On Icon Veneration (and other topics)

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Please remember that this is NOT a debate forum or a place to argue or teach against Orthodox teachings. There is a debate sub-forum if you want to do that. Check out the Statement of Purpose for more details.

Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression it was a place where we could debate about matters of the Orthodox faith.

 

[HTacianas]

Was that really icon veneration though? Talk of icons and images is not synonymous with worshipping though them. Nor is it clear that this is how the early church interpreted it (they didn't view it that way at all, in fact).



When he quotes non-Protestant consensus on the matter of icon veneration from church history, he is not misrepresenting anyone. That is why the sticking point is that icon veneration (not just Christian use of art) was not a matter of debate until the 7th century. If you can give me a quote from an ECF about icon VENERATION prior to the 7th century, I'd be please to look at the context.

Icon veneration did not become a debate until the 7th century. And it's not like someone just up and decided to start venerating icons. The Church in the East was under pressure from the spread of Islam and held the iconoclast Synod to end the practice. You cannot end something unless it has already begun.

 

[All4Christ]

Oh, I'm sorry. I was under the impression it was a place where we could debate about matters of the Orthodox faith.

I deleted my post a few minutes ago because I realized I was mistaken on the location of the thread. I apologize for the mistake.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

“Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection in our soul.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria 39th Question to Antiochos, Patrologia Graeca

I will be sure to look into this, thanks!

So, in other words, icon veneration is merely honoring something with a device? I'm not sure what need there is for that, but it does not seem very offensive on the face of it. What I would have a problem with is praying through an object. The quote you gave is certainly not that.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Icon veneration did not become a debate until the 7th century. And it's not like someone just up and decided to start venerating icons. The Church in the East was under pressure from the spread of Islam and held the iconoclast Synod to end the practice. You cannot end something unless it has already begun.

You are correct. What seems to happen is that an idea develops over time and pretty soon the original idea is lost.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I will be sure to look into this, thanks!

So, in other words, icon veneration is merely honoring something with a device? I'm not sure what need there is for that, but it does not seem very offensive on the face of it. What I would have a problem with is praying through an object. The quote you gave is certainly not that.

yes, veneration means to honor. and while you might not see a need for it, God certainly did when He instructed Moses to construct images, which Christ Himself did while on earth in the Temple and Tabernacle.

as far as your issue, it depends on what you mean by praying through an object. because if I ask you to pray for me over a phone, I am praying to you (that’s what praying is, it’s petitioning someone) through the object of the physical phone.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

as far as your issue, it depends on what you mean by praying through an object. because if I ask you to pray for me over a phone, I am praying to you (that’s what praying is, it’s petitioning someone) through the object of the physical phone.

Right, but a phone is not necessary to pray for anyone. And I do not pray to anyone but God, but that will be a disagreement between Orthodox and Protestants.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Right, but a phone is not necessary to pray for anyone. And I do not pray to anyone but God, but that will be a disagreement between Orthodox and Protestants.

you don’t ask anyone to pray for you?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

you don’t ask anyone to pray for you?

I do ask people to pray to God for me. But I do not communicate with the dead.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I do ask people to pray to God for me. But I do not communicate with the dead.

the saints aren’t dead, they are alive in Christ (according to Christ)

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

the saints aren’t dead, they are alive in Christ (according to Christ)

Sure. But then no one is dead.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Sure. But then no one is dead.

so you can ask saints to pray for you, since they are alive in Christ.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

so you can ask saints to pray for you, since they are alive in Christ.

They are dead though. And the Bible forbids talking with the dead (known as necromancy). There is an example of talking with the dead in the Bible and it is not a favorable one.

 

[ArmyMatt]

They are dead though. And the Bible forbids talking with the dead (known as necromancy). There is an example of talking with the dead in the Bible and it is not a favorable one.

according to Christ, they are alive. but if you want to go that route, both Christ and Elijah spoke with Moses (who had departed this life) at the Transfiguration. if asking the saints for prayers is as forbidden, why did Christ do it with Moses in the presence of His Apostles?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

according to Christ, they are alive. but if you want to go that route, both Christ and Elijah spoke with Moses (who had departed this life) at the Transfiguration. if asking the saints for prayers is as forbidden, why did Christ do it with Moses in the presence of His Apostles?

Christ does things/is things we cannot do/aren't. Christ said he has seen the Father as well. Certainly, you would not say anyone besides Christ has seen the Father, correct? Christ's eyes were open completely to the spiritual world in a way we cannot do.

No one is saying that dead people do not exist in the spirit world. But talking with the dead, meaning having conversations with them, is condemned in the Bible in both the OT and the NT. This does not apply to Christ as he is the Lord of all creation. If Christ can break the Sabbath, as He is Lord of the Sabbath, then this tells us He is not limited by mere human morality because He supersedes morality itself. He created morality and is not subject to it.

As far as "Why did Christ do it?" I do not know. Nor do I know why He broke the Sabbath.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

“Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection in our soul.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria 39th Question to Antiochos, Patrologia Graeca

Hey, I cannot find this quote in my Bible software. Do you have a link?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Christ does things/is things we cannot do/aren't. Christ said he has seen the Father as well. Certainly, you would not say anyone besides Christ has seen the Father, correct? Christ's eyes were open completely to the spiritual world in a way we cannot do.

No one is saying that dead people do not exist in the spirit world. But talking with the dead, meaning having conversations with them, is condemned in the Bible in both the OT and the NT. This does not apply to Christ as he is the Lord of all creation. If Christ can break the Sabbath, as He is Lord of the Sabbath, then this tells us He is not limited by mere human morality because He supersedes morality itself. He created morality and is not subject to it.

As far as "Why did Christ do it?" I do not know. Nor do I know why He broke the Sabbath.

except Christ perfectly follows the Law. He didn’t break the Sabbath. He broke what the current powers that be assumed about the Sabbath. after giving the Law, God commanded Joshua to lead the people to march around Jericho for 7 days. one of those days would have been a Sabbath day.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Hey, I cannot find this quote in my Bible software. Do you have a link?

look up the Patrologia Graeca. it’s a massive volume of Greek patristic works (like the NPNF)

 

[prodromos]

They are dead though. And the Bible forbids talking with the dead (known as necromancy). There is an example of talking with the dead in the Bible and it is not a favorable one.

Necromancy is trying to divine the future or to learn secret information through communication with the dead. It involves getting the dead to talk to you. Asking the departed Saints to pray to God on our behalf is not necromancy in any way, shape or form. We are not seeking a two way conversation, we are not trying to learn the future and we are not trying to gain secret knowledge. We are simply asking close friends of our Lord and Saviour to talk to God on our behalf. When we speak to them, we have no expectation that they will speak back to us.

 

[ArmyMatt]

When we speak to them, we have no expectation that they will speak back to us.

and what they hear or act on is only by God’s will and power.