On Icon Veneration (and other topics)

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,477
847
Midwest
✟163,149.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
look up the Patrologia Graeca. it’s a massive volume of Greek patristic works (like the NPNF)
Patrologia Graeca is a whopping 161 volumes long. Now, you do cite it as being a work by Athanasius of Alexandria, so that does narrow it down quite a bit, but he wrote so much that there's still four whole volumes devoted just to him (volumes 25-28), and then each volume is hundreds of pages. Could you narrow things down a bit more, like saying which volume and which page it can be found on?
 
Upvote 0

Lukaris

Orthodox Christian
Site Supporter
Aug 3, 2007
7,919
2,568
Pennsylvania, USA
✟761,637.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,609
20,179
41
Earth
✟1,475,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Patrologia Graeca is a whopping 161 volumes long. Now, you do cite it as being a work by Athanasius of Alexandria, so that does narrow it down quite a bit, but he wrote so much that there's still four whole volumes devoted just to him (volumes 25-28), and then each volume is hundreds of pages. Could you narrow things down a bit more, like saying which volume and which page it can be found on?
I did post more on my first reference to the PG
 
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,477
847
Midwest
✟163,149.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I did post more on my first reference to the PG
True, your original post was this:

“Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection in our soul.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria 39th Question to Antiochos, Patrologia Graeca
But that doesn't tell me what volume of Patrologia Graeca it's in or what page. To find it based on that, one has to open up all of the volumes that have Athanasius's writings and scan through the table of contents of each one until you find something that looks similar (remember, the table of contents are in Latin, not English, so one can't just look for the same name, but look for Latin with the same meaning).

However, as it turns out, the citation you are referring to is not actually from one of the Athanasius volumes. I did a search for your quote to see if maybe someone else had posted it, as I suspected you had copied it from someplace else. Which seems to have been the case, as I did find it at a few places, like https://classicalchristianity.com/2012/10/26/st-athanasius-on-icons/ which told me "39th Question to Antiochos, PG 94.1365".

So it tells us, helpfully, that it's in volume 94, column 1365. Anyone can look at it for themselves at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. Note that the way it works is you have the Greek original and Latin translation parallel, which is good for me because I know basically no Greek but do know a little Latin. But we observe something odd here: That volume has works of John Damascus. So what gives? Well, what's happening is that John is offering a quote from Athanasius, attributing it to the source given, though Damascus actually writes it's the 38th Question (it's mentioned in a footnote that it's actually the 39th question in the text we have).

However, here is where we run into big problems with the quotation. Migne--the compiler of Patrologia Graeca--says something very critical in the footnote that seems to have been missed by whoever was the original source for this citation. Migne says, based on the usage of "Ubi proinde signficatur quaestiones istas non esse inagni Athanasii, sed recentioris, qui sane vixit saeculo VIII, vel octavo" which roughly means "Hence it is signified these questions are not those of Athanasius, but of someone more recent, from the eighth century". In other words, this is not an actual quote of Athanasius, but someone else entirely centuries later that John of Damascus seems to have incorrectly thought was Athanasius. Indeed, if we look into the volumes earlier, the work being quoted is in Volume 28 (one can see the applicable portion of the work at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive), but the work in question listed under "Spuria", meaning Spurious, a term used to refer to works that have been attributed to a particular author but were not their work. In other words, it is not regarded as actually being written by Athanasius of the fourth century.

To be fair, Patrologia Graeca was published in the mid 19th century, and as scholarship has improved, some works previously thought spurious are now thought to be true, and vice versa. So perhaps, while Migne regarded it as spurious, things have changed. But unless scholarship can be demonstrated to have changed in the meantime, it appears that this quote is not from Athanasius at all--and certainly, the source identified as evidence (Patrologia Graeca) denies it was him.

So this one seems a false quote.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zippy2006

JSRG

Well-Known Member
Apr 14, 2019
1,477
847
Midwest
✟163,149.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Hello!

I am sure that the EO group has familiarity of this topic so I am wondering if someone can explain.

But my view can be seen in this video. The idea is that icon veneration (worshipping through the icon) is exactly what the pagans taught and as such was condemned unanimously by the early church.


I look forward to a fruitful discussion!
There have been multiple response videos to the video you post, have you looked at them? If you want responses to the video, you might be better served by looking at the responses that do exist than coming to a forum and asking people to watch the video and then write up their own new responses.

Of course, just saying "look for responses!" is not that useful without giving some, so I'll list three that seem particularly notable to me.

Now, most of the responses I'm aware of (the direct ones, anyway) to the video you post are from Catholics, so I should definitely make sure to include an Eastern Orthodox response given this is the Eastern Orthodox subforum. Here's one from Craig Truglia:

The second video I note because it is the response that I think has the most views, which is from Trent Horn and Jimmy Akin, who are Catholic:
This one does include a full transcript at Gavin Ortlund on Icons (REBUTTED) for those who prefer to read instead of watching.

The last one is Suan Sonna, another Catholic, which I mention because it looks to be the most in-depth response, at least in terms of length:
This one is admittedly extraordinarily long (over four hours), but its three major parts have been divided up into three different videos. As your main interest appears to be the claim the early church condemned icons, the second video is the one that would probably be most relevant to you (the first is about the theological question of doctrinal development). Also, he did include a link to his Powerpoint slides, so if you want a quicker summary, you can look at those, though obviously it would be less in depth than the actual presentation.

Obviously, as is the case for any responses to any particular argument, you'll find some disagreement among the responses due to the different perspectives the responders come from (e.g. I know Craig Truglia was fairly critical of Trent Horn/Jimmy Akin's response). Still, if you're wondering what answers people have provided, those are some possible things to check out.
 
Last edited:
  • Useful
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,609
20,179
41
Earth
✟1,475,569.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
True, your original post was this:


But that doesn't tell me what volume of Patrologia Graeca it's in or what page. To find it based on that, one has to open up all of the volumes that have Athanasius's writings and scan through the table of contents of each one until you find something that looks similar (remember, the table of contents are in Latin, not English, so one can't just look for the same name, but look for Latin with the same meaning).

However, as it turns out, the citation you are referring to is not actually from one of the Athanasius volumes. I did a search for your quote to see if maybe someone else had posted it, as I suspected you had copied it from someplace else. Which seems to have been the case, as I did find it at a few places, like https://classicalchristianity.com/2012/10/26/st-athanasius-on-icons/ which told me "39th Question to Antiochos, PG 94.1365".

So it tells us, helpfully, that it's in volume 94, column 1365. Anyone can look at it for themselves at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive. Note that the way it works is you have the Greek original and Latin translation parallel, which is good for me because I know basically no Greek but do know a little Latin. But we observe something odd here: That volume has works of John Damascus. So what gives? Well, what's happening is that John is offering a quote from Athanasius, attributing it to the source given, though Damascus actually writes it's the 38th Question (it's mentioned in a footnote that it's actually the 39th question in the text we have).

However, here is where we run into big problems with the quotation. Migne--the compiler of Patrologia Graeca--says something very critical in the footnote that seems to have been missed by whoever was the original source for this citation. Migne says, based on the usage of "Ubi proinde signficatur quaestiones istas non esse inagni Athanasii, sed recentioris, qui sane vixit saeculo VIII, vel octavo" which roughly means "Hence it is signified these questions are not those of Athanasius, but of someone more recent, from the eighth century". In other words, this is not an actual quote of Athanasius, but someone else entirely centuries later that John of Damascus seems to have incorrectly thought was Athanasius. Indeed, if we look into the volumes earlier, the work being quoted is in Volume 28 (one can see the applicable portion of the work at Patrologiae cursus completus ; omnium SS patrum, doctorum scriptorumque ecclesiasticorum : Migne, J.-P. (Jacques-Paul), 1800-1875 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive), but the work in question listed under "Spuria", meaning Spurious, a term used to refer to works that have been attributed to a particular author but were not their work. In other words, it is not regarded as actually being written by Athanasius of the fourth century.

To be fair, Patrologia Graeca was published in the mid 19th century, and as scholarship has improved, some works previously thought spurious are now thought to be true, and vice versa. So perhaps, while Migne regarded it as spurious, things have changed. But unless scholarship can be demonstrated to have changed in the meantime, it appears that this quote is not from Athanasius at all--and certainly, the source identified as evidence (Patrologia Graeca) denies it was him.

So this one seems a false quote.
well, if you want to look at it isolated from what the Church was doing. we still have very early icons from before Athanasius, which supports the quote even if you want to say it’s inaccurate.

also, a lot of those guys had biases (like Schaff) which colored their commentary on what they translated.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity

Can't stand that guy. Totally hypocritical. He says Gavin is being uncharitable, but his entire tone is the attitude that he can't be wrong.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,675
12,210
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,190,284.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Can't stand that guy. Totally hypocritical. He says Gavin is being uncharitable, but his entire tone is the attitude that he can't be wrong.
Huh?
There is something seriously wrong if that is all you got out of it?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
Huh?
There is something seriously wrong if that is all you got out of it?

Someone who has an axe to grind with someone usually isn't telling the truth about them. Sorry, just how I see it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,675
12,210
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,190,284.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Someone who has an axe to grind with someone usually isn't telling the truth about them. Sorry, just how I see it.
What "axe" does he have to grind with him?
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Jesse Dornfeld

Slave to Christ
Site Supporter
Oct 11, 2020
3,345
1,109
37
Twin Cities
Visit site
✟177,553.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Celibate
Politics
US-American-Solidarity
What "axe" does he have to grind with him?

It's easy to see in the way he talks about Gavin, who is honestly one of the most charitable apologetics person on YouTube IMO.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,675
12,210
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,190,284.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It's easy to see in the way he talks about Gavin, who is honestly one of the most charitable apologetics person on YouTube IMO.
Gavin may come across as very charitable, but it means nothing if he misrepresents your arguments, and if your methodology is wrong, as Craig clearly demonstrates it is, it doesn't matter how nicely you present your conclusions, you are still wrong.
 
Upvote 0

prodromos

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Nov 28, 2003
21,675
12,210
58
Sydney, Straya
✟1,190,284.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
See also Seraphim Hamilton's videos, the first of which is as follows:

That was excellent! I'm looking forward to watching the rest of the series.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Dec 16, 2011
5,208
2,548
57
Home
Visit site
✟234,967.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Allow me to clarify some things.

I am not arguing here about relics. Nor am I denying that miracles are done through such things. That is not what the debate is about. The debate is about worshipping through the icon. It is about the idea of veneration wherefor the icon is used as a means of worship through the object. So I am not claiming that Orthodox folks worship the icons themselves. I am arguing that what the Orthodox folks believe they are doing with these icons is synonymous with what the pagans did with their idols which was unanimously rejected by the ECF until the 7th century.
Yeah, but nobody but the Holy Trinity is ever worshipped in the Church. God's saints reflect God's glory. That is a Biblical fact and truth. So even the proper veneration of a saint is worship being directed to the Only Good God whose goodness is manifested ("wonderful") in His saints "God is wonderful in His saints:" (Psalm 67:36)

Pagans worshipped false gods (idols) because they chose to be like brute beasts, following wherever their lusts would lead them. They included sexual acts and orgies as part of their worship, along with drinking each other's blood and whatnot, and sometimes even sacrificing their own children as burnt offerings. Please don't encourage anyone to be ignorant enough to make Orthodox Christianity equal to the sin of paganism. That would be the sin of bearing false witness, because we do not worship idols and are not pagans. Our faith has always informed us to struggle against the sinful passions, not to indulge them ritually. Orthodoxy is the holiest of all walks with regards to the struggling against ones sins.
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0