Is it odd how many Christians post that eternal security with Jesus isn't true?

[Blondepudding]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

Hello Blondepudding,

What this amounts to is that there are Christians on CF who come from different denominations. Some groups, such as the Southern Baptists, believe in articulating salvation in terms of a more Calvinistic view of Eternal Security, and other groups, like Methodists, articulate it in terms of those of Jacob Arminius, who taught that God's grace can be resisted.

So, yes, you'll find Christians on both sides of the issue. The teaching in the church over the past 2,000 hasn't just been one like that of Calvin, who came along during the Reformation era.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[SkyWriting]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

It is generally believed among most Christians that one must
do good works to gain admission to heaven. Another belief
is that bad deeds will land them in Hell. This is quite prevalent.

 

[Isaiah55:6]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

I will just chime in by saying I 100% agree. Ty for your post.

 

[Shempster]

This concept only applies to those who believe you either go to heaven or hell. There are numbers of Christians who feel the scriptures teach otherwise. I am not saying its true or untrue but the entire concept of Calvanism and Armenism rides on it.

 

[Rajni]

Along the same lines, there have also been threads which
have gone out of their way to proclaim a message that
God doesn't love everyone. Such threads, as well as the
ones challenging eternal salvation, leave me wondering
what it is, exactly, that's going on inside these people that
they would find it so important to spread such messages.



-

 

[Stancet]

First of all, I'm not looking for a fight and I'm not trying to question anybody's faith in Jesus.

I attend a Southern Baptist church and I've studied some from some incredibly well educated theologians. I believe the doctrine of Eternal Security is real. It's not wishful thinking and it's not about Jesus dying for the elect like Calvinists believe. Jesus saves, and Christians might stumble, but if good deeds are required to go to heaven then Jesus's sacrifice was insufficient.

Now you don't have to believe in Eternal Security to be saved, or to be a good Christian, but there is substance and proof if anyone is interested.

 

[FireDragon76]

Christians have different beliefs.

Eternal Security is not a doctrine of Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, or Methodists.

The only churches that teach eternal security as an important doctrine are certain Baptist groups in the US. This is typically called "Once Saved, Always Saved".

 

[variant]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

My experience with people calling themselves Christians is that they aren't necessarily always completely buying what the Church and Bible tells them.

 

[Four Angels Standing]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so? And how do they do that when they're saying that about themselves first?

I would think a Christian forum believes itself to at all times present the image of God and Christ to anyone who reads its pages. A ministry of sorts that is there to inform those who are not Christian about that faith should they happen on the site.

What impression does it give when Christians believe they are to preach the gospel so that all may be saved from their sins, and then post threads that tell people that should they accept Christ and be redeemed they're actually not secure in that salvation like they thought?

There is no order of proof when professing one's self as Christian.
Romans 16:17-18
I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...Now you don't have to believe in Eternal Security to be saved, or to be a good Christian, but there is substance and proof if anyone is interested.

I suspect you and I have different definitions of 'substance' and 'proof', but I'm interested in such claims - go ahead.

 

[Stancet]

I suspect you and I have different definitions of 'substance' and 'proof', but I'm interested in such claims - go ahead.

Here are just a few verses to ponder. These are from the English Standard Bible (ESV).

John 6:37 "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out."

2 Corinthians 1:21-22 "And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee."

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory."

Romans 8:38-39 "For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

 

[Rajni]

I browse the forums where non-Christians aren't allowed to post. And I found quite a few threads making claims about eternal security in Jesus, or eternal salvation in him, isn't true?

Does anyone else find it odd that Christians would argue that is so?

It's like those who go out of their way to declare a
message that God doesn't love everyone.

Personally, I find such people of unsure footing to begin
with. To be surrounded by others who are firmly rooted in
"that peace which passes all understanding" likely annoys
them enough to drive them to proclaim such twisted ideas.

To me, it's not so much those messages as it is why one would
find it so important to proclaim them in the first place.
What therapeutic effect are they getting out of it?

As far as I'm concerned, such messages are bunk.
No one is slipping through God's hands. Period.
If an alleged butterfinger-afflicted 'god' does exist,
it's probably nothing that a good exorcism can't
remove.

-

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Here are just a few verses to ponder. These are from the English Standard Bible (ESV).

Ah. OK, As I thought. What makes you think those old texts are substance and proof of anything other than that someone wrote them a long time ago?
The key to substance & proof is that it demonstrably establishes a truth. I'm sure there are plenty of ancient writings you don't consider to be substance or proof of anything, so what makes these different?

 

[Stancet]

Ah. OK, As I thought. What makes you think those old texts are substance and proof of anything other than that someone wrote them a long time ago?
The key to substance & proof is that it demonstrably establishes a truth. I'm sure there are plenty of ancient writings you don't consider to be substance or proof of anything, so what makes these different?

Sorry. I was trying to explain to you the evidence behind the Once-Saved-Always-Saved teaching that some Christians believe. I was giving you verses that support this teaching, but I just discovered in your profile tag that you are an atheist.

So, I assume you were actually asking for evidence that the Christian faith itself is valid. This might go against the topic of this thread but I will try my best.

There are a number of ways to approach this issue. Do you first want to direct the conversation? Maybe ask me if God exists, if all other religions are wrong, or if there's a reason to acknowledge God?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... I assume you were actually asking for evidence that the Christian faith itself is valid...

I suppose substance and proof that, 'you don't have to believe in Eternal Security to be saved, or to be a good Christian', does come down to that in the end; I just thought you might have something particular to that topic which I'd not heard.

There are a number of ways to approach this issue. Do you first want to direct the conversation? Maybe ask me if God exists, if all other religions are wrong, or if there's a reason to acknowledge God?

This is probably the wrong topic, and - unless you have something new and interesting - it's old ground that's been raked over many times.

 

[Stancet]

This is probably the wrong topic, and - unless you have something new and interesting - it's old ground that's been raked over many times.

You're probably right. But there are a few things I'm sure of. 1)I don't have all the answers. 2)I can guarantee I will never be angry with you or resort to name calling.

But I will give it a try anyways, and since we are on the topic of Eternal Security, I suppose I'll try explaining it to you.

Firstly, you'll have to bear with me and assume the Bible is valid, just for the sake of argument. The Bible's validity is going to be a different subject altogether.

Okay...

The doctrine of Eternal Security is a belief that says people who come to genuine saving faith in Jesus will go to heaven when they die, even if somewhere down the line they loose their faith and/or convert to a different religion. People who do NOT believe in this doctrine believe that you must become a Christian and remain a Christian at the time of your death, or God will forget about you and send you to hell.

But I happen to believe Eternal Security is real. One of God's biblical names is Yahweh. This hebrew name means "The Covenant Keeper". If you believe Jesus died for your sins and you accept this gift, you are entering a covenant with God. The God of the Christian faith is a wonderful being because there are many examples of humans who have failed, but our God is a god who wants to pick us up and fulfill the promises he has made to us!

To name one, Genesis chapter 15 explains the father of the Israelites, Abraham, doing an ancient covenant ritual with God. Traditionally, people in the ancient Middle East entering a treaty would cut animals in half, line those parts up and walk in between them. This was a symbolic gesture; if either person broke a covenant the violator would be made the same as those animals. But during the night God all by himself passed in between the animal parts and did not invite Abraham to do it with him. God wasn't going to fulfill every promise he made to Abraham by forcing Abraham to do his part. God was going to fulfill his covenant promise to Abraham, whether Abraham was obedient to him or not, and God lived up to his promise by blessing Abraham abundantly.

Now... does this prove anything about the Christian faith? Not really. But God is good, and if I can prove it to you I hope it might change how you see things.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

You're probably right. But there are a few things I'm sure of. 1)I don't have all the answers. 2)I can guarantee I will never be angry with you or resort to name calling.

I can reciprocate those sureties

you'll have to bear with me and assume the Bible is valid, just for the sake of argument. The Bible's validity is going to be a different subject altogether.

I'd like to know what you mean by 'valid' and which parts of the bible are included.

The doctrine of Eternal Security is a belief that says people who come to genuine saving faith in Jesus will go to heaven when they die, even if somewhere down the line they loose their faith and/or convert to a different religion.

Can a child have a 'genuine saving faith in Jesus'? If not, at what stage is it possible/available?

I'm curious because I was brought up Christian (Catholic), and - though I don't really remember - it's possible that at one time I may have believed in Jesus as much as, or perhaps more, than I believed in the other imaginary beings that kids were encouraged to believe in. If that was a genuine saving faith, then all bases are covered, no need for Pascal's Wager - but, as I said, I don't recall...

... during the night God all by himself passed in between the animal parts and did not invite Abraham to do it with him.

So someone stayed awake and saw God?

 

[Four Angels Standing]

It's like those who go out of their way to declare a
message that God doesn't love everyone.

Personally, I find such people of unsure footing to begin
with. To be surrounded by others who are firmly rooted in
"that peace which passes all understanding" likely annoys
them enough to drive them to proclaim such twisted ideas.

To me, it's not so much those messages as it is why one would
find it so important to proclaim them in the first place.
What therapeutic effect are they getting out of it?

As far as I'm concerned, such messages are bunk.
No one is slipping through God's hands. Period.
If an alleged butterfinger-afflicted 'god' does exist,
it's probably nothing that a good exorcism can't
remove.

-

I chuckled at the last part of your remarks. Not in a mocking condescending way but due to the terms you used to get to the observation that I agree with.

Did not the scriptures warn us that even Satan can quote them? That in the last days there would be teachings of devils trying to lead the Saints from the righteous path?

They're heeeeere! To use a phrase from a famous movie, not to identify this community specifically.

They're dedicated too. There are those who are referred to even on television ministries wherein there is an episode where the pastor and his assistants go through the Bible. And in the process talk about the new teachings that are making their way through certain churches.

The teachings that the Saints not need to recognize when they sin or confess their sins to the Lord anymore. Which of course an all knowing God is aware, but the confession is a sort of inventory and self-reflection for our own sake as we make our way to realize our behaviors.
The teachings that we can sin with bold abandon because we're saved.Covered by the blood and can never fall away into the darkness but are assured Heaven.

The teaching that the moral commands of God that are in our hearts aren't actually there. Nor do they apply anymore.

The teaching that the Sabbath day no longer exists.

All these teachings of that devil that can quote scripture and takes joy in thinking he's persuaded Jesus' church to fall away are out there.

That's why we should not be surprised because we were warned weren't we. The Devil prowls this world like a hungry lion looking for souls to devour.How's he do that? By persuading his faithful to quote scriptures as he can and lead the Saints to follow to our own destruction.

It is heartening that an Ignostic member here would recognize this is happening and find it curious. Blessings abide unto you Blonde Pudding for getting our attention. If you can see this, we that do not should maybe take the time to reflect on what we consume with our eyes when we read even these boards. As well as when we hear of churches in our own communities and what they're proposing in their own opinion are today's words of their god.

Thank you, BP.

 

[Stancet]

I'd like to know what you mean by 'valid' and which parts of the bible are included.

Christians believe that the Bible is a book written by men who were inspired by God's Holy Spirit that gave them instruction in their writings. The Holy Spirit thus created the Bible as the means for us to know who God is and how we can receive instruction from him. The early church composed the Bible from hundreds of ancient writings, with the help of the Holy Spirit.

In order to prove the Bible is valid, you need to know how to see "the Holy Spirit's fingerprints" as it were. The Bible is also without flaw or contradiction, even though it might appear to be at times. Do all Christians believe this? No. Should they believe it? Yes, but only if we can help them to understand.

Can a child have a 'genuine saving faith in Jesus'? If not, at what stage is it possible/available?

I'm curious because I was brought up Christian (Catholic), and - though I don't really remember - it's possible that at one time I may have believed in Jesus as much as, or perhaps more, than I believed in the other imaginary beings that kids were encouraged to believe in. If that was a genuine saving faith, then all bases are covered, no need for Pascal's Wager - but, as I said, I don't recall...

2 Corinthians 7:10 says, "For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death."

Let me put it to you this way. God loves you very much and he's given you the Bible to help you understand who he is. God has even made humanity in his image (meaning a mind and personality). Still, humanity is a fallen race because we are corrupt and sinful, but God loved us enough to provide us a way out.

"Saving Faith" is a point in your understanding of God that's available to anyone of any age. After you begin to realize what sin looks like through God's eyes, and you've come to believe that Jesus is the person he said he is, this is when saving faith happens. You begin to realize the sins you've committed (even the small ones) make you deserving of God's wrath, and you also firmly believe that Jesus was sent by God to be the ransom for your sins. If, during one such moment you willfully confessed your guilt and sorrow and then asked Jesus to forgive you, then you are Saved-And-Always-Saved.

Now, I don't pretend to know whether-or-not you had saving faith at a young age, but I will say this. A child can develop "belief" with help from their parents, but ultimately they develop "faith" by themselves, when they reach the conclusion for themselves that God is real. (That's the definition of faith).

Now, I very much admire Pascal's Wager. And maybe you were saved as a child, FrumiousBandersnatch, but there is more to Eternal Security than you might realize. There are, indeed, people going to heaven who later lost their faith, but God rewards people in heaven differently depending on how faithful they were on earth. I have scriptural proof of this doctrine also.

But the ultimate point of my posts is to help, because I'd like you to know FrumiousBandersnatch that you can go to heaven and rest assured that you won't loose your salvation. I won't force you, but I'll keep giving you answers if that's what you want.

So someone stayed awake and saw God?

No, no. In the story, Abraham fell into a deep sleep and dreamt that God went in between the animals to confirm his promise with Abraham. More specifically, Abraham saw a furnace which represents the presence of God (because God does not have a physical form). But he knew it was God because God gave him these instructions when he was awake.

(now I just want you to know it took me a whole Star Trek episode to write this for you