Interesting panel discussion about cholesterol, saturated fats, fiber

[timewerx]

That's a good point.

Chris McAskill of Plant Chompers on Youtube recently criticized Peter Attia in his interpreting of statistics of VO2 Max, making a similar point.

Compared to the general population in the US, though, I'd expect body builders to have above average VO2 Max.

If you only have average VO2max, it probably won't make a big difference. Body builders are shown to have only average VO2max values and if there's something wrong with the diets/nutrition, their average VO2max isn't going to protect them much.

World class endurance athletes have up to twice higher VO2max values, although the benefits are somewhat reduced by their excessive consumption of simple sugars.

Sure, but it's a case of correlation, and one factor among many.

VO2max is strongly correlated to several other factors contributing to all-cause mortality.

If you have high VO2max, you're also expected to have normal BMI (not overweight nor obese), low body fat %, optimal mitochondria, optimal oxygenation of the entire body, healthy levels of natural body antioxidants and anti-inflammatory compounds, optimal natural detoxification, normal blood pressure, minimal fatty deposits on blood vessels, optimal cellular and DNA maintenance and many other factors that contribute to good health, slowed aging, and longer lifespan.

 

[trophy33]

If a person doesn't engage in some kind of strength or resistance effort, there is no stimulus for muscle to grow. Intake of more protein won't change that.

It does. Compare "normal" vegans with "normal" carnivores. Not athletes or bodybuildiers, but average Jane and Joe. Most vegans I see are either anorectic (those who eat more raw vegan diet) or fat (those who eat more junk vegan diet). They are rarely in a normal lean weight without a lot of exercising.

Just having enough of high quality protein in a diet makes a visible difference in the body composition.

Delgado says he doesn't use steroids. His muscle definition is the result of being lean. It's entirely possible to have that kind of physique

My goodness. You cannot believe everything people say. For example his biceps are obviously not natural.

 

[FireDragon76]

It does. Compare "normal" vegans with "normal" carnivores. Not athletes or bodybuildiers, but average Jane and Joe. Most vegans I see are either anorectic (those who eat more raw vegan diet) or fat (those who eat more junk vegan diet). They are rarely in a normal lean weight without a lot of exercising.

Given that most people in most developed countries are overweight now, how can you be so sure you can reliably judge what is healthy? What you might think is "anorexic" actually might be more healthy than you assume. How can you not assume what you see as lean mass on an omnivore isn't in fact fat? It's hard to tell in some cases when the person has a normal BMI, especially in women.

I grew up in a house of overweight people. It completely distorted my understanding of what is a healthy weight and body composition. Most people in the US routinely underestimate how much body fat they actually have.

Nishi Vora is an American Vegan chef and influencer on the Youtube channel, Rainbow Plant Life. You'ld probably think she is "anorexic", but in reality her physique is healthy for somebody of South Asian descent. She's also shared results of blood tests on her channel, and she's in excellent health, and isn't deficient in any nutrients. She also doesn't eat junk food.

 

[trophy33]

Given that most people in most developed countries are overweight now, how can you be so sure you can reliably judge what is healthy? What you might think is "anorexic" actually might be more healthy than you assume.

I grew up in a house of overweight people. It completely distorted my understanding of what is a healthy weight and body composition. Most people in the US routinely underestimate how much body fat they actually have.

I did not lose the ability to recognize a normal, healthy body composition.

Anorectic vegan doctors:

 

[FireDragon76]

I did not lose the ability to recognize a normal, healthy body composition.

Anorectic vegan doctors:

That's actually in the spectrum of healthy body composition. Their weight isn't unhealthy, even if it is uncommon now days in developed nations.

When I was younger as a child decades ago, it was common to see middle aged men that has similar physiques.

 

[trophy33]

That's actually healthy body composition. Their weight isn't unhealthy.

My goodness, his neck almost cannot support his head. Try to be a bit objective.

Their obvious fragility and the lack of the muscle mass will bite when they will get older. Dr. Greger is only 51 years old, but looks like this:

This is how alcoholics or heavy smokers look like. How well will he be able to function in 80´s, 90's?

 

[FireDragon76]

My goodness, his neck almost cannot support his head. Try to be a bit objective.

I am. It is you that seems to want to be overly critical of the physique of Vegans, despite having no medical expertise to do so.

The videos I've seen Dr. Greger in, he leads a quite active lifestyle and doesn't seem frail.

I have a long neck, too. And I'm not as thin as Dr. Greger (though I am working on that).

How well will he be able to function in 80´s, 90's?

Probably alot better than most Americans that are overweight or obese. Donald Watson, the founder of the British Vegan Society, was a thin man his whole life, but he lived into his 90's.

There's a condition called obesopenia, where people are both obese and sarcopenic. Having alot of mass doesn't guarantee you'll have strength in old age.

 

[trophy33]

Probably alot better than most Americans that are overweight or obese.

Thats not a good comparison. Quite a lazy one, actually. We must compare with the ideal, not with the worst possible case like the Americans with various morbidities who rarely pass the age of 60.

 

[FireDragon76]

Thats not a good comparison. Quite a lazy one, actually. We must compare with the ideal,

An unreal ideal that exists only in your imagination? People are individuals, with individual factors that contribute to their physiques. It's unrealistic to hold them to a single, restricted ideal. Healthy weight and body composition are a spectrum, and different people are going to have different bodies.

Some people are more prone to being thin, others towards being heavier. Some people also aren't bodybuilders and have no desire to emulate them. That doesn't mean they are unhealthy or frail, nor does it necessarily mean they will be frail when they get older.

 

[trophy33]

An unreal ideal that exists only in your imagination?

No, there are many people who are in their ideal body composition. I would say I am too. So its realistic. One just needs to have a proper diet, to exercise properly, to sleep properly etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

No, there are many people who are in their ideal body composition. So its realistic. One just need to have a proper diet, to exercise properly, to sleep properly etc.

You seem to have an irrational antipathy towards Vegans, and want to only believe the worst about us. We're all liars, anorexics, or on performance enhancing drugs. It can't be that we live healthy lives and are honest people...

 

[trophy33]

You seem to have an irrational antipathy towards Vegans, and want to only believe the worst about us. We're all liars, anorexics, or on performance enhancing drugs. It can't be that we live healthy lives and are honest people...

Do not try logical fallacies. They lead nowhere.

 

[FireDragon76]

Do not try logical fallacies. It leads nowhere.

What else am I to believe? I show you plenty examples of healthy vegans, and you dismiss them all as being sick or on drugs.

 

[trophy33]

What else am I to believe? I show you plenty examples of healthy vegans, and you dismiss them all as being sick or on drugs.

I do not believe the bodybuilder is natural. Look for example at his biceps. They will not grow to such shape naturally. If you believe, thats fine. Only he truly knows.

Then I (not you) posted 2 examples of vegan doctors to show you what I mean by anorectic. And thats all what happened.

Thats hardly "I show you plenty examples of healthy vegans and you dismiss them all". Do not go into logical fallacies.

 

[FireDragon76]

I do not believe the bodybuilder is natural. Look for example at his biceps. They will not grow to such shape naturally. If you believe, thats fine. Only he truly knows.

He's flexing, which makes the muscles contract and appear larger. He's not even particularly big by bodybuilder standards, though he is relatively lean (which helps muscle definition). There are some guys now days, due to the use of insulin and other PED's, that are alot more massive, sometimes up to over 300 lbs.

A physique like that is attainable with enough training, even for somebody not using steroids. Most Vegans don't look like that, because most don't spend hours at the gym training with weights and machines. You do have to eat a bit more protein to look that, but a Vegan diet is perfectly capable, just by eating normal Vegan foods.

Dr. Greger walks alot every day. He has an under-desk treadmill. I doubt he's remotely frail, in terms of realistic measures a doctor would use.

 

[trophy33]

He's flexing, which makes the muscles contract and appear larger. He's not even particularly big by bodybuilder standards, though he is relatively lean (which helps muscle definition). There are some guys now days, due to the use of insulin and other PED's, that are alot more massive, sometimes up to over 300 lbs.

A physique like that is attainable with enough training, even for somebody not using steroids. Most Vegans don't look like that, because most don't spend hours at the gym training with weights and machines. You do have to eat a bit more protein to look that, but a Vegan diet is perfectly capable, just by eating normal Vegan foods.

Dr. Greger walks alot every day. He has an under-desk treadmill. I doubt he's remotely frail, in terms of realistic measures a doctor would use.

If you want to believe that, OK. Without him showing test results, we can argue forever.

Regarding borderline anorexia in many vegans, they may function now, but in their 80´s, 90's, such low muscle mass people then have problems when falling or to even get up from for example toilets.

 

[FireDragon76]

If you want to believe that, OK. Without him showing test results, we can argue forever.

Frailty has a specific medical definition. It's a lack of muscle strength that results in loss of ability to do ordinary life activities. I'm sure Dr. Greger can rise out of a chair or out of bed easily. I've seen him walking around and he doesn't lack strength in his lower body. He's leads a very active life with alot of walking. None of that fits with some kind of perception of frailty.

Just watch this recent interview if you don't believe me. The guy has alot of energy. Sure, he's skinny and lean, but that doesn't mean he's unhealthy.

Regarding borderline anorexia in many vegans, they may function now, but in their 80´s, 90's, such low muscle mass people then have problems when falling or to even get up from for example toilets.

Donald Watson, the man who coined the term "Vegan" many decades ago, didn't have a problem getting around into his 90's.

Sarcopenia almost always involves people aging in poor health and comorbidities, and rarely is due to diet alone.

 

[trophy33]

Frailty has a specific medical definition. It's a lack of muscle strength that results in loss of ability to do ordinary life activities. I'm sure Dr. Greger can rise out of a chair or out of bed easily. I've seen him walking around and he doesn't lack strength in his lower body. He's leads a very active life with alot of walking. None of that fits with some kind of perception of frailty.

Just watch this recent interview if you don't believe me. The guy has alot of energy. Sure, he's skinny and lean, but that doesn't mean he's unhealthy.

I was talking about that vegan bodybuilder who claims he takes nothing. We can argue about him forever, without him showing test results for testosterone or other substances, we will be just guessing.

Donald Watson, the man who coined the term "Vegan" many decades ago, didn't have a problem getting around into his 90's.

I do not know who he is, but one can find few individuals who somehow defy the odds, like some heavy smokers living to 90's without any cancer. However, the healthy aging distribution (probability) in the population is a different thing.

 

[trophy33]

The guy has alot of energy. Sure, he's skinny and lean, but that doesn't mean he's unhealthy.

Regarding Dr. Gregger, he is looking much older than his real 51 years. Accelerated aging is a sign of not being healthy.

 

[FireDragon76]

Regarding Dr. Gregger, he is looking much older than his real 51 years.

I don't see that. He looks like he's middle-aged. His baldness is genetic, perhaps that makes him look older, but he's had it for decades.

I think you are giving alot of significance to appearance. The skin is just one organ among many. Sun exposure has alot to do with skin aging.