I love the Mother of God!

[NotUrAvgGuy]

They could have of course rejected God's gift. I'm that case, the forgiving of sins or physical healing wouldn't have happened because of their intercession.

God's grace is irresistible. God's plans cannot be thwarted. God foreordained that man would be healed in that way that day. God used those men and their faith to intercede on behalf of their friend is commendable but it is God who works in and through us to bring about His will. If God uses me to accomplish His will, I feel good about it but I don't take credit. The glory is all God's. This is besides the point though as these men were living men who interceded, not those who are in heaven who no longer can intercede for us.

 

[concretecamper]

God's grace is irresistible.

That, is not the same as this

God's plans cannot be thwarted. God foreordained

The idea of God's grace being irresistible is not biblical

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

That, is not the same as this


The idea of God's grace being irresistible is not biblical

Then your God is not sovereign. His will is subject to our choices.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

26 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8)

The Spirit is a reference to the Holy Spirit (Gr. pneuma). When we pray, the Holy Spirit is hearing our prayers and making intercession for us to the Father. The Holy Spirit is God. If we already have the Holy Spirit hearing our prayers and interceding for us, what need have we for any other intercession? God already knows your heart. He already knows your needs. Notice that the Holy Spirit intercedes "according to the will of God." We cannot change God's will nor tell Him something He doesn't already know. God's will is immutable.

Do you think God is going to change His will because Mary or Saint X prays for us? No. God already knows all the details and already has decided what His will is. He is not going to change His will based on who prays to Him. God never changes His will. To do so would imply God didn't know all the facts or had made a decision that could be improved upon. Neither is possible with God. We don't pray to change God's mind. We pray for our own benefit. Prayer causes us to look to God in faith. Prayer causes us to ask Him what His will is. Prayer causes us to put our trust in God and accept His will. Prayer changes us, it does not change God.

Do you think God's will is to say "no" to my request but if asked by Mary he'll say "yes" because of His love for her? God doesn't change His mind. He is not a human being who might be swayed by who makes the request. When Scripture says "the prayers of a righteous man accomplishes much" it does not mean a righteous man has more pull with God. A righteous man is a man whose will is in line with God's will. When we pray according to God's will, He grants all our requests.

There is a faulty line of anthropomorphic thinking that says "If your friend praying for you can help, how much more if the Mother of God prays for you!" God's will is not changed by our prayers! We ask others to pray for us because it brings us comfort and involves others in exercising their faith. While you might argue that "praying" to Mary brings one comfort, it should not when we realize she cannot hear our prayers nor is a proper object of prayer. When we are told to "pray without ceasing" it is not because our constant praying will wear God down or impress Him such that He will reward us with what we ask. We are commanded to "pray without ceasing" because prayer is an exercise of faith and builds our faith. It is not a threshold test to gain God's favor.

Mary does need to exercise her faith. Her faith is complete. She is with God and everything she hoped for, believed in, and had faith in is now fulfilled for her. Our prayers can only be heard by God. If we have the Spirit interceding for us, what can Mary add (if she could even hear our prayers which she can't)?

Biblically, prayer is to God, and God alone. Only God can hear our prayers. We have no one instance in Scripture of a believer praying to anyone other than God. There is no advantage to attempt to pray to anyone other than God. They cannot hear our prayers and could not sway God or change His mind.

 

[concretecamper]

Then your God is not sovereign. His will is subject to our choices.

Really? You have a habit of making erroneous assumptions. I'm starting to wonder if it is on purpose.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The straw is strong with this one.

Indeed, it is. I am certain that you have not failed to notice how he is attempting to evade the actual passage. Thank you.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really? You have a habit of making erroneous assumptions. I'm starting to wonder if it is on purpose.

I have ceased wondering about your modus operandi, as, I am certain, you have ceased wondering about mine.

 

[concretecamper]

I have ceased wondering about your modus operandi, as, I am certain, you have ceased wondering about mine.

I'll take that as you calling "Uncle"

 

[concretecamper]

26 Now in the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know what to pray for as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27 and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. (Romans 8)

Very consistent with the teaching of His Church.

Do you think God is going to change His will because Mary or Saint X prays for us? No. God already knows all the details and already has decided what His will is. He is not going to change His will based on who prays to Him. God never changes His will. To do so would imply God didn't know all the facts or had made a decision that could be improved upon. Neither is possible with God. We don't pray to change God's mind. We pray for our own benefit. Prayer causes us to look to God in faith. Prayer causes us to ask Him what His will is. Prayer causes us to put our trust in God and accept His will. Prayer changes us, it does not change God.

Do you think God's will is to say "no" to my request but if asked by Mary he'll say "yes" because of His love for her? God doesn't change His mind. He is not a human being who might be swayed by who makes the request. When Scripture says "the prayers of a righteous man accomplishes much" it does not mean a righteous man has more pull with God. A righteous man is a man whose will is in line with God's will. When we pray according to God's will, He grants all our requests.

Thank you for your attempt to explain the infinite with you human intellect. However, your explanation falls short in explaining God who is ever present in the past, present, and future.

"the prayers of a righteous man accomplishes much" it does not mean a righteous man has more pull with God. A righteous man is a man whose will is in line with God's will. When we pray according to God's will, He grants all our requests.

Your novel interpretation is at odds with 2000 years of faith. Don't be bothered that most of us don't agree with you

James 5:14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Really? You have a habit of making erroneous assumptions. I'm starting to wonder if it is on purpose.

If it was God's will that those men lower their friend through the roof to Jesus, could they have chosen not to lower him?

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Very consistent with the teaching of His Church.

Thank you for your attempt to explain the infinite with you human intellect. However, your explanation falls short in explaining God who is ever present in the past, present, and future.

Time (past, present, future) only applies to one bound to a physical existence in a physical universe. God lives outside of the universe. He lives in the "eternal now." Past, present, and future are all one to Him. He is not waiting to see what the future will bring. The future is not unknown to Him. There is no "future" for God. We cannot fully fathom that because we are finite creatures bound to a finite universe. What is future to us is already known to God. I don't pretend to fully grasp that but I know it's true. Just because I can't fully grasp it doesn't mean I am going to contradict that we know about God and suppose there is a way in which we can change God's mind through prayer. Why would God need to change His mind? Is there something He doesn't know? Does he not have all the facts? Has He not thought it through? Let's stick to what we do know about God. God is sovereign. God is outside of time and space. God's will is perfect. God's knowledge is perfect. The past, present, and future are all one to God and all known by Him. Given those facts, God does not need to change His mind in response to our prayers.

Your novel interpretation is at odds with 2000 years of faith. Don't be bothered that most of us don't agree with you

James 5:14 Is any man sick among you? Let him bring in the priests of the church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man. And the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
5:16 Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.

To understand this passage, you must understand the context of James's epistle. He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution. They are weary. Not so much in body but in spirit. The word "sick", in verse 15, comes from a word whose primary meaning is "to be weak, feeble, or impotent." He immediately goes on to talk about sin. The sickness is not necessarily a physical illness but rather a spiritual weariness.

I don't know about you, but when I am down and life seems too hard, to go to a fellow believer, especially a strong mature believer, and share my troubles with them and get their comfort, encouragement, and prayer, is so healing. When such a person takes a knee with you and prays for you, you feel energized and strengthened. The strength of their faith is contagious. You see how the strong in spirit approach the issue. That is why such prayers "availeth much." They strengthen us.

Again, in context, the saving is not salvation but being saved from our spiritual weakness. By confessing to each other and praying for each other, we strengthen each other. We overcome, we persevere. We are saved from that spiritual weariness that James is addressing. His sins shall be forgiven because he confesses (v 16) and asks for forgiveness.

I only care what Scripture says, not "2000 years of faith" although I would find many who agree with me. Maybe not among Catholics.

 

[Fidelibus]

To understand this passage, you must understand the context of James's epistle. He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution. They are weary. Not so much in body but in spirit.

I realize I haven't been participating in this thread, but I have been following along. I have to say though, I am wondering, could you please show the book, chapter and or verse where it say's what you stated above?


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I realize I haven't been participating in this thread, but I have been following along. I have to say though, I am wondering, could you please show the book, chapter and or verse where it say's what you stated above?


Have a Blessed Day!

What specifically did you want verses on?

 

[Fidelibus]

What specifically did you want verses on?

Well, I read through James 5:14-16 many times over,

"Any one of you who is ill should send for the elders (presbyteroi) of the church and they must anoint the sick person with oil in the name of the Lord and pray over him. The prayer of faith will save the sick person and the Lord will raise him up again/ and if he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven."

and nowhere in these passages do I see where it says,

"He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution."

Or,

"They are weary."

Or,

"Not so much in body but in spirit."

Soo.... I was hoping you could point where in the bible the book, chapter, or verse/verses it says this.


Have a Blessed Day!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Well, I read through James 5:14-16 many times over,



and nowhere in these passages do I see where it says,

"He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution."

Or,

"They are weary."

Or,

"Not so much in body but in spirit."

Soo.... I was hoping you could point where in the bible the book, chapter, or verse/verses it says this.


Have a Blessed Day!

You have to read the entire book and not just those verses. Chapter 1 sets the tone:

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you. 6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

9 Believers in humble circumstances ought to take pride in their high position. 10 But the rich should take pride in their humiliation—since they will pass away like a wild flower. 11 For the sun rises with scorching heat and withers the plant; its blossom falls and its beauty is destroyed. In the same way, the rich will fade away even while they go about their business.

12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.

13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. 17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

James is writing to Jews that have been "scattered abroad" in what is known as the diaspora created by the persecutions of Acts 7 and 8. These are Jews who have become Christians. They are under double persecution. In general, Christians were being persecuted by Gentiles and Jews, and these Jewish converts are being persecuted by Jews who see them as apostate.

They are under severe persecution and trials. James is exhorting them to remain faithful. They are also beset with temptations and lusts. They are getting hit from the inside and the outside. These are hard trials but common to all believers.

He then shifts to giving them teaching on how to conduct themselves under persecution. Chapters 2-4 are instructive. In Chapter 5 he finishes this teaching and comes back to the theme of enduring persecution:

7 Be patient, then, brothers and sisters, until the Lord’s coming. See how the farmer waits for the land to yield its valuable crop, patiently waiting for the autumn and spring rains. 8 You too, be patient and stand firm, because the Lord’s coming is near. 9 Don’t grumble against one another, brothers and sisters, or you will be judged. The Judge is standing at the door!

10 Brothers and sisters, as an example of patience in the face of suffering, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. 11 As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

In these verses, he is calling them to be faithful in temptation. He is also calling them to be patient and to persevere. The word "suffering" in verse 10, is also found in 2 Timothy. It is the Greek word kakopatheō. It means to suffer evil treatment. Endure, verse 11, hang on. The word "pray" is found in every verse from verse 13 to 18. How do you endure during trials and temptations? You pray!

Now, I say all that to say this, and this is the key to interpreting the passage if you understand the context. I am convinced that the thrust of this passage has absolutely nothing to do with physical sickness or disease at all. It is not a passage about healing physical disease. It is a passage about healing spiritual weakness, spiritual weariness, spiritual exhaustion, spiritual depression which calls for spiritual means - namely - what? - prayer. Prayer. There’s no compelling reason at all, in this text, to think that James has dropped in here a section on physical healing. That is incongruous. What a strange place to drop a section on healing diseases.

The passage before would never cause you to expect that, and the final two verses wouldn’t cause you to expect it either. It would really be out of sync with the context. But a section on how to help people who are spiritually weak, and broken, and embattled, and bruised, and wounded, and hurt, and have lost the victory, that makes sense. (John MacArthur)

 

[Fidelibus]

You have to read the entire book and not just those verses. Chapter 1 sets the tone:

According to whom? John MacArthur, or yourself?

Which would bring up the next question........ Why should we, or would we accept the tone he or you set regarding these passages, or any other Scripture passages for that matter?

Again, I read through all the bible passages you posted here in this post, and nowhere did I read where it says......

"He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution."
Or,
"They are weary."
Or,
"Not so much in body but in spirit."

If I missed seeing these words, maybe you could help pointing them out to me.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

According to whom? John MacArthur, or yourself?

Which would bring up the next question........ Why should we, or would we accept the tone he or you set regarding these passages, or any other Scripture passages for that matter?

Again, I read through all the bible passages you posted here in this post, and nowhere did I read where it says......

"He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution."
Or,
"They are weary."
Or,
"Not so much in body but in spirit."

If I missed seeing these words, maybe you could help pointing them out to me.

Have a Blessed Day!

I agree with John MacArthur as do many other Christians. I write only what I believe but I make use of, and look for confirmation from, other Christians whose knowledge of the Word of God has impressed me and whose ministries have shown their love and devotion to the Lord and their teaching the blessing of the Lord.

Unlike you, I don't put my faith in any ecclesiastical structure. I believe the Bible is readable and knowable by all who would follow sound principles and who seek God's wisdom in discerning the truth. Ultimately I will stand before God on my own. My salvation does not come from a church and I will have no one to blame but myself if my theology proves deficient (although by God's grace, we are saved by faith and do not have to pass a theology final to enter into heaven!)

As to the words you are seeking, James begins by addressing his epistle to "the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad." The term "twelve tribes" is an obvious reference to Jewish believers who live outside of Palestine. These were Jews who were forced out of Palestine by the Romans so they faced persecution from the start. It forced them to move to areas that were not predominantly Jewish which also led to persecution. Immediately after his greeting, James begins to address going through trials. While we don't know exactly which group of dispersed (Christian) Jews he penned this letter to, he wrote it for a reason. This was not just a general teaching, although it applies to all of us, but also directed at a group of people who were facing trials at that time. That is readily apparent from the context. He also immediately brings up perseverance. Why would he bring that up if they were not struggling and weary at the ongoing state of persecution?

While trials can be physical in nature, the type of persecution they were facing for being Christian Jews in a foreign land was not physical in nature. Physical persecution would come to Christians but much of the persecution was verbal and societal. Much as we see today among certain groups. James never explicitly mentions physical sickness or abuse. It is not until the end of chapter 5 that James speaks of being sick. Since his theme has been dealing with non-physical persecution, and since the Greek word translated "sick" can mean, mental or spiritual fatigue, there is nothing in the context that forces us to conclude he only has physical sickness in mind.

However, his words apply to physical sickness just as well as they address handling trials of which sickness is a type. That may not have been the trial this group of believers was experiencing but it still applies. This aside, our debate here has been whether or not it is appropriate to pray to people like Mary, Moses, or some other "saint." There is no argument that we are called to pray for one another (intercessory prayer). I contend that prayer, Biblically, is only to God. Only God can hear and answer prayers. My asking my living sister to pray for me is totally different than "praying" to a deceased saint and asking them to pray to God on my behalf. We see no examples of this in all of Scripture and we are told not to try and contact the dead as that just opens the door for demons to impersonate them and mislead us. We have access directly to God through our prayers. If we have the ear of our loving Father, what need do we have to unscripturally try to enlist the help of those who cannot hear our prayers? Maybe it makes you feel better, but that is the purpose of the Scriptural practice of asking a fellow (living) believer to pray for you. We comfort and support one another through prayer. That is not, however, a practice that applies to those who have gone to be with the Lord.

 

[Fidelibus]

I agree with John MacArthur as do many other Christians. I write only what I believe but I make use of, and look for confirmation from, other Christians whose knowledge of the Word of God has impressed me and whose ministries have shown their love and devotion to the Lord and their teaching the blessing of the Lord.

I find this most interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your belief, John MacArthur, and the many other Christians you believe whose knowledge of the word of God have made an impression on you, are mere fallible men (or women) whose interpretation/ setting the tone of the Epistle of James could be in error?

So, I have to ask, how can you (or any Protestant for that matter) know that what you believe is true, when what you believe depends entirely on your, or someone else's, private, fallible interpretations of Scripture?

Unlike you, I don't put my faith in any ecclesiastical structure. I believe the Bible is readable and knowable by all who would follow sound principles and who seek God's wisdom in discerning the truth.

Unlike me, you don't "put your faith in any ecclesiastical structure?" Interesting statement for sure! The reason being is, for what you believe to be true, depends entirely on your, or someone else's, private, fallible interpretations of Scripture; yet, here I am, also a fallible human being, trusting my decisions on the Catholic Church with pretty much 100% certainty. Is that not a contradiction since we are both fallible human beings trusting in our individual decisions for what we believe? Why can't you use the same argument on me regarding my beliefs that I use on you regarding your beliefs? In other words, as you see it, your fallible interpretations of Scripture are essentially in the same category as my fallible "decisions" in trusting the teachings of the Catholic Church.

As to the words you are seeking, James begins by addressing his epistle to "the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad." The term "twelve tribes" is an obvious reference to Jewish believers who live outside of Palestine. These were Jews who were forced out of Palestine by the Romans so they faced persecution from the start. It forced them to move to areas that were not predominantly Jewish which also led to persecution. Immediately after his greeting, James begins to address going through trials. While we don't know exactly which group of dispersed (Christian) Jews he penned this letter to, he wrote it for a reason. This was not just a general teaching, although it applies to all of us, but also directed at a group of people who were facing trials at that time. That is readily apparent from the context. He also immediately brings up perseverance. Why would he bring that up if they were not struggling and weary at the ongoing state of persecution?

While trials can be physical in nature, the type of persecution they were facing for being Christian Jews in a foreign land was not physical in nature. Physical persecution would come to Christians but much of the persecution was verbal and societal. Much as we see today among certain groups. James never explicitly mentions physical sickness or abuse. It is not until the end of chapter 5 that James speaks of being sick. Since his theme has been dealing with non-physical persecution, and since the Greek word translated "sick" can mean, mental or spiritual fatigue, there is nothing in the context that forces us to conclude he only has physical sickness in mind.

Again, nowhere in this do I see where it says...."He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution." Or, "They are weary." Or, "Not so much in body but in spirit." Could that be, because these words are nothing more than your own personal (and fallible) interpretation of James 5:14-16 which are subject to error?

I also seem to remember something you said back on post #971.

I only care what Scripture says

I would hope this still holds true.

Due to time constraints, I will gladly address the latter part of this post at a later time.



Have a Blessed Day!

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

I find this most interesting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it your belief, John MacArthur, and the many other Christians you believe whose knowledge of the word of God have made an impression on you, are mere fallible men (or women) whose interpretation/ setting the tone of the Epistle of James could be in error?

So, I have to ask, how can you (or any Protestant for that matter) know that what you believe is true, when what you believe depends entirely on your, or someone else's, private, fallible interpretations of Scripture?



Unlike me, you don't "put your faith in any ecclesiastical structure?" Interesting statement for sure! The reason being is, for what you believe to be true, depends entirely on your, or someone else's, private, fallible interpretations of Scripture; yet, here I am, also a fallible human being, trusting my decisions on the Catholic Church with pretty much 100% certainty. Is that not a contradiction since we are both fallible human beings trusting in our individual decisions for what we believe? Why can't you use the same argument on me regarding my beliefs that I use on you regarding your beliefs? In other words, as you see it, your fallible interpretations of Scripture are essentially in the same category as my fallible "decisions" in trusting the teachings of the Catholic Church.



Again, nowhere in this do I see where it says...."He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution." Or, "They are weary." Or, "Not so much in body but in spirit." Could that be, because these words are nothing more than your own personal (and fallible) interpretation of James 5:14-16 which are subject to error?

I also seem to remember something you said back on post #971.



I would hope this still holds true.

Due to time constraints, I will gladly address the latter part of this post at a later time.



Have a Blessed Day!

In Galatians 1:8, Paul writes:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

You place your trust in the Catholic church because you believe they have the authority of apostolic succession. Yet here is Paul, an apostle, saying to disregard him if he ever teaches another Gospel. How would I know (were I alive back then) if he taught another gospel? I would compare it to the original gospel he preached. The way we can do that today is by Scripture. We compare teachings today to those of Scripture. Paul trusted us to individually make that assessment. He did not say "if we, or an angel from heaven...., as decided by your church authorities, let him be accursed!" No. He is giving us authority as individual believers to judge an apostle should his teachings err. Likewise, Paul commended the believers in Berea for not just taking his word as truth but checking his words against the Scriptures. Again, he was empowering and praising individual believers for checking his teaching by Scripture. He never says to go to their church and check with them. If the Apostle Paul says to hold him accountable to Scripture, why would I not hold a Pope, bishop, priest, pastor, or church elder to Scripture? Am I fallible? Of course. Is the Pope fallible? Yes. Is the Catholic church fallible? Yes. In the end, I must make my judgment knowing I could be in error. Yet Scripture promises the Holy Spirit will lead me to the truth. I do seek the wisdom and counsel of others. Not even the Pope claims to be infallible except he teaches ex-cathedra which has rarely happened.

In my opinion, the Catholic church has departed from Scripture on some major doctrines. I believe they preach "another gospel" so I reject them as Paul advised. That is essentially what Martin Luther said in his defense. He said his conscience was bound by Scripture. The Catholic prelates of the time did not even try to show him his error in understanding the Scriptures. He asked them to. They did not. All they said we he had to obey them because they were in authority over him. He asked them to show his error from Scripture. They answered not. What kind of leaders are those who would not answer from the Scriptures? All they cared about was his challenging their position. To them, it was a matter of authority and the truth didn't matter. Why not use the opportunity to correct him publicly? At least go on record as refuting his teachings. They would not. Those are not leaders I would follow.

If you do not feel from the text that these people were spiritually weary, so be it. It's not relevant to the issue at hand. I think it's a reasonable inference but no major doctrines depend on my correctness in this.

 

[Fidelibus]

In Galatians 1:8, Paul writes:

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!

You place your trust in the Catholic church because you believe they have the authority of apostolic succession. Yet here is Paul, an apostle, saying to disregard him if he ever teaches another Gospel. How would I know (were I alive back then) if he taught another gospel? I would compare it to the original gospel he preached. The way we can do that today is by Scripture. We compare teachings today to those of Scripture. Paul trusted us to individually make that assessment. He did not say "if we, or an angel from heaven...., as decided by your church authorities, let him be accursed!" No. He is giving us authority as individual believers to judge an apostle should his teachings err. Likewise, Paul commended the believers in Berea for not just taking his word as truth but checking his words against the Scriptures. Again, he was empowering and praising individual believers for checking his teaching by Scripture. He never says to go to their church and check with them. If the Apostle Paul says to hold him accountable to Scripture, why would I not hold a Pope, bishop, priest, pastor, or church elder to Scripture? Am I fallible? Of course. Is the Pope fallible? Yes. Is the Catholic church fallible? Yes. In the end, I must make my judgment knowing I could be in error. Yet Scripture promises the Holy Spirit will lead me to the truth. I do seek the wisdom and counsel of others. Not even the Pope claims to be infallible except he teaches ex-cathedra which has rarely happened.

In my opinion, the Catholic church has departed from Scripture on some major doctrines. I believe they preach "another gospel" so I reject them as Paul advised. That is essentially what Martin Luther said in his defense. He said his conscience was bound by Scripture. The Catholic prelates of the time did not even try to show him his error in understanding the Scriptures. He asked them to. They did not. All they said we he had to obey them because they were in authority over him. He asked them to show his error from Scripture. They answered not. What kind of leaders are those who would not answer from the Scriptures? All they cared about was his challenging their position. To them, it was a matter of authority and the truth didn't matter. Why not use the opportunity to correct him publicly? At least go on record as refuting his teachings. They would not. Those are not leaders I would follow.

If you do not feel from the text that these people were spiritually weary, so be it. It's not relevant to the issue at hand. I think it's a reasonable inference but no major doctrines depend on my correctness in this.

Thanks again for responding to my latest post. However, once again I fail to see in this post of yours where I have been asking you for biblical reference in regard to James 5:14-16 where you say "believers have been undergoing intense persecution, they are weary, not so much in body but in spirit."

Instead of doing this, you seem to believe that I, a cradle Catholic, need a lesson on the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church, along with your personal interpretation/beliefs of various scripture passages from a self-admitted fallible non-Catholic such as yourself. With all respect, I find this quite odd.

However, I will say this, as a cradle Catholic, if I have a question on a certain belief or practice of the Catholic Church, which does happen more than I like to admit, I bring out my copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to find the truthful answer. I have had many non-Catholic friends and family members that tell me "The Catholic Church teaches this" or "the Catholic Church teaches that." When I hear a misconception of their views regarding the Catholic Church, I show them in the Catechism exactly what the Church teaches in regard to the topic at hand. When doing so, more time than not, they will say "really, this is what the Catholic Church actually teaches and practices? How did I get it so wrong?"

I would suggest to any Catholic, or non-Catholic, so not to spread misinformation regarding the beliefs and practices of the Catholic Church, pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or find it online to actually find the truth, and not rely on what some non-Catholic friend or pastor tells you what Catholics believe. Anyway, enough of that.

Back to the topic at hand, I will put forth to you one last time, in hopes you will address request as follows:

Nowhere in this latest post of yours do I see where it says...."He is writing to believers who have been undergoing intense persecution." Or "They are weary." Or "Not so much in body but in spirit." Could that be, because these words are nothing more than your own personal (and fallible) interpretation of James 5:14-16 which are subject to error? Keeping in mind what you said in post #971....."I only care what Scripture says." Would this also hold true with you what Scripture does not say?

Have a Blessed Day!