Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[Jesse Dornfeld]

any historical evidence for this?

The fact that in Africa, under some forms of Christianity, it is expected to dance and sing, and sing loudly, while in a place like Sweden or Netherlands, the idea is someone contrary to this where if you would sing too loud, you would stick out like a sore thumb. In other words, the culture dictates what is an exceptable way to worship God. Again, it is not the method of worship that matters, but the heart behind it. I know of a missionary who basically did his doctorate on this idea. He told me in a text, more or less, "I am glad I am not the one to decide what kind of worship is acceptable to God."

true that He doesn’t, but we do. in fact, the only evidence from Scripture is God telling man how to worship or revealing how He is being worshipped.

Again, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but the Psalms are a form of worship. It is worship with our tongue and musical instruments and feeling to boot. This is why the Psalms are significant: because they tell us how to worship. I am not ruling out a homily or the eucharist as those being valid ways to worship, but singing along with music is a participatory way we show our affections toward God. What is worship? Honoring God. Like the example of prostration is an act of worship, so too is singing with musical accompaniment both in joyous noise and lament.

sure, but how does Scripture say this happens?

The scriptures say there are many ways God draws us to Himself. One of which is the beauty of creation.

Psalm 19:1 ESV
The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Psalm 57:11 ESV
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens!
Let your glory be over all the earth!

Psalm 115:1 ESV
Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!

Psalm 145:11 ESV
They shall speak of the glory of your kingdom
and tell of your power.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The fact that in Africa, under some forms of Christianity, it is expected to dance and sing, and sing loudly, while in a place like Sweden or Netherlands, the idea is someone contrary to this where if you would sing too loud, you would stick out like a sore thumb. In other words, the culture dictates what is an exceptable way to worship God. Again, it is not the method of worship that matters, but the heart behind it. I know of a missionary who basically did his doctorate on this idea. He told me in a text, more or less, "I am glad I am not the one to decide what kind of worship is acceptable to God."

do you have any hard evidence from history? as in from the beginning? I don’t care what many forms do by default, since many forms could be wrong.

and I mean about different ways of worship, not different local customs where the way of worship is the same.

Again, I hate to beat a dead horse here, but the Psalms are a form of worship. It is worship with our tongue and musical instruments and feeling to boot. This is why the Psalms are significant: because they tell us how to worship. I am not ruling out a homily or the eucharist as those being valid ways to worship, but singing along with music is a participatory way we show our affections toward God. What is worship? Honoring God. Like the example of prostration is an act of worship, so too is singing with musical accompaniment both in joyous noise and lament.

where does the Scripture equate the psalms with worship? and if the psalms tell us how to worship, why was the worship given to Moses centuries before the psalms were written?

The scriptures say there are many ways God draws us to Himself. One of which is the beauty of creation.

Psalm 19:1 ESV
The heavens declare the glory of God,
and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.

Psalm 57:11 ESV
Be exalted, O God, above the heavens!
Let your glory be over all the earth!

Psalm 115:1 ESV
Not to us, O LORD, not to us, but to your name give glory,
for the sake of your steadfast love and your faithfulness!

Psalm 145:11 ESV
They shall speak of the glory of your kingdom
and tell of your power.

gotcha, I misread that post. I thought of a different symphony that I think you meant. so I do agree with this point, sorry about that.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

do you have any hard evidence from history? as in from the beginning? I don’t care what many forms do by default, since many forms could be wrong.

"And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”" (Joshua 5:14)

There is no sacrifice in this example of worship. It is simply honoring God, the Angel of the Lord, who is Christ.

where does the Scripture equate the psalms with worship? and if the psalms tell us how to worship, why was the worship given to Moses centuries before the psalms were written?

Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? The Psalms are descriptive of worship. It is self-evidence that they are used as worship. The problem you seem to have is that you put the impetus on your own interpretation of what worship is without seeing it is clear that we can worship in other ways besides a sacrifice (such as bowing our head). When David rejoiced and danced and sang of what God had done, would you say this is not a way to honor God (which is how I interpret what worship is is honoring God).

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Here's a rendition of a song I like very much. If you focus on the words, it may mean something to you.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Here's the lyrics:

Hillsong Worship - Bright As The Sun Official Lyrics | Lyrics

Official Lyrics and Music Video of Wonder, a Hillsong UNITED song from the Wonder album

hillsong.com

 

[ArmyMatt]

"And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, “What does my lord say to his servant?”" (Joshua 5:14)

There is no sacrifice in this example of worship. It is simply honoring God, the Angel of the Lord, who is Christ.

what is “worship” in this in the original language?

Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? The Psalms are descriptive of worship. It is self-evidence that they are used as worship.

I am not disputing they are used in worship. that’s not the same as descriptive of worship or that they tell us how to worship. we obviously use the psalms in our services (we read the entire book weekly in the full order, and twice a week during Lent).

The problem you seem to have is that you put the impetus on your own interpretation of what worship is without seeing it is clear that we can worship in other ways besides a sacrifice (such as bowing our head).

well, it’s not my interpretation. I didn’t come up with it.

be that as it may, Joshua bowing before the pre-incarnate Christ didn’t change the fact that worship was still centered around the Tabernacle sacrifices.

When David rejoiced and danced and sang of what God had done, would you say this is not a way to honor God (which is how I interpret what worship is is honoring God).

sure, but honoring God isn’t the same as worshipping Him. done when worshipping Him to be sure, but that doesn’t mean those two are equated.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Here's a rendition of a song I like very much. If you focus on the words, it may mean something to you.

Here's the lyrics:

Hillsong Worship - Bright As The Sun Official Lyrics | Lyrics

Official Lyrics and Music Video of Wonder, a Hillsong UNITED song from the Wonder album

hillsong.com

I did and it’s nice. it’s something that I wouldn’t mind listening to in my car, but not in Church.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

what is “worship” in this in the original language?

I don't need to use Joshua. The point should be clear enough. Bowing down to some figure in reverence was historically known as worship (to someone you would consider a diety such as a king or some such).

Here's another example that is more clear. Can't weasel out of this one being worship explicitly and no sacrifice is done again.

"“I believe, Lord!” he said, and he worshiped him." (John 9:38)

 

[ArmyMatt]

I don't need to use Joshua. The point should be clear enough. Bowing down to some figure in reverence was historically known as worship (to someone you would consider a diety such as a king or some such).

not always, plenty of times folks bowed down before others and it wasn’t to God (like Moses to his father-in-law, Lot before two angels, etc)

Here's another example that is more clear. Can't weasel out of this one being worship explicitly and no sacrifice is done again.

"“I believe, Lord!” he said, and he worshiped him." (John 9:38)

again, it’s the same as before. it depends on what the definition of worship is in the original language. plus, you would have to show that this wasn’t tied to a sacrificial offering. we Orthodox do prostrations and bows all the time, and we even say things like “Before Thy Cross we bow in worship oh Master.” but that act of bowing down only becomes an act of worship since everything we do ties into and is centered on the sacrificial offering. no sacrificial offering it might be an act of respect or reverence, but it’s not worship.

not weaseling out of anything.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

not always, plenty of times folks bowed down before others and it wasn’t to God (like Moses to his father-in-law, Lot before two angels, etc)


again, it’s the same as before. it depends on what the definition of worship is in the original language. plus, you would have to show that this wasn’t tied to a sacrificial offering. we Orthodox do prostrations and bows all the time, and we even say things like “Before Thy Cross we bow in worship oh Master.” but that act of bowing down only becomes an act of worship since everything we do ties into and is centered on the sacrificial offering. no sacrificial offering it might be an act of respect or reverence, but it’s not worship.

not weaseling out of anything.

Seems like a pretty open-and-shut case to me.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Seems like a pretty open-and-shut case to me.

not if that same word was used when folks bowed down before people other than God.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

not if that same word was used when folks bowed down before people other than God.

Why do you think it cannot mean worship? Clearly, the lexicon says it can mean worship.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

When it says in the Bible that the prayers of the saints are a "sweat aroma" to YHWH, isn't that worship?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Why do you think it cannot mean worship? Clearly, the lexicon says it can mean worship.

I am just pointing out that it is also done NOT in acts of worship. which means that what makes worship actually worship would be something else. like I said before, we bow in our services and home prayers a lot, and yet that act alone isn’t worship.

 

[ArmyMatt]

When it says in the Bible that the prayers of the saints are a "sweat aroma" to YHWH, isn't that worship?

alone? no. there is something else which ties that into worship.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

which means that what makes worship actually worship would be something else.

Not a deduction you can make.

alone? no. there is something else which ties that into worship.

Where is that in the text?

"But thanks be to God, who always leads us in Christ’s triumphal procession and through us spreads the aroma of the knowledge of him in every place. For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. Who is adequate for these things? For we do not market the word of God for profit like so many. On the contrary, we speak with sincerity in Christ, as from God and before God." (2 Corinthians 2:14–17) (Emphasis mine)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not a deduction you can make.

sure I can. if the same word is used to describe what patriarchs and prophets due to humans and angels, it’s not worship alone unless you want to say that Moses worshipped his father-in-law.

Where is that in the text?

when God gives the pattern to Moses on the Mountain.

"But thanks be to God, who always leads us in Christ’s triumphal procession and through us spreads the aroma of the knowledge of him in every place. For to God we are the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing. To some we are an aroma of death leading to death, but to others, an aroma of life leading to life. Who is adequate for these things? For we do not market the word of God for profit like so many. On the contrary, we speak with sincerity in Christ, as from God and before God." (2 Corinthians 2:14–17) (Emphasis mine)

how does this quote back up your position?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

When it says in the Bible that the prayers of the saints are a "sweat aroma" to YHWH, isn't that worship?

He is likening it to the sweet aroma of a meat sacrifice or incense, a pleasing aroma to the Lord..

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

how does this quote back up your position?

Praise is worship. Worship is praise. When we praise God with our lips, we are worshiping Him. If you want to say that a sacrifice must be made in order for something to be considered worship, then I am simply saying that we are worshiping God as our very existence is a sweat aroma to him and aroma is something that is present in sacrifice.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That trend seems to be changing however, which is why Continuing Anglican churches and those places where one can still attend a Traditional Latin Mass after the devastation caused by Pope Francis in 2021 are so well attended, and also why most of our churches are growing. It also helps that Orthodox Christians for the most part have a high birthrate (and most Orthodox jurisdictions are opposed to contraceptives; I think only the Ecumenical Patriarchate and a few others, perhaps Alexandria, allow for them). GoArch is shrinking, but the AOCNA is growing, both due to converts and due to immigrants from Syria who are reproducing at a rapid rate, to an extent that offsets the losses. Also, all of the Oriental Orthodox churches are growing in membership, as is the Assyrian Church of the East. It seems those churches in the Middle East that have the most direct contact with Islamist violence are growing the fastest.

Saw this video so I thought I would post it here