Jesse Dornfeld

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What is your ruler for that? What are you measuring that statement against?

Certainly not black-and-white rule-keeping.

because it seems many non-denom or modern Christians are all or nothing, so anti-nomian

Okay, maybe consider that everyone is different. Yes, I am non-denom, but that does not mean I am just like all non-denoms. Try not to overgeneralize.

so you think there is no new covenant in place...please explain in light of what was said at the last supper

Could be about the millennial kingdom or the great tribulation.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Certainly not black-and-white rule-keeping.



Okay, maybe consider that everyone is different. Yes, I am non-denom, but that does not mean I am just like all non-denoms. Try not to overgeneralize.



Could be about the millennial kingdom or the great tribulation.
Then what if it is not law? I said it "seems" but you do seem anti-nomian. Millenium kingdom or tribulation? In what way? What about what Yeshua said at the last supper? Was that not true?
 
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Then what if it is not law?

Christ set us free from the Law. We now have the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. When we quench the Holy Spirit, we are sinning. If someone could listen to the Holy Spirit perfectly, that person would do just as great of works as Christ Himself and greater even. I simply put the bar higher than you would probably like to think about.

I said it "seems" but you do seem anti-nomian.

I'm certainly not dispensational if that is what you are inquiring about. I do not believe that we are saved by our works. We are rewarded for our works, yes, but this does not merit our salvation. I do believe in repenting of sin for without this, salvation is not possible. I do not believe that salvation gives us a license to sin. On the contrary, the closer we are to God, the less we will sin and to add the closer we are to God the more sins we will be aware of doing. I do not believe in OSAS, but this too is about the condition of our hearts. If we quench the Spirit enough, we forfeit our salvation never to return to it.

Millenium kingdom or tribulation? In what way? What about what Yeshua said at the last supper? Was that not true?

You will have to tell me what you are seeing that you think I am calling Christ a liar.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Christ set us free from the Law. We now have the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. When we quench the Holy Spirit, we are sinning. If someone could listen to the Holy Spirit perfectly, that person would do just as great of works as Christ Himself and greater even. I simply put the bar higher than you would probably like to think about.

You will have to tell me what you are seeing that you think I am calling Christ a liar.
Do you believe then the the Holy Spirit is against the law? A house divided can not stand. We were set free from its curse...death. The wages of sin is death, the curse of the law. Yeshua became a curse for us. I asked you do you not believe what Yeshua said at the last supper regarding the NC. Shalom Jesse.
 
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Do you believe then the the Holy Spirit is against the law?

The Law was never perfect. If it was, it would still be in effect. What is the Law for? To show us our sin. That is the purpose of the Law. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, we do not need the Law. Now, I do believe that people who were saved in the Old Covenant had the Holy Spirit, but in a very limited sense. And it's certainly not something I would be dogmatic of as Christ preached in Hades and I believe those that were faithful to Him in life received Him at that time. There is a new "Law" we have now which is listening to the Holy Spirit. Those who do not have the Holy Spirit are spiritually dead inside. Their spirit is dead, in other words. They have no ability to please God. We can please God by listening to the promptings of the Holy Spirit. Not so much as the "still small voice" but in obeying our conscience. Do we need a Law to do good? Does the Holy Spirit need the Law to do what He does? I would say the Holy Spirit supersedes the Law as He was part of creating it. The Law is not perfect. If the Law was perfect, then it would be impossible to circumcise on the Sabbath or to pull your ox out of a ditch on the Sabbath. If we listen to the Holy Spirit, we do not need the Law whatsoever. This new Law is a good thing. It is the ability to obey God with our hearts. I say all this as adhering to moral objectivism. But sometimes there is a lesser sin that God will allow, such as lying to save the life of someone.

A house divided can not stand. We were set free from its curse...death. The wages of sin is death, the curse of the law.

People still die. Christ died.

I asked you do you not believe what Yeshua said at the last supper regarding the NC.

Why would you ask such a silly question?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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The Law was never perfect. If it was, it would still be in effect. What is the Law for? To show us our sin. That is the purpose of the Law. Now that we have the Holy Spirit, we do not need the Law. This new Law is a good thing. It is the ability to obey God with our hearts. I say all this as adhering to moral objectivism. But sometimes there is a lesser sin that God will allow, such as lying to save the life of someone.

People still die. Christ died.

Why would you ask such a silly question?
What does Psalm 19:7 say regarding the law? It shows our sin when we disobey it. It brings with it a curse...death. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. Death is the curse of the law. Yeshua became a curse for us. Yes we all die a physical death. The Nahash in Gan Eden said the same thing to Chavah and what did IT mean...you surely shall not die? It is from the second death we are saved. There is a principle in Judaism called "Pikuach Nefesh" which supersedes the law. Even Yeshua said it..."therefore it is permitted to do good on Shabbat." Silly question? Because you said maybe it will be in the millenium or tribulation, which implied to me you did not think it was instituted at the last supper.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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What does Psalm 19:7 say regarding the law? It shows our sin when we disobey it. It brings with it a curse...death. Sin is the transgression of the law. The wages of sin is death. Death is the curse of the law. Yeshua became a curse for us. Yes we all die a physical death. The Nahash in Gan Eden said the same thing to Chavah and what did IT mean...you surely shall not die? It is from the second death we are saved. There is a principle in Judaism called "Pikuach Nefesh" which supersedes the law. Even Yeshua said it..."therefore it is permitted to do good on Shabbat." Silly question? Because you said maybe it will be in the millenium or tribulation, which implied to me you did not think it was instituted at the last supper.

Sin is separation from God. Sin does not need to be a transgression. It can also be an iniquity. The Day of Atonement was about covering sins that the Israelites did not know they had done. That is an iniquity. Christ said it is permitted to do good on the Sabbath, obviously. Paul says everything is permitted, but not everything is good for us.

You are going to have to tell me why you think I do not believe Christ instigated the second covenant. There are verses in the OT about the second covenant, but there are also OT passages about the millennial reign and such. So please clarify how you are getting the idea I have my prophecies wrong. I simply took the straightforward reading of the text.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sin is separation from God. Sin does not need to be a transgression. It can also be an iniquity. The Day of Atonement was about covering sins that the Israelites did not know they had done. That is an iniquity. Christ said it is permitted to do good on the Sabbath, obviously. Paul says everything is permitted, but not everything is good for us.

You are going to have to tell me why you think I do not believe Christ instigated the second covenant. There are verses in the OT about the second covenant, but there are also OT passages about the millennial reign and such. So please clarify how you are getting the idea I have my prophecies wrong. I simply took the straightforward reading of the text.
Sin is what separates us from Him. Yes, but they were still transgressions of Torah in some way, intentional or unintentional. No, you have to explain why you said it might be in the millenium or tribulation and NOT at the last supper.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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Sin is what separates us from Him. Yes, but they were still transgressions of Torah in some way, intentional or unintentional. No, you have to explain why you said it might be in the millenium or tribulation and NOT at the last supper.

Sin is in us. It is literally a part of us. 1 John 1:8 makes that abundantly clear in contrast to 1 John 1:10.

It is speaking of Israel, not Christianity. Gentiles were grafted in. Gentiles are in because the majority of Jews are out. And as it is said, God can remove Gentiles if He wants. That's His prerogative.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Sin is in us. It is literally a part of us. 1 John 1:8 makes that abundantly clear in contrast to 1 John 1:10.

It is speaking of Israel, not Christianity. Gentiles were grafted in. Gentiles are in because the majority of Jews are out. And as it is said, God can remove Gentiles if He wants. That's His prerogative.
OK so you agree that the NC was instituted at the last supper?
 
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The Liturgist

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I would like to get the opinion of @dzheremi on this issue because the Coptic Orthodox Church recently successfully eradicated a major outbreak of praise and worship music and thwarted a larger conspiracy of evangelicals who were trying to take over parishes in the extra-diocesan areas of the United States and also those parts of Egypt where the episcopacy was vacant, by getting rid of the extra-diocesan areas and appointing diocesan bishops to cover all the territories of the church in Egypt and the US, for example, the previously vacant cathedra of the Diocese of Muqattam, where His Holiness Pope Tawadros (Theodore) II (who is good friends with his Greek Orthodox counterpart, also named Theodore II) appointed a super-conservative bishop, HG Abanoub, who quickly restored tradition. When he arrived the cathedral had been remodeled to look like a movie theater and people hadn’t been to confession in over fifteen years in some cases.

Since we are in St. Justin’s Corner, where Oriental Orthodox could theoretically debate Eastern Orthodox, and since they can post in fellowship regardless, I think his opinion would offer valuable insight, because praise and worship music was part of an aforementioned Protestant plot to take over parts of the Coptic Orthodox Church. This was coupled with evangelicals working to influence Coptic priests, and the sale in Coptic bookstores of books like The Purpose Driven life. It was an actual organized conspiracy in both the US and Egypt, and what enabled it was the lack of diocesan bishops, meaning only the Pope of Alexandria had authority in those parts of the US outside of the Diocese of the South and the Diocese of Los Angeles. The epicenter of the movement I have heard was St, Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Church in Washington DC, which seems strange to me because that church released a series of very excellent recordings of Coptic Orthodox liturgical music, looked very Coptic and also had Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, give a lecture there.

The Coptic Orthodox Church which is Oriental Orthodox but in a close ecumenical relationship with the Greek Orthodox Church of Alexandria (and whose pilgrims I have heard reports of receiving the Eucharist at St. Catharine’s Monastery in Sinai, which is part of the autonomous Church of Sinai under the Omophorion of His Beatitude the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, and in the Church of Jerusalem, especially at the Holy Sepulchre, I doubt such intercommunion would happen due to the unfortunately excessively fraught situation, where there exists bitterness due to the strictures of the Status Quo agreement and the headaches it causes, like the Immovable Ladder (which by the way terrifies me; I don’t think there’s enough money in the world to pay me to climb on that rickety 18th century ladder, and what is more, the ledge it leads to has partially collapsed, so as I see it the ladder is now mainly a museum piece; I would like to see it turned into part of an iconographic display in honor of St. John Climacus or perhaps the Stylite Hermits. But I digress.

Also I would like to invite some other proponent of praise and worship music to join us so this is not just the Orthodox vs. Jesse Dornfield, but ideally someone who is not a polemicist but someone who can make for a more edifying dialogue in the Socratic tradition. Because my goal for this thread is to have a mutually edifying dialogue, using the Socratic dialectic process, where we learn things and the supporters of praise and worship music learn things as well. It is not proselytism or to have a big old ruckus, which would violate the Orthodox principle of apatheia. I think having really tooth and nail polemical debates that one gets emotionally upset by is something we as Orthodox should try to avoid, but it is also something I am very guilty of.
 
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Yes. Is this a trick question?

Just so you know, asking trick questions is in my opinion usually contrary to the teachings of the Orthodox Church*. That doesn’t mean we don’t do it, but rather that we shouldn’t, and I think the Orthodox members of the forum do a very good job of avoiding it. That said frequently we do ask short questions to try and understand where someone else Is coming from, or ask them a question as a means of stimulating thought.

*The exception would be if an attorney in a court of law has to ask leading questions of a hostile witness.
 
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dzheremi

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When I say I converted, I converted from one denomination to another. Like I said, I have full confidence in my baptism and frankly I would have been happy had the mainline Protestant church I was baptized into stayed the way it was in my childhood, but it capitulated on homosexuality, abortion, female clergy and liturgics, and even the doctrine of the Trinity by having a pastor who objected to the Nicene Creed and instead was effectively an Arian heretic, so I had no choice but to convert to a different denomination.

This would have been a conversion in any case. Actually joining Orthodoxy was particularly easy for me; due to unusual circumstances the time from when I decided I wanted to become Orthodox and my first receiving the Eucharist was one week. Usually prospective members spend a few months as catechumens before being received. Likewise, converting to the Roman Catholic Church or the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod or the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church takes a bit of time.

How did I not know until right now that you have formally converted to Orthodoxy? I'm sorry, friend! I would've offered formal congratulations, had I known this!

Congratulations -- or as they say in Arabic, a thousand congratulations!
 
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I would like to get the opinion of @dzheremi on this issue because the Coptic Orthodox Church recently successfully eradicated a major outbreak of praise and worship music and thwarted a larger conspiracy of evangelicals who were trying to take over parishes in the extra-diocesan areas of the United States and also those parts of Egypt where the episcopacy was vacant, by getting rid of the extra-diocesan areas and appointing diocesan bishops to cover all the territories of the church in Egypt and the US, for example, the previously vacant cathedra of the Diocese of Muqattam, where His Holiness Pope Tawadros (Theodore) II (who is good friends with his Greek Orthodox counterpart, also named Theodore II) appointed a super-conservative bishop, HG Abanoub, who quickly restored tradition. When he arrived the cathedral had been remodeled to look like a movie theater and people hadn’t been to confession in over fifteen years in some cases.

HG Bishop Abanoub does not strike me as a particularly conservative bishop -- just a regular one dealing with a situation that was obviously out of control by the time he was appointed to deal with it. I've heard the same sorts of things that he told the worshippers at Muqattam from other bishops like HG Bishop Serapion of L.A. and HG Bishop Suriel of Australia (as he was at the time), neither of which are thought of as being especially conservative. I get the feeling that the conservative/liberal dynamic that might make sense in other churches is only kind of half-formed with regard to the Coptic Orthodox Church, at least insofar as I can tell from my vantage point. By that, I mean that everyone seems to (eventually) know about the trouble spots where things are clearly too liberal (that's precisely how HH knew where to send the group of bishops to investigate complaints in parts of the USA and Canada), but as far as places being too conservative, I don't know where those would be. Maybe some people would say about the places overseen by "H.E. who shall not be named" of Damietta, Kafr el-Sheikh, and the monastery of St. Demiana, but even then people usually mean that in a "I wish he'd stop putting his foot in his mouth and making things more difficult than they need to be" sort of way, rather than saying that he's too liturgically conservative or whatever.

Anyway, I don't know what you want me to say about what HG managed to do at Muqattam that he hasn't already said himself, so here are the videos I always share of him yelling at people and generally cleaning house, as it absolutely right given the circumstances. (It should be clarified here, as we are in EO territory so people here might not know this, that it is considered extremely unusual in the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular to abstain from the Eucharist, so going years without it or without confession when you are in a place where both are frequently availed of is an incredibly serious matter; it's not like some other churches wherein cultural attitudes or entrenched practices might make it so that people will only receive the Eucharist a few times a year. You are to receive, and you are to receive frequently. So if there were ever a situation wherein it would be seen as appropriate to address people as HG does below, this would be it.)




For some reason, the captions that used to be automatically included in the second video are now no longer available, but the uploader provided a handy translation of what HG is saying in the upload information box, which reads (with a small amount of syntactic clean-up by me):

"Here we will sing Orthodox hymns, which all 20 million Coptic Orthodox rejoice in. He who wants to sing Protestant, or non-Orthodox, hymns is free to leave along with those we have already sent out, and here we will sing Orthodox hymns."

That really is the long and short of it: If you don't want to follow the Orthodox faith, including chanting its hymns, you are free to leave. Here we will sing Orthodox hymns, as all the Church does and rejoices in doing. Period, end of story.

There's really no excuse for not doing that, when you think about it.
 
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That really is the long and short of it: If you don't want to follow the Orthodox faith, including chanting its hymns, you are free to leave. Here we will sing Orthodox hymns, as all the Church does and rejoices in doing. Period, end of story.
this. as if we know better than the saints who have been consistent in their music from the beginning.
 
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It was an actual organized conspiracy in both the US and Egypt, and what enabled it was the lack of diocesan bishops, meaning only the Pope of Alexandria had authority in those parts of the US outside of the Diocese of the South and the Diocese of Los Angeles. The epicenter of the movement I have heard was St, Mark’s Coptic Orthodox Church in Washington DC, which seems strange to me because that church released a series of very excellent recordings of Coptic Orthodox liturgical music, looked very Coptic and also had Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, memory eternal, give a lecture there.
Wow, I had not heard about that! I think I have a CD from that Church! I think it is actually located in northern VA.
 
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Jesse Dornfeld

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this. as if we know better than the saints who have been consistent in their music from the beginning.

Hope this was not aimed at me. I think I have made my position clear: different churches (and cultures) have different ways of worshipping. And again, I'm not forcing my way of worship on anyone. But I believe that in the grace of our Lord Jesus, God can use and even sometimes enable different forms of worship. He does not need things to be a specific way. Again, I say, it is about the posture of our hearts. Just as prostration is a sign of respect and honor towards God, so too, our heart can have this posture without the bodily posture being there, just as with different forms of worship as it is always a matter of the heart. Perhaps even a beautiful symphony can get someone to see the beauty of Christ. I am not one to judge how and why someone comes to faith in Messiah Christ.
 
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Hope this was not aimed at me.
it wasn’t.

I think I have made my position clear: different churches (and cultures) have different ways of worshipping.
any historical evidence for this?

He does not need things to be a specific way.
true that He doesn’t, but we do. in fact, the only evidence from Scripture is God telling man how to worship or revealing how He is being worshipped.

Again, I say, it is about the posture of our hearts. Just as prostration is a sign of respect and honor towards God, so too, our heart can have this posture without the bodily posture being there, just as with different forms of worship as it is always a matter of the heart.
agreed.

Perhaps even a beautiful symphony can get someone to see the beauty of Christ.
sure, but how does Scripture say this happens?

I am not one to judge how and why someone comes to faith in Messiah Christ.
sure, but that’s not what we’re talking about.
 
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