No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?

[gmm4j]

If election were based only upon God’s unconditional choice of those He wanted to save, Scripture is clear that He would choose to save everyone.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasurein the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then under the Calvinist construct, God would have elected all the wicked to eternal life so they would not die. Since He does not do this, election or being chosen, must be based on something more than just His unconditional good pleasure.

Scripture teaches that God has chosen according to His good pleasure to base election on the individual turning to Him in faith. Thus, He pleads for them to turn. He would receive the most pleasure, if all wicked men would voluntarily turn to Him in faith.

And, if God would rather they turn from their ways and live, and under the Calvinist construct man cannot turn himself, then it would be up to God to turn them and no pleading would be necessary.

Ezekiel 18 and 33 reveal God’s position on the death of the wicked, and His desire for all the wicked to turn and be saved. He pleads for it. This is His will. He would not plead for something contrary to His will!

Ezekiel 18 and 33 also reveal the ability of man. God would never plead with wicked men to do something they cannot do. If He tells men to turn when they cannot, He is a very cruel taunt. However, this is not the case. Instead, God has graciously given unregenerate man the ability to turn to Him, and He pleads with them to do so.

And, Ezekiel 18 and 33 reveal that God is not the direct causative effect upon a man to make him turn. God would not need to tell man to turn, if He were the direct cause of their turning. Neither would He be displeased over their death, if it were soley up to Him (monergism) to turn them or not.

 

[gmm4j]

OP anyone?

 

[gmm4j]

No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?
If election were based only upon God’s unconditional choice of those He wanted to save, Scripture is clear that He would choose to save everyone.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasurein the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, then under the Calvinist construct, God would have elected all the wicked to eternal life so they would not die. Since He does not do this, election or being chosen, must be based on something more than just His unconditional good pleasure.

Scripture teaches that God has chosen according to His good pleasure to base election on the individual turning to Him in faith. Thus, He pleads for them to turn. He would receive the most pleasure, if all wicked men would voluntarily turn to Him in faith.

And, if God would rather they turn from their ways and live, and under the Calvinist construct man cannot turn himself, then it would be up to God to turn them and no pleading would be necessary.

Ezekiel 18 and 33 reveal God’s position on the death of the wicked, and His desire for all the wicked to turn and be saved. He pleads for it. This is His will. He would not plead for something contrary to His will!

Ezekiel 18 and 33 also reveal the ability of man. God would never plead with wicked men to do something they cannot do. If He tells men to turn when they cannot, He is a very cruel taunt. However, this is not the case. Instead, God has graciously given unregenerate man the ability to turn to Him, and He pleads with them to do so.

And, Ezekiel 18 and 33 reveal that God is not the direct causative effect upon a man to make him turn. God would not need to tell man to turn, if He were the direct cause of their turning. Neither would He be displeased over their death, if it were soley up to Him (monergism) to turn them or not.

 

[ronathanedwards]

You might want to understand the passage first before you parrot someone...

God Refutes a False Proverb: Ezekiel 18

 

[SolaOne]

Are you parroting James White?

 

[ronathanedwards]

I am USING James White. There is a difference. I don't accept a teacher and blindly adhere to what he says and then say what he says. OR I didn't grow up under him or that type of doctrine in the culture I was in and just accept it without examination to see if it is actually true or not. THAT is what theologians call "tradition". The role of a good theologian is to painstakingly be aware of and examine one's traditions, in fact, one tries to invalidate one's traditions to see if they are valid or not.
Unfortunately, most people are very uncomfortable and threatened when one even thinks of questioning his core doctrines. That is sad.

But when I have teaching that I can use that I agree with and I believe is validated to my scrutiny, I will save time by cut and paste or linking instead of wasting time typing out the same information.

 

[sdowney717]

No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?
If election were based only upon God’s unconditional choice of those He wanted to save, Scripture is clear that He would choose to save everyone.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasurein the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

This passage is addressed to who??

29 Yet saith the house of Israel, The way of the Lord is not equal. O house of Israel, are not my ways equal? are not your ways unequal?

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

It is addressed to ISRAEL, not all the nations of men.
Israel was under covenant with God, the world was not under covenant with God.

You can not apply this to men of nations outside of Israel of that time, or even today, as the old covenant has been enfolded into the greater and better new covenant.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

If God would rather they turn from their ways and live, and under the Calvinist construct man cannot turn himself, then it would be up to God to turn them and no pleading would be necessary.

 

[Skala]

If God would rather they turn from their ways and live, and under the Calvinist construct man cannot turn himself, then it would be up to God to turn them and no pleading would be necessary.

You mean under Jesus' construct:

Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father John 6:65

That darn Jesus and his silly teachings.

 

[stenerson]

If God would rather they turn from their ways and live, and under the Calvinist construct man cannot turn himself, then it would be up to God to turn them and no pleading would be necessary.

Under Calvinist construct? You haven't heard? Mankind has fallen. There is none righteous, not one that seeks after God, etc no not one. Was Calvin around when this was written? Fortunately God did boast that He would do a great work:
"…26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

"I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD"

"I will be sought of them that did not seek me."

Obviously the gentile world (which for millennia did not care about or seek God) suddenly came to their senses. :o

The poor, frustrated, lonely Arminian god is wringing his hands and waiting for a willing, believing people.

 

[Skala]

Under Calvinist construct? You haven't heard? Mankind has fallen. There is none righteous, not one that seeks after God, etc no not one. Was Calvin around when this was written?

These days, when you teach Bible truth, you are accused of "Calvinism"

Sounds good to me

 

[stenerson]

These days, when you teach Bible truth, you are accused of "Calvinism"

Sounds good to me

"…26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

Arminian paraphrased bible: "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh if you soften your heart of stone. "

Bible: "I will be sought of them that did not seek me."

Arminian paraphrased bible: "I will be sought of them that did not seek me, if they will stop being so hard headed and start seeking me. "

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Under Calvinist construct? You haven't heard? Mankind has fallen. There is none righteous, not one that seeks after God, etc no not one. Was Calvin around when this was written?

"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

"I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD"

"I will be sought of them that did not seek me."

Obviously the gentile world (which for millennia did not care about or seek God) suddenly came to their senses. :o

The poor, frustrated, lonely Arminian god is wringing his hands and waiting for a willing, believing people.

STENERSON is that a profile picture of you?

Under a Calvinistic construct do you think God takes pleasure in the wicked perishing?

None seek God? Do you seek Him? No?

Look at what comes first. You left off v25.
Ezek 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you

Can you be made righteous apart from faith??? Faith comes before getting a new heart. Faith comes by revelation, not by regeneration.

Rom 10:20-21

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

21 But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people."


Really? Was He really reaching out to Israel?

And, if I were you, I would be careful about calling God poor, frustrated and lonely.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

"…26"Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances."

Arminian paraphrased bible: "I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh if you soften your heart of stone. "

Bible: "I will be sought of them that did not seek me."

Arminian paraphrased bible: "I will be sought of them that did not seek me, if they will stop being so hard headed and start seeking me. "

Calvinism truncating the text by leaving off v25 were being made clean comes prior to receiving a new heart. And, of course we know righteousness is by faith. Faith first!

And again leaving off how they find Him... Rom 10:20
"I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

They find Him because of revelation, not regeneration.

 

[stenerson]

STENERSON is that a profile picture of you?

Under a Calvinistic construct do you think God takes pleasure in the wicked perishing?

None seek God? Do you seek Him? No?

Look at what comes first. You left off v25.
Ezek 36:25-27
I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you

Can you be made righteous apart from faith??? Faith comes before getting a new heart. Faith comes by revelation, not by regeneration.

Rom 10:20-21

"I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

21 But concerning Israel he says,

"All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people."

And, if I were you, I would be careful about calling God poor, frustrated and lonely.

I'm confused. Sounds like you're defending the Calvinist position.
I quoted Old Testament prophecies concerning a work that God will do (in future) among the gentiles. A work which He wasn't doing at that time among the gentiles. And You helped my case by showing the method that God will do this great work. "I WILL" reveal, cleanse etc.
He also prophesied to these stubborn stiffneck people (Israel) that He would Himself do a work among them which would then cause them to turn to Him. Obviously this wasn't a work which He was choosing to do among them at that time.
Maybe you're starting to get it..
And no I'm not calling the God of scripture poor, frustrated and lonely.
I was calling the god (little g) of Arminianism poor, frustrated and lonely.
I mean, try to put your traditions aside and think clearly for a moment.
What's the reason God was saying that in the future things would change? Innumerable multitudes would be saved and start coming to faith. God boasts about a work that He will do that will bring people to faith. In some instances speaking of the then Pagan/Heathen/Reprobate masses of humanity, and in some cases speaking of the stiff-necked Jews.
Are you suggesting that the reason God wasn't doing that great work in the past was a lack of people willing to show faith? And you think God was simply predicting that in the future things would bode better for Him, because by some luck of the draw Gentiles and Jews would start exercising their inherent ability to trust in God?

 

[stenerson]

I also believe that part of the problem is the Arminians don't always distinguish clearly between law and gospel. In Adam humanity has fallen in rebellion and enmity with God.
God never stopped demanding faith, obedience from humanity, and also from His chosen nation Israel. He wasn't at fault for man's rebellion and He could still demand that they repent, come to Him for mercy, etc. He could still be angry with humanity in a sense, still have them under His wrath even though they can't be any other than what they are. God haters.
But even in the midst of this relationship God makes promises and boasts of saving work which will bring many into His fold. We saw this grace with a few token people for most of human history. Noah, Abraham and His clan, then a remnant Israel.
God has kept His promises and extended this gracious saving work to countless gentiles from every continent.
When ever I discuss for example the doctrine of Justification by Faith alone with cultists like SDA or JW, Mormons they quote the imperative, demands of God as proof that we are to be saved by a combination of faith and work.
Their reasoning, if God demands something, if He says do this and live, or believe on Me, etc. then that presupposes we have the ability within us.
I'm not calling you a cultists, just saying you're using the same reasoning in this case.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

Faith comes by revelation, not by regeneration.

 

[gmm4Jesus]

We do have the ability to believe, it is the will that needs to be overcome.

1 Cor 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

 

[stenerson]

We do have the ability to believe, it is the will that needs to be overcome.

1 Cor 2:4-5
My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

I'm not sure what your suggesting. Are you suggesting that God must conquer our will with His power? Or are you saying that's the part we must do, conquer our stubborn wills?

 

[stenerson]

Faith comes by revelation, not by regeneration.

Salvation's a complete package, scripture doesn't try to lock it up in some chronological formula. God commands us to believe and be saved. And we are told in other areas the reason that we have come to faith..