On Icon Veneration (and other topics)

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Hello!

I am sure that the EO group has familiarity of this topic so I am wondering if someone can explain.

But my view can be seen in this video. The idea is that icon veneration (worshipping through the icon) is exactly what the pagans taught and as such was condemned unanimously by the early church.

I look forward to a fruitful discussion!

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Oh, another thing is that I have actually seen someone who is EO say explicitly that there is nothing wrong (and is good) in worshiping Mary, but this was distinguished from serving only God. So it seems to me that things keep progressing. It used to be that no one used icon worship. Then there was. Now people are saying (in the EO church) that worshipping Mary (who is not God) is acceptable. That last part seems straight-up idolatrous to me. IDK how to justify that.

 

[HTacianas]

Hello!

I am sure that the EO group has familiarity of this topic so I am wondering if someone can explain.

But my view can be seen in this video. The idea is that icon veneration (worshipping through the icon) is exactly what the pagans taught and as such was condemned unanimously by the early church.

I look forward to a fruitful discussion!

First, no one worships icons. Second, no one worships Mary. That's why we have the term veneration. To venerate some thing or some one is to pay respect. It is no different from standing up when a judge walks into a courtroom. That can rightly be termed veneration. The righteous saints stand now in the presence of God, and during the Liturgy we pray for their intercession. As to icons and holy objects, even the old testament is filled with objects and images considered holy. Holy objects in the new testament began with the possessions of Paul the Apostle that God performed miracles through. God can also perform miracles through the relics of the Saints as well as our icons.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

First, no one worships icons. Second, no one worships Mary. That's why we have the term veneration. To venerate some thing or some one is to pay respect. It is no different from standing up when a judge walks into a courtroom. That can rightly be termed veneration. The righteous saints stand now in the presence of God, and during the Liturgy we pray for their intercession. As to icons and holy objects, even the old testament is filled with objects and images considered holy. Holy objects in the new testament began with the possessions of Paul the Apostle that God performed miracles through. God can also perform miracles through the relics of the Saints as well as our icons.

Allow me to clarify some things.

I am not arguing here about relics. Nor am I denying that miracles are done through such things. That is not what the debate is about. The debate is about worshipping through the icon. It is about the idea of veneration wherefor the icon is used as a means of worship through the object. So I am not claiming that Orthodox folks worship the icons themselves. I am arguing that what the Orthodox folks believe they are doing with these icons is synonymous with what the pagans did with their idols which was unanimously rejected by the ECF until the 7th century.

 

[Chesterton]

Hello!

Hello!

The idea is that icon veneration (worshipping through the icon) is exactly what the pagans taught and as such was condemned unanimously by the early church.

My apologies, but I don't have time to watch that video. Iconography was not condemned by the early church. Iconoclasm did not become a thing until the 8th century, and was influenced to a large degree by the new religion of Islam.

 

[HTacianas]

Allow me to clarify some things.

I am not arguing here about relics. Nor am I denying that miracles are done through such things. That is not what the debate is about. The debate is about worshipping through the icon. It is about the idea of veneration wherefor the icon is used as a means of worship through the object. So I am not claiming that Orthodox folks worship the icons themselves. I am arguing that what the Orthodox folks believe they are doing with these icons is synonymous with what the pagans did with their idols which was unanimously rejected by the ECF until the 7th century.

Veneration of icons is not what was objected to in the early Church. It was worship of the object itself as an idol, or the veneration of an image of a false god. That is what the prohibition against idols in the ten commandments is for. One cannot create their own god the way Aaron did with the golden calf. Neither can a person venerate an image of some other god. To worship the object itself or to venerate the image are both idolatry. In the Roman Empire Christians were once required to renounce their faith by worshipping either the Emperor or his image. Christians were put to death for refusing to do it, or condemned if they did.

Jhn 12:25 “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 14:10 “he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

The matter of icons was permanently resolved by the Second Council of Nicaea, and was resolved by the authority of Jesus Christ when he said to his Apostles:

Mat 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Hello!

My apologies, but I don't have time to watch that video. Iconography was not condemned by the early church. Iconoclasm did not become a thing until the 8th century, and was influenced to a large degree by the new religion of Islam.

That is demonstrably false (as per the video). Many examples were given of this.

Veneration of icons is not what was objected to in the early Church. It was worship of the object itself as an idol, or the veneration of an image of a false god. That is what the prohibition against idols in the ten commandments is for. One cannot create their own god the way Aaron did with the golden calf. Neither can a person venerate an image of some other god. To worship the object itself or to venerate the image are both idolatry. In the Roman Empire Christians were once required to renounce their faith by worshipping either the Emperor or his image. Christians were put to death for refusing to do it, or condemned if they did.

Jhn 12:25 “He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

Rev 14:9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,

Rev 14:10 “he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation.

The matter of icons was permanently resolved by the Second Council of Nicaea, and was resolved by the authority of Jesus Christ when he said to his Apostles:

Mat 18:19 “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I would encourage you to watch the video so you have a better view of the issue I am forwarding. And I can find more videos/resources that say more of the same--that what the Orthodox and Catholic churches do with icons was nowhere in the early church until the 7th century. In short, icon veneration is an accretion in the church. I believe the church can err and I think church history demonstrates this clearly. So I do not have a blind faith that the church cannot err as many Orthodox and Catholics have.

 

[HTacianas]

That is demonstrably false (as per the video). Many examples were given of this.



I would encourage you to watch the video so you have a better view of the issue I am forwarding. And I can find more videos/resources that say more of the same--that what the Orthodox and Catholic churches do with icons was nowhere in the early church until the 7th century. In short, icon veneration is an accretion in the church. I believe the church can err and I think church history demonstrates this clearly. So I do not have a blind faith that the church cannot err as many Orthodox and Catholics have.

As I said before, the Second Council of Nicaea resolved the matter under the authority of Jesus Christ. Now, I did not watch the video, only the first few seconds of it. And it's a bit like someone telling me to leave a public place. If someone tells me to leave a public place the first question I have for them is what or who gave them the authority to tell me to leave. If they do not possess that authority I don't listen to them. I would ask the creator of the video the same question. And I happen to know that he does not have the authority to make decisions for the Church or for Christianity. He does not have that authority because no one has given him that authority. It's as easy as that. While he is certainly welcome to believe anything he sees fit, he cannot make determinations for anyone else.

And I'll tell you something. No one ever wakes up in the morning and decides to become a heretic. They honestly believe what they are saying. Just like the guy that made that video.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

the Second Council of Nicaea resolved the matter under the authority of Jesus Christ.

I was not aware Jesus Christ was at the second council of Nicea. You can claim that it was the church, but when I say it is unanimous in the ECF condemned the icon veneration of the pagans which is done in the same way as the Catholic and Orthodox churches, that's not a matter of authority. That's a truth claim. The claim can be true or false, but what it cannot be is a matter of opinion. The scholarship is clear. It's not just Gavin making this argument but he sits on a whole bunch of scholarship.

This is what I am talking about when I say the apostolic traditions have a blind faith in their tradition. It is not based on evidence, but based on, as you say, who you think has authority and the truth of the matter is only secondary to the issue.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh, another thing is that I have actually seen someone who is EO say explicitly that there is nothing wrong (and is good) in worshiping Mary, but this was distinguished from serving only God. So it seems to me that things keep progressing. It used to be that no one used icon worship. Then there was. Now people are saying (in the EO church) that worshipping Mary (who is not God) is acceptable. That last part seems straight-up idolatrous to me. IDK how to justify that.

we don’t worship Mary. that person is either wrong or misspoke.

 

[HTacianas]

I was not aware Jesus Christ was at the second council of Nicea. You can claim that it was the church, but when I say it is unanimous in the ECF condemned the icon veneration of the pagans which is done in the same way as the Catholic and Orthodox churches, that's not a matter of authority. That's a truth claim. The claim can be true or false, but what it cannot be is a matter of opinion. The scholarship is clear. It's not just Gavin making this argument but he sits on a whole bunch of scholarship.

This is what I am talking about when I say the apostolic traditions have a blind faith in their tradition. It is not based on evidence, but based on, as you say, who you think has authority and the truth of the matter is only secondary to the issue.

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Mat 18:20 “For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

I do not deny any scripture. What I would contend is what does this mean? Does that hold for Protestants as well? What about if you have 2 people who believe one thing in the Lord's name and 2 saying the opposite in the Lord's name? It is not necessary that if two people agree that it is true. That would boil down to pluralism in the case of the church.

 

[Chesterton]

That is demonstrably false (as per the video). Many examples were given of this.

As I said, I don't have time for a 1:15 video, and I guess you don't have time to summarize the examples. We both must be living busy lives, which is a good thing I suppose.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

As I said, I don't have time for a 1:15 video, and I guess you don't have time to summarize the examples. We both must be living busy lives, which is a good thing I suppose.

I do not need specific examples when it was unanimous until the 7th century.

 

[ArmyMatt]

sorry, I can’t listen to that whole video. icon veneration is in the Old Testament (with how the images in the Tabernacle and Temple were treated).

 

[HTacianas]

I do not deny any scripture. What I would contend is what does this mean? Does that hold for Protestants as well? What about if you have 2 people who believe one thing in the Lord's name and 2 saying the opposite in the Lord's name? It is not necessary that if two people agree that it is true. That would boil down to pluralism in the case of the church.

The meaning of it is an old Hebrewism. And it applies to the Apostles, not just anyone else. Note that Jesus says "two or more agree" and then says "where two or three gather". It means "two out of three", a majority vote of the Apostles. The Apostles handed down their authority to their successors. Their successors were the Bishops of the Councils. And two out of three of them agreed. It was done in heaven just as it was done on Earth.

Now, I've been watching the video you posted. The guy in the video, for all of his education, makes a glaring mistake when discussing the Church Fathers. The images the Church Fathers condemned were images of pagan gods. The Church Fathers unanimously condemned all pagan gods along with their images, and all of their commentaries were directed at those gods and images. The creator of the video is making a rookie mistake. He reached a conclusion and then went looking for evidence in support of it. His own confirmation bias dictates to him that the early Fathers condemned Christian icons when in fact very few Christian icons existed at the time.

If you look at the video where he discusses Octavius by Minucius Felix you'll see that the antagonist in the dialogue says that Christians keep secret their form of worship. That has nothing to do with images or icons. Christians kept their worship secret both to hide from the authorities and also to keep the un-baptized away from the Eucharist. As Jesus said and the Didache repeated regarding the Eucharist, "do not give what is holy to the dogs".

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

sorry, I can’t listen to that whole video. icon veneration is in the Old Testament (with how the images in the Tabernacle and Temple were treated).

Was that really icon veneration though? Talk of icons and images is not synonymous with worshipping though them. Nor is it clear that this is how the early church interpreted it (they didn't view it that way at all, in fact).

The meaning of it is an old Hebrewism. And it applies to the Apostles, not just anyone else. Note that Jesus says "two or more agree" and then says "where two or three gather". It means "two out of three", a majority vote of the Apostles. The Apostles handed down their authority to their successors. Their successors were the Bishops of the Councils. And two out of three of them agreed. It was done in heaven just as it was done on Earth.

Now, I've been watching the video you posted. The guy in the video, for all of his education, makes a glaring mistake when discussing the Church Fathers. The images the Church Fathers condemned were images of pagan gods. The Church Fathers unanimously condemned all pagan gods along with their images, and all of their commentaries were directed at those gods and images. The creator of the video is making a rookie mistake. He reached a conclusion and then went looking for evidence in support of it. His own confirmation bias dictates to him that the early Fathers condemned Christian icons when in fact very few Christian icons existed at the time.

If you look at the video where he discusses Octavius by Minucius Felix you'll see that the antagonist in the dialogue says that Christians keep secret their form of worship. That has nothing to do with images or icons. Christians kept their worship secret both to hide from the authorities and also to keep the un-baptized away from the Eucharist. As Jesus said and the Didache repeated regarding the Eucharist, "do not give what is holy to the dogs".

When he quotes non-Protestant consensus on the matter of icon veneration from church history, he is not misrepresenting anyone. That is why the sticking point is that icon veneration (not just Christian use of art) was not a matter of debate until the 7th century. If you can give me a quote from an ECF about icon VENERATION prior to the 7th century, I'd be please to look at the context.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Was that really icon veneration though? Talk of icons and images is not synonymous with worshipping though them. Nor is it clear that this is how the early church interpreted it (they didn't view it that way at all, in fact).

yes it was. we’re not talking about talking about icons and images, but how they were treated. just because the method of veneration changed because of the Incarnation, that doesn’t mean THAT veneration was new.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

yes it was. we’re not talking about talking about icons and images, but how they were treated. just because the method of veneration changed because of the Incarnation, that doesn’t mean THAT veneration was new.

I invite you or any other Orthodox person to give me a quote from any ECF that made the affirmative stance of icon veneration prior to the 7th century.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I invite you or any other Orthodox person to give me a quote from any ECF that made the affirmative stance of icon veneration prior to the 7th century.

“Just as Jacob, when dying, bowed in worship over the head of the staff of Joseph not honoring the staff, but him to whom it belonged, in the same manner the faithful, for no other reason, venerate the icons, just as we often kiss our children, so that we may plainly express the affection in our soul.” -St Athanasius of Alexandria 39th Question to Antiochos, Patrologia Graeca