Interesting panel discussion about cholesterol, saturated fats, fiber

[trophy33]

 

[FireDragon76]

It's not a discussion, it's an echo chamber.

 

[Laodicean60]

At 32 min. The paper Saturated fat: Villan or Boogyman I went through the underlined references:
"PubMed, Google scholar, and Scopus were searched for articles published between 2010 and 2021 on the association between SFA consumption and CVD risk and outcomes."

#17 "In summary, although substitution of dietary polyunsaturated fat for saturated fat has been shown to lower CVD risk, there are few epidemiologic or clinical trial data to support a benefit of replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate. Furthermore, particularly given the differential effects of dietary saturated fats and carbohydrates on concentrations of larger and smaller LDL particles, respectively, dietary efforts to improve the increasing burden of CVD risk associated with atherogenic dyslipidemia should primarily emphasize the limitation of refined carbohydrate intakes and a reduction in excess adiposity."
#13 "This expert panel reviewed the evidence and reached the following conclusions: the evidence from epidemiologic, clinical, and mechanistic studies is consistent in finding that the risk of CHD is reduced when SFAs are replaced with polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs). In populations who consume a Western diet, the replacement of 1% of energy from SFAs with PUFAs lowers LDL cholesterol and is likely to produce a reduction in CHD incidence of ≥2-3%. No clear benefit of substituting carbohydrates for SFAs has been shown, although there might be a benefit if the carbohydrate is unrefined and has a low glycemic index"

I stopped looking because most of the references weren't studies on saturated fat. Like I said camp diets will lead you to a biased opinion.

 

[trophy33]

It's not a discussion, it's an echo chamber.

"Panel discussion" is a specific term that means "a structured conversation that brings together multiple experts to discuss a specific topic in front of an audience".

It does not mean they have to disagree with each other.

 

[trophy33]

At 32 min. The paper Saturated fat: Villan or Boogyman I went through the underlined references:
"PubMed, Google scholar, and Scopus were searched for articles published between 2010 and 2021 on the association between SFA consumption and CVD risk and outcomes."

#17 "In summary, although substitution of dietary polyunsaturated fat for saturated fat has been shown to lower CVD risk, there are few epidemiologic or clinical trial data to support a benefit of replacing saturated fat with carbohydrate. Furthermore, particularly given the differential effects of dietary saturated fats and carbohydrates on concentrations of larger and smaller LDL particles, respectively, dietary efforts to improve the increasing burden of CVD risk associated with atherogenic dyslipidemia should primarily emphasize the limitation of refined carbohydrate intakes and a reduction in excess adiposity."
#13 "This expert panel reviewed the evidence and reached the following conclusions: the evidence from epidemiologic, clinical, and mechanistic studies is consistent in finding that the risk of CHD is reduced when SFAs are replaced with polyunsaturated fatty acids (PUFAs). In populations who consume a Western diet, the replacement of 1% of energy from SFAs with PUFAs lowers LDL cholesterol and is likely to produce a reduction in CHD incidence of ≥2-3%. No clear benefit of substituting carbohydrates for SFAs has been shown, although there might be a benefit if the carbohydrate is unrefined and has a low glycemic index"

I stopped looking because most of the references weren't studies on saturated fat. Like I said camp diets will lead you to a biased opinion.

The paper was presented to support that there is no causality between saturated fats and CVDs. However, the paper goes even further and concludes that there is not even any association (which basically rejects any possible causality).

From the paper itself:

Conclusion
Findings from the studies reviewed in this paper indicate that the consumption of SFA is not significantly associated with CVD risk, events, or mortality. Based on the scientific evidence, there is no scientific ground to demonize SFA as a cause of CVD. SFA naturally occurring in nutrient-dense foods can be safely included in the diet.

The paper has 53 references and it seems that all are related to saturated fats in some way. So I am not sure what you mean.

 

[timewerx]

The carnivore Inuits aren't as muscular as many of those promoting carnivore diet over popular channels and some Inuit women look overweight, probably from not getting as much exercise as the men. Even some of the men don't look lean

I smell hard sell of the carnivore diet when Inuits look like these when not all of the are lean and slim and NONE are muscular:

 

[trophy33]

The carnivore Inuits aren't as muscular as many of those promoting carnivore diet over popular channels and some Inuit women look overweight, probably from not getting as much exercise as the men. Even some of the men don't look lean

I smell hard sell of the carnivore diet when Inuits look like these when not all of the are lean and slim and NONE are muscular:

Without specific and regular strength training, you will be just lean. Yes, you will be more muscular than for example vegans, naturally, but not like for example Shawn Baker, who competes for the world records in strength disciplines.

Genetics also play a role. He is a huge guy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Without specific and regular strength training, you will be just lean. Yes, you will be more muscular than for example vegans, naturally, but not like for example Shawn Baker, who competes for the world records in strength disciplines.

This idea that Vegans cannot be muscular is pure nonsense. Muscularity has more to do with the exercise one engages in, or not, and not diet.

Nimai Delgado is a Vegan. He was raised Vegetarian by Hindu parents, but became Vegan as an adult:

Most Vegans don't look jacked like that but then again, most people in general you are going to meet aren't especially muscular because most aren't bodybuilders.

Furthermore, muscle hypertrophy has little to do with strength. Many bodybuilders train with relatively light weights. Strength is the result of neuromuscular training and muscle fiber recruitment. Some very strong people don't have well-defined muscles.

In addition, some of the fittest people in the world aren't especially muscular. Elite endurance athletes rarely have substantial levels of muscle mass. And alot of Vegans tend to be drawn to endurance type physical sports or activities, like trail running, cycling, or hiking. So you cannot judge how fit somebody is, by whether or not they are jacked.

 

[Laodicean60]

The paper was presented to support that there is no causality between saturated fats and CVDs. However, the paper goes even further and concludes that there is not even any association (which basically rejects any possible causality).

I'm sorry but you need to go through the studies of that paper like I did. The paper is misleading when you look at the references that provided information for that paper. I quoted two of the references in my previous statement. Just like every camper you are not open to alternate views. For your information SFA= saturated fat.
Like I said before if you have to supplement your nutritional needs then the diet is not wholesome period! For both vegan and meat eaters it's common sense. Peace Out

 

[timewerx]

In addition, some of the fittest people in the world aren't especially muscular. Elite endurance athletes rarely have substantial levels of muscle mass. And alot of Vegans tend to be drawn to endurance type physical sports or activities, like trail running, cycling, or hiking. So you cannot judge how fit somebody is, by whether or not they are jacked.

It's all just about the body image thing in this age of insecurity. They trained to get bigger muscles and not about getting efficient.

Even the best melee warriors of all time, the Greek Hoplite (Spartans) don't have big muscles in reality. They have the physique of a runner.

Many of the unbelievable tactics they've employed would have required athletic endurance.

Body builders on the other-hand often lacks endurance. The goal of their training has the opposite effect of endurance training.

 

[timewerx]

Lately, BIA and other methods of calculating body fat just haven't been very reliable. Today my body fat analyzer said I was 23.6 percent body fat, even though my waist size hasn't changed. One possibility is fluctuations in glycogen, and my sodium intake may be lower and my potassium intake higher, than whatever the analyzer's calculations expect.

The Covert Bailey tape measure method also seems to be not up to the fine-grained tracking I want. I bought a Bluetooth device called Bello ("Belly" and "Hello", I guess) that uses infrared to measure visceral abdominal fat. It's cheaper than a DXA scan, and it's not effected by water or electrolytes. It should arrive tomorrow or the day after.

Glycogen is very slightly more dense than muscle and would also be treated as lean mass when measuring for body fat %

Also muscular glycogen would be fully recharged by morning before meals so if you're measuring body fat % in the morning before meals, glycogen would not be a factor in fluctuations.

 

[timewerx]

2 weeks into this much higher meat portion diet. Of that meat, approximately 50% is saturated fat. Lots of fat I'd say.

And of that lean portion, 1/3 is liver. My blood pressure actually went down by 3% on average both systolic and diastolic. My body weight did not change. Everything else is the same - energy levels, satiety levels, exercise performance, etc. At least it's a good sign that I can efficiently metabolize either meat heavy or vegetable heavy diet. There's no transitional period at all where I felt different.

This is weird since my mom on similar diet, also for two weeks, her blood pressure increased and also gained weight but it's also possible she's taking on more calories.

The only difference between us is age ofc, and the exercise load where mine is a lot higher and could make me immune to any negative effect of saturated fats since I could basically metabolize saturated fats for energy.

It's beginning to look like that exercise is a good equalizer against any potential negatives of any diets (excluding junky diets or the 'Standard American Diet')

 

[trophy33]

This idea that Vegans cannot be muscular is pure nonsense.

I did not say that vegans cannot be muscular. What I meant is that if somebody does not regularly focus on this specific muscle building, meat eaters will be more muscular than vegans, just naturally, by the logic of the protein intake.

Nimai Delgado is a Vegan. He was raised Vegetarian by Hindu parents, but became Vegan as an adult:

The photo you posted is not a natural muscle mass. Other/illegal substances are involved. A terrible example.

 

[trophy33]

I'm sorry but you need to go through the studies of that paper like I did. The paper is misleading when you look at the references that provided information for that paper. I quoted two of the references in my previous statement. Just like every camper you are not open to alternate views. For your information SFA= saturated fat.
Like I said before if you have to supplement your nutritional needs then the diet is not wholesome period! For both vegan and meat eaters it's common sense. Peace Out

I think you misunderstood that the paper in question is a review. They examined the sources from which you quoted from their abstracts. But have you done the actual examination of their data like the authors of the review we talk about did, to make an assessment whether these studies support the thesis that saturated fats are significantly associated with CVD and whether their quality is high and whether they do not contradict other similar studies?

You can find a related article here: Saturated fatty acids: should really be considered as dietary cardiovascular risk factors or it is time to change perspective?

"In the manuscript ‘Saturated fat: villain and bogeyman in the development of cardiovascular disease?, Valk et al.12 review and discuss the most recent scientific evidence on the association between dietary saturated fat and CV disease.
They analysed and reviewed a total of 2 observational studies, 2 RCTs, and 22 systematic reviews and meta-analyses...

Based on the literature analysis, the authors affirmed that the recommendations to limit the consumption of SFA are based on weak and contradictory evidence and do not meet scientific standards for guidelines, as already affirm in the past"

 

[FireDragon76]

I did not say that vegans cannot be muscular. What I meant is that if somebody does not regularly focus on this specific muscle building, meat eaters will be more muscular than vegans, just naturally, by the logic of the protein intake.

If a person doesn't engage in some kind of strength or resistance effort, there is no stimulus for muscle to grow. Intake of more protein won't change that.

The photo you posted is not a natural muscle mass. Other/illegal substances are involved. A terrible example.

Delgado says he doesn't use steroids. His muscle definition is the result of being lean. It's entirely possible to have that kind of physique, and not use steroids. There are pro bodybuilders that have more muscle mass than that even, and they do use steroids.

 

[FireDragon76]

It's beginning to look like that exercise is a good equalizer against any potential negatives of any diets (excluding junky diets or the 'Standard American Diet')

There are some people who are athletes who actually end up with highly increased mortality. The average age of death of a pro bodybuilder, in one study, was 47 years. Looking at what most bodybuilders eat, and what they inject into their bodies, it's not hard to figure out why.

Mortality Rate Higher Among Bodybuilders - Renal and Urology News

Reasons are unclear, but use of testosterone and other performance enhance drugs could be a contributing factor.

www.renalandurologynews.com

 

[timewerx]

There are some people who are athletes who actually end up with highly increased mortality. The average age of death of a pro bodybuilder, in one study, was 47 years. Looking at what most bodybuilders eat, and what they inject into their bodies, it's not hard to figure out why.

Mortality Rate Higher Among Bodybuilders - Renal and Urology News

Reasons are unclear, but use of testosterone and other performance enhance drugs could be a contributing factor.

www.renalandurologynews.com

If I have to be specific, cardio/endurance exercise is a good equalizer against the potential side effect of any diet (excluding the 'Standard American Diet' ofc).

All-cause mortality is strongly linked to cardiovascular fitness and ironically pro body builders may only have average or even below average cardiovascular fitness.

The key metric used in measuring cardiovascular fitness is VO2max which basically your maximal oxygen uptake against body mass and since body builders have a lot of mass and the lungs don't really get bigger and anaerobic exercises that body builders do doesn't increase oxygen demand as much as aerobic exercises, their VO2max can be low.

By these accounts, a pro-body builder might only have the VO2max of a person who is sedentary and possibly overweight. Although their blood vessels could be healthier with less fatty deposits, their low VO2max can still cause many issues like chronic inflammation, elevated risk of cancer, accelerated aging.

Personally, the majority of my exercise is cardio/endurance. A tiny portion is strength training to help strengthen bones and the one-legged strength exercises to help improve balance/stability.

My VO2max is still that of a marathon runner. Last year, I got it as high as a world class endurance athlete but I never competed. I think I'm too old for competitions and don't have anything to spare for competitions. I still haven't hit the ceiling yet. I'm still improving, maybe not in terms of VO2max but mainly in my sustained power output for long periods.

 

[FireDragon76]

If I have to be specific, cardio/endurance exercise is a good equalizer against the potential side effect of any diet (excluding the 'Standard American Diet' ofc).

Activity only reduces cardiovascular disease risk somewhat. You can reduce risk of heart attacks through increased activity and exercise by about a quarter. That's not insignificant, but it also won't override other risk factors, such as diet or genetics.

All-cause mortality is strongly linked to cardiovascular fitness and ironically pro body builders may only have average or even below average cardiovascular fitness.

Weight lifting with any kind of effort does require a fair amount of cardiovascular endurance. Also, many bodybuilders that are serious are going to be doing some kind of cardio, especially during fat loss phases.

My VO2max is still that of a marathon runner. Last year, I got it as high as a world class endurance athlete but I never competed. I think I'm too old for competitions and don't have anything to spare for competitions. I still haven't hit the ceiling yet. I'm still improving, maybe not in terms of VO2max but mainly in my sustained power output for long periods.

You're in your early 40's? You could still run marathons and events like that.

 

[timewerx]

Weight lifting with any kind of effort does require a fair amount of cardiovascular endurance. Also, many bodybuilders that are serious are going to be doing some kind of cardio, especially during fat loss phases.

Yes, but in the end, the VO2max of a body builder (BB) is still going to be low.

The training, nutrition, and goals of a BB is simply counter-productive to having high VO2max even if they have substantial amount of cardio in their training.

And BB's cannot do too much cardio because that would would be counterproductive to their goals - maximizing muscle hypertrophy. In order to get big as they are, BBs tend to be overweight and weight is an important factor to VO2max (heavier is worse). Another factor to VO2max is cardiovascular fitness which you gain through cardio exercises obviously but BBs can't do too much of cardio exercises and substantially less than endurance athletes do.

VO2max is the best singular indicator of all-cause mortality.

Activity only reduces cardiovascular disease risk somewhat. You can reduce risk of heart attacks through increased activity and exercise by about a quarter. That's not insignificant, but it also won't override other risk factors, such as diet or genetics.

Genetically, I'm high risk to CVD and cancer from both parents.

You're in your early 40's? You could still run marathons and events like that.

I might join next year but only if I can drop my pace to under 6 min / mile by next year. It's not free to join and It would be better if I actually have good chances of winning to compensate for the costs, including the shoes. These things aren't cheap to me. I definitely got the lungs for it. But whether my legs are strong enough for the activity is yet to be seen. If my bones are going to get stronger and my strides are going to get faster.

I'm not running all the time for now. Just once a week. The other days I do low impact cardio like skating, cycling, and running upstairs (is actually low impact if you skip running downstairs by using the lift on the way down). To allow my bones to heal and adapt and save my running shoes from wear.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yes, but in the end, the VO2max of a body builder (BB) is still going to be low.

The training, nutrition, and goals of a BB is simply counter-productive to having high VO2max even if they have substantial amount of cardio in their training.

And BB's cannot do too much cardio because that would would be counterproductive to their goals - maximizing muscle hypertrophy. In order to get big as they are, BBs tend to be overweight and weight is an important factor to VO2max (heavier is worse). Another factor to VO2max is cardiovascular fitness which you gain through cardio exercises obviously but BBs can't do too much of cardio exercises and substantially less than endurance athletes do.

That's a good point.

Chris McAskill of Plant Chompers on Youtube recently criticized Peter Attia in his interpreting of statistics of VO2 Max, making a similar point.

Compared to the general population in the US, though, I'd expect body builders to have above average VO2 Max.

VO2max is the best singular indicator of all-cause mortality.

Sure, but it's a case of correlation, and one factor among many.