No Pleasure Or Good Pleasure?

stenerson

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Faith comes by revelation, not by regeneration.

So in arguing the above texts pertaining to God's saying "I will" bring about in the future these great saving works. Help me understand your position. You're saying that He wasn't revealing Himself before but that He would in the future do a great work of revealing Himself?
You're getting closer.
 
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gmm4Jesus

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Salvation's a complete package, scripture doesn't try to lock it up in some chronological formula. God commands us to believe and be saved. And we are told in other areas the reason that we have come to faith..

There is a revealed order and it is that faith comes before regenerated spiritual life.



Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE."

The simple order presented is:

1. Repentance to…
2. Life (regeneration)

It does not say that the Gentiles were granted life unto repentance. Repentance comes first.


Romans 8:10
But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet YOUR SPIRIT IS ALIVE BECAUSE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

A person’s spirit is made alive (regeneration) BECAUSE OF righteousness and you are made righteous by faith. So, the order is:

1. Faith
2. Christ’s righteousness imputed
3. Spiritual comes alive (regeneration)

You do not have an alive spirit prior to justification by faith. If you did, you would be a born again spiritual child who is impure, condemned, and under wrath. You must be made righteous first and then God makes you alive in Christ.


Calvinists say you have to be spiritually alive to hear, yet Jesus says otherwise:

John 5:25
I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when THE DEAD WILL HEAR the voice of the Son of God and THOSE WHO HEAR WILL LIVE.

The order presented here is:

1. Word
2. Hear (receive the Word)
3. Live

Look again… It does not say life and then hear, but hear and then live.


John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that BY BELIEVING YOU MAY HAVE LIFE in his name.

The order presented in this verse is:

1. Recorded miracles
2. Belief
3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

It would have been foolish of John to write, “that by believing you may have life” if it were by having life first in order for them to believe.


John 1:12-13
Yet TO ALL WHO RECEIVED HIM, TO THOSE WHO BELIEVED in his name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The order presented in these verses is:

1. Belief (those who believed)
2. Right to become born of God children (Regeneration)

Verse thirteen is simply an explanation of the type of children they become. Verse twelve sets the order between belief and becoming a spiritual child.


James 1:18
He chose to give us BIRTH THROUGH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. Word of truth
2. Belief in truth (assumed)
3. Birth (regeneration)

In Calvinism the Word is always rejected by a dead unregenerate sinner, therefore, it could never be the means of birth. The person would have to be made alive first to have the Word of Truth have any affect upon a person. And then, it would have said, He chose to give us faith in the Word through the new birth, but the opposite is true.


1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been BORN AGAIN, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, THROUGH THE living and enduring WORD OF GOD. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The word of God is imperishable seed that must be received/believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

How can you be born again through the Word if the Word has no effect on someone until they are born again? If regeneration came first it would be, “For you have believed the word of God through/by being born again.” This is not the case.


Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he PURIFIED THEIR HEARTS BY FAITH.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new) hearts.


Galatians 3:26
You are all SONS OF GOD THROUGH FAITH in Christ Jesus,

Through faith you are born again into the family. You become a spiritual son by faith.

1.Faith
2.Regeneration into a spiritual son.


John 12:36
PUT YOUR TRUST IN THE LIGHT while you have it, SO THAT YOU MAY BECOME SONS OF LIGHT.

It is when you put your trust in the Light, you then can become sons.

1.Trust
2.Become regenerated spiritual sons


Ephesians 1:13 describes the order in this way,

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were INCLUDED IN CHRIST WHEN YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, the gospel of your salvation. HAVING BELIEVED, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised HOLY SPIRIT,

1. Hear the Word of truth
2. Believe (having believed) the Word of truth.
3. Included in Christ / Sealed by the Spirit


The answers to the apostle Paul’s rhetorical questions in the book of Galatians also proves that belief precedes regeneration.

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: DID YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT by observing the law, or BY BELIEVING WHAT YOU HEARD?… 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1. Recipient hears Word
2. Recipient believes Word
3. Spirit is received

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1. Recipient hears Word
2. Recipient believes Word
3. Spirit is given


1 John 5:10-12
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; HE WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE SON OF GOD DOES NOT HAVE LIFE.

How can you have life (regeneration)(the Son) without belief? How can you have life before you have the Son? If you do not have the Son by first being united to Him by faith, then you do not have life (regeneration).


Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Life (regeneration) is only “in” Christ, not “outside of”, and “prior to” Christ.


1 Timothy 1:16
But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE on him AND RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

1. Belief
2. Life (regeneration)

Side note: New eternal life begins with the new birth / life (regeneration), unless you believe that a new creation can cease to be a new creature in Christ and be in need of being born again again?


Colossians 2:12
"...having been BURIED WITH HIM IN BAPTISM, in which you were also RAISED WITH HIM THROUGH YOUR FAITH in the working of God, who RAISED him FROM THE DEAD."

1. Faith to be baptized and through faith to be raised.
2. Raised with Christ
 
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gmm4Jesus

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So in arguing the above texts pertaining to God's saying "I will" bring about in the future these great saving works. Help me understand your position. You're saying that He wasn't revealing Himself before but that He would in the future do a great work of revealing Himself?


Do you deny that there are varying degrees of revelation?
 
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stenerson

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Through prevenient grace, God overcomes the will to bring those who will believe to belief.

Well, okay, at least we're agreed that man does not have free will. So you believe that God has conquered every man's will through prevenient grace?

And back to the texts I showed you. The promises and prophecies of a great work that God would do in the future. Are you saying that God was not choosing to give prevenient grace in the past for the most part? But that in the future (now New Testament period) He is fulfilling these promises that He would cause hordes of Gentiles and many stiff-necked Jews to faith?
You see where your theology leads you?
Remember you are the one saying that this prophecy of what God would accomplish takes place by His previenient Grace. Why wasn't God choosing to display this previenient grace in the past to all at all times?
 
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stenerson

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Do you deny that there are varying degrees of revelation?

The prophecies boast of God accomplishing a great work(in the future) leading to the salvation of countless gentiles and many stiff-necked Israelites. It's not only saying that He will reveal more about Himself, it's saying that the effect of His work will result in great numbers of saved people. A work which He was not always doing among the gentiles. He for the most part gave them over to their idolatry and reprobate minds.
You're saying that this means He will be gracious by giving prevenient grace to all. That's how you say He will accomplish this. Which means He doesn't always choose to show this grace to all people, at all times. I agree with you. I simply believe that these people will be saved by real grace, not a hypothetical previenient grace.
 
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stenerson

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It is free to choose what is desired between viable options.

Well of course. That's what the faculty of the will is. Looking at 2 or more options and choosing one. Are you saying that God must conquer this, or that He through prevenient grace conquers it in all men. Remember, that's basically what the doctrine of prevenient grace is. Some agree that the bible is true about man's God hating, rebellious and sin loving nature. It looks for a formula to make God's saving work egalitarian. Presto! Prevenient grace.
Makes no sense though in light on how you responded to those OT prophecies. Your response proves that God does not show the same grace to all people, at all times.
 
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gmm4Jesus

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God conquers the will to resist in those He knows will believe. Paul's revelatory encounter to bring him to faith was much different than yours. Why would there ever need to be anything more than a simple gospel presentation, if the Spirit simply regenerates the person making their heart good receptive soil. Previous goading would be unnecessary and ultimate dramatic encounters like my mother's would be unnecessary to bring a regenerate person to faith.
 
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stenerson

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God conquers the will to resist in those He knows will believe.

Sorry, that just makes no sense, especially from a scriptural point of view. Plus, you are admitting that the will must be conquered by God. I agree with that part, the Arminian view of free-will is erroneous.

Why would there ever need to be anything more than a simple gospel presentation, if the Spirit simply regenerates the person making their heart good receptive soil. Previous goading would be unnecessary and ultimate dramatic encounters like my mother's would be unnecessary to bring a regenerate person to faith.

Because the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Yes the Holy Spirit quickens, gives life, opens eyes to see, ears to heart etc ..
But scripture teaches that the Holy Spirit uses means. The means used is the gospel message (the foolishness of preaching).
 
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stenerson

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The point is that only the simply means of a peaceful gospel presentation would be necessary to bring a regenerated person to faith. The means of a dramatic encounter would not be necessary.

And, if God is omniscient then it makes perfect sense and it is Scriptural. :) You know - the whole foreknowledge thing.

Yes, the foolishness of preaching, the simple gospel message is what the Spirit uses to effect dramatic change, repentance, faith etc.
 
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