodox Church is that it still helps me despite my being unworthy, and some sinful passions I have become through the grace of God less beholden to.

looks good to me

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

What is the difference between "Exolting" and "Worshiping"?

 

[ArmyMatt]

What is the difference between "Exolting" and "Worshiping"?

what do you mean by exolting? do you mean extolling or exalting?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

what do you mean by exolting? do you mean extolling or exalting?

Extol.