Orthodox Liturgical Music and Concerns about Formalities

[Jesse Dornfeld]

by having beautiful churches with beautiful worship services that are pleasing to all the senses is needed

You were already a Christian at the time you "converted." Ever heard of the argument from beauty? That's what you are talking about. Still, as a monergist, I don't think I can convince anyone into the kingdom. It's the Holy Spirit's job to do that. In fact, I don't think I can really convince anyone of anything in general. People are inherently biased (as opposed to rational). We make judgments about our values all the time. My theory is that when we come across information that is "New" (information that contradicts our schema) we then have to decide if we are going to go back to the mire of our previously held beliefs or accept this new information as true. That's what our free will is based on IMO.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I'm not convinced of that. Jesus constantly spoke against the formal practices of the Pharisees. That's why He highlighted that the Law was not perfect, and had plenty of negative things to say about the traditions of men from the Pharisees.

He was against what they said and did not do. He did not like them adding and/or subtracting from Torah. He said they were hypocrites. But He definitely practiced the Judaism I described, you can bet on that! It says He went in to them "as was His custom". He kept Shabbat and the feasts.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

He was against what they said and did not do. He did not like them adding and/or subtracting from Torah. He said they were hypocrites. But He definitely practiced the Judaism I described, you can bet on that! It say He went in to them "as was His custom". He kept Shabbat and the feasts.

Yes, "His custom." Not the custom of everyone else as He is most certainly not like everyone else.

"And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes." (Matthew 7:28–29)

Doesn't sound like a very traditional teaching session to me.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, "His custom." Not the custom of everyone else as He is most certainly not like everyone else.

"And when Jesus finished these sayings, the crowds were astonished at his teaching, for he was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes." (Matthew 7:28–29)

Doesn't sound like a very traditional teaching session to me.

If they were Jews, YES IT WAS. Luke 4:16 says He did. Rabbis taught Torah and interpretation of Torah, sometimes they can differ. Yeshua taught it correctly because He was its author. Yeshua was born to observant parents and He was observant as well. So you tell me when did He stop being Jewish?

 

[The Liturgist]

I think a lot of the reluctance with Orthodoxy is modernity. We developed for 2000 years while many of these modern non-doms are very recent. Today, many people want modernity and not ancient.

That trend seems to be changing however, which is why Continuing Anglican churches and those places where one can still attend a Traditional Latin Mass after the devastation caused by Pope Francis in 2021 are so well attended, and also why most of our churches are growing. It also helps that Orthodox Christians for the most part have a high birthrate (and most Orthodox jurisdictions are opposed to contraceptives; I think only the Ecumenical Patriarchate and a few others, perhaps Alexandria, allow for them). GoArch is shrinking, but the AOCNA is growing, both due to converts and due to immigrants from Syria who are reproducing at a rapid rate, to an extent that offsets the losses. Also, all of the Oriental Orthodox churches are growing in membership, as is the Assyrian Church of the East. It seems those churches in the Middle East that have the most direct contact with Islamist violence are growing the fastest.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

If they were Jews, YES IT WAS. Luke 4:16 says He did. Rabbis taught Torah and interpretation of Torah, sometimes they can differ. Yeshua taught it correctly because He was its author. Yeshua was born to observant parents and He was observant as well. So you tell me when did He stop being Jewish?

Christ was certainly a Jew. You will get no argument from me there. However, Gentiles are not Jews and are not expected to act like Jews. Still, teaching on a mountain instead of a synagog is certainly not the traditional way to do things. Not to mention where Christ speaks of circumcision on the Sabbath.

 

[The Liturgist]

You were already a Christian at the time you "converted." Ever heard of the argument from beauty? That's what you are talking about. Still, as a monergist, I don't think I can convince anyone into the kingdom. It's the Holy Spirit's job to do that. In fact, I don't think I can really convince anyone of anything in general. People are inherently biased (as opposed to rational). We make judgments about our values all the time. My theory is that when we come across information that is "New" (information that contradicts our schema) we then have to decide if we are going to go back to the mire of our previously held beliefs or accept this new information as true. That's what our free will is based on IMO.

When I say I converted, I converted from one denomination to another. Like I said, I have full confidence in my baptism and frankly I would have been happy had the mainline Protestant church I was baptized into stayed the way it was in my childhood, but it capitulated on homosexuality, abortion, female clergy and liturgics, and even the doctrine of the Trinity by having a pastor who objected to the Nicene Creed and instead was effectively an Arian heretic, so I had no choice but to convert to a different denomination.

This would have been a conversion in any case. Actually joining Orthodoxy was particularly easy for me; due to unusual circumstances the time from when I decided I wanted to become Orthodox and my first receiving the Eucharist was one week. Usually prospective members spend a few months as catechumens before being received. Likewise, converting to the Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church takes a bit of time.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

so I had no choice but to convert to a different denomination.

Doesn't answer why you left Protestantism, but fair enough.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

That trend seems to be changing however, which is why Continuing Anglican churches and those places where one can still attend a Traditional Latin Mass after the devastation caused by Pope Francis in 2021 are so well attended, and also why most of our churches are growing. It also helps that Orthodox Christians for the most part have a high birthrate (and most Orthodox jurisdictions are opposed to contraceptives; I think only the Ecumenical Patriarchate and a few others, perhaps Alexandria, allow for them). GoArch is shrinking, but the AOCNA is growing, both due to converts and due to immigrants from Syria who are reproducing at a rapid rate, to an extent that offsets the losses. Also, all of the Oriental Orthodox churches are growing in membership, as is the Assyrian Church of the East. It seems those churches in the Middle East that have the most direct contact with Islamist violence are growing the fastest.

Yes, there has been many converts entering Orthodoxy, especially here in the US. However, I am speaking about mostly those that these newer churches speak to...even mega churches. It is just too "foreign" to them.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Christ was certainly a Jew. You will get no argument from me there. However, Gentiles are not Jews and are not expected to act like Jews. Still, teaching on a mountain instead of a synagog is certainly not the traditional way to do things. Not to mention where Christ speaks of circumcision on the Sabbath.

At the time it actually was. There were many of these roaming preachers (John was too). Adam and Noah were not Jews but they also followed laws. There were laws given to goyim in Acts.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

At the time it actually was. There were many of these roaming preachers (John was too). Adam and Noah were not Jews but they also followed laws. There were laws given to goyim in Acts.

There is a lot of significance with mountains in the Bible. But I'm going to need an example of a traditional Rabbi at the time of Jesus who taught on a mountain first before I abandon my idea that it was not a traditional way to teach.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

There were laws given to goyim in Acts.

Yes, and they were a lot less rigorous than what Jews had to adhere to.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

There is a lot of significance with mountains in the Bible. But I'm going to need an example of a traditional Rabbi at the time of Jesus who taught on a mountain first before I abandon my idea that it was not a traditional way to teach.

Why are you stuck on it having to be on a mountain (which in reality wasn't a mountain). Many spoke from the Temple steps, others out in the countryside (like John) and others in other areas. Josephus mentions a bunch in his writings.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Why are you stuck on it having to be on a mountain (which in reality wasn't a mountain).

You should be able to figure this out from the post I quoted.

Many spoke from the Temple steps, others out in the countryside (like John) and others in other areas. Josephus mentions a bunch in his writings.

Can you give me an example from Josephus?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, and they were a lot less rigorous than what Jews had to adhere to.

So was what Yeshua said just for Jews then? So what about if you covet your neighbors wife in your mind it is really like you have already committed adultery? How about anger to your neighbor is the same as murder? These are 10 Commandments. Do you not believe these are for goyim who believe?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

You should be able to figure this out from the post I quoted.



Can you give me an example from Josephus?

I understand the significance of mountains. I am asking why these other Jewish preachers needed to preach from a mountain to change your mind. Yeshua did not always preach from a mountain. You should read Josephus. One famous one was Shimon of Perea. Another was named Theudas.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

So was what Yeshua said just for Jews then? So what about if you covet your neighbors wife in your mind it is really like you have already committed adultery? How about anger to your neighbor is the same as murder? These are 10 Commandments. Do you not believe these are for goyim who believe?

Gentiles do not need to keep the 613 laws as even the Jews at this time are unable to do so. I think it is easy enough to tell when you are in sin with just a bit of contemplation. No need for a rulebook for that as we have the Holy Spirit. The sermon on the mount does indeed take from the Law. And yes, it tells us how none of us can follow the Law perfectly. But some of the things in the Law are outdated. Certainly, you would agree with that, right? So I guess I will ask you straight up if you think Gentiles have to act like Jews.

Jesus came down very hard on the Pharisees. Why? Was it just the condition of their hearts? Certainly, this was the biggest piece. But they added to the Law and that was just as bad in the eyes of Jesus. Christianity is not about dotting our i's and crossing our t's. If that is the sort of thing you are into, I would suggest Buddhism.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Gentiles do not need to keep the 613 laws as even the Jews at this time are unable to do so. I think it is easy enough to tell when you are in sin with just a bit of contemplation. No need for a rulebook for that as we have the Holy Spirit. The sermon on the mount does indeed take from the Law. And yes, it tells us how none of us can follow the Law perfectly. But some of the things in the Law are outdated. Certainly, you would agree with that, right? So I guess I will ask you straight up if you think Gentiles have to act like Jews.

Jesus came down very hard on the Pharisees. Why? Was it just the condition of their hearts? Certainly, this was the biggest piece. But they added to the Law and that was just as bad in the eyes of Jesus. Christianity is not about dotting our i's and crossing our t's. If that is the sort of thing you are into, I would suggest Buddhism.

No one can ever keep ALL the mitzvot. What IS sin? HOW do you know you are sinning? If there is no law then no sin and no need for grace. Shaul says you gentiles are grafted in. What is "acting like a Jew"? Trying to follow His laws? Some say the NT has almost double the amount of laws! The intent of the law is as important as the law itself. When we break them, we ask for forgiveness? You have to stop thinking black and white. Do you see yourself in this passage and if so, how:

Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

What IS sin? HOW do you know you are sinning?

Sin is imperfection from holiness. I am sinning right now as I am not acting perfectly.

Some say the NT has almost double the amount of laws!

Imperatives are not laws.

You have to stop thinking black and white.

What gave you the idea I was thinking in black and white?

Do you see yourself in this passage and if so, how

Seems to be a prophecy that has not happened yet.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Sin is imperfection from holiness. I am sinning right now as I am not acting perfectly.



Imperatives are not laws.



What gave you the idea I was thinking in black and white?



Seems to be a prophecy that has not happened yet.

Sin is imperfection from holiness. I am sinning right now as I am not acting perfectly. (What is your ruler for that? What are you measuring that statement against?)
What gave you the idea I was thinking in black and white? (because it seems many non-denom or modern Christians are all or nothing, so anti-nomian)
Seems to be a prophecy that has not happened yet. (so you think there is no new covenant in place...please explain in light of what was said at the last supper)