I love the Mother of God!

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The prayer between Jesus and the Father is interesting in that it was clearly meant for our edification, since both Jesus and the Father are coequal members of the Holy Trinity, very God of very God, of one essense, as the Nicene Creed says.

At any rate, the approach you are using concerning worship is known as the “regulative principle” and it did not actually exist prior to the 16th century, and was rejected by Lutherans and Anglicans and was never in consideration by the Orthodox, but rather was historically a Calvinist concept.

I don't subscribe to any wooden "regulative principle" nor does the church I attend. I think we have a lot of freedom in worship provided we don't worship in a way that violates Scripture. Intercessory prayer to "saints" or Mary would violate Scripture. Scripture does not lay down a heavenly liturgy or even say our worship has to be liturgical in nature. Personally, I see a lot of freedom provided we don't violate Scripture. I am not a big fan of liturgical worship although I don't think it's wrong. Just not a style I care for but I don't want a free-for-all either. You could say my church has elements of a liturgy yet you would never call it a liturgical church.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't subscribe to any wooden "regulative principle" nor does the church I attend. I think we have a lot of freedom in worship provided we don't worship in a way that violates Scripture. Intercessory prayer to "saints" or Mary would violate Scripture. Scripture does not lay down a heavenly liturgy or even say our worship has to be liturgical in nature. Personally, I see a lot of freedom provided we don't violate Scripture. I am not a big fan of liturgical worship although I don't think it's wrong. Just not a style I care for but I don't want a free-for-all either. You could say my church has elements of a liturgy yet you would never call it a liturgical church.

The idea that worship can “violate Scripture” simply because your own canon lacks instances of intercessory petitions to the venerable saints of the Church Triumphant is literally what is meant by the Regulative Principle.

The early church was liturgical, and we know this because of first century texts and a recovered second century papyrus containing an excerpt from the liturgy of the Alexandrian rite, commonly attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The prayer between Jesus and the Father is interesting in that it was clearly meant for our edification, since both Jesus and the Father are coequal members of the Holy Trinity, very God of very God, of one essense, as the Nicene Creed says.

At any rate, the approach you are using concerning worship is known as the “regulative principle” and it did not actually exist prior to the 16th century, and was rejected by Lutherans and Anglicans and was never in consideration by the Orthodox, but rather was historically a Calvinist concept.

Both the Regulative Principle and the Normative Principle are actually quite interesting. When taken to their logical ends they can lead to strange conclusions. However, they can be helpful even as the Lutheran division of Law and Grace can be very helpful in framing scripture.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

The idea that worship can “violate Scripture” simply because your own canon lacks instances of intercessory petitions to the venerable saints of the Church Triumphant is literally what is meant by the Regulative Principle.

The early church was liturgical, and we know this because of first century texts and a recovered second century papyrus containing an excerpt from the liturgy of the Alexandrian rite, commonly attributed to St. Mark the Evangelist.

We see no examples of prayer to anyone other than God. Coupled with Jesus being our only intercessor, I think we are safe in saying "prayer" to anyone other than God is going against Scripture. I am not saying you can't use drums or drama in worship because they are not found in Scripture. I would then have to be against men wearing suits and ties to worship because we don't find them in Scripture. I usually wear jeans but I can't find them in Scripture either.

The early church might have been liturgical but that does not make it prescriptive.

 

[The Liturgist]

We see no examples of prayer to anyone other than God. Coupled with Jesus being our only intercessor, I think we are safe in saying "prayer" to anyone other than God is going against Scripture. I am not saying you can't use drums or drama in worship because they are not found in Scripture. I would then have to be against men wearing suits and ties to worship because we don't find them in Scripture. I usually wear jeans but I can't find them in Scripture either.

The early church might have been liturgical but that does not make it prescriptive.

It’s not going against scripture if it is in scripture, and all of the churches which engage in intercessory prayer include books where it happens, so again, you are making the mistake of judging other churches according to the scriptural canon of your own church, and also according to a theological principle they do not agree with.

Regarding the saints as intercessors, we regard Jesus Christ as our sole mediator, but if we said He was our sole intercessor, that would llmit the value of other people praying for us, which we know from the New Testament is of great importance. And what is true on this side of the grave logically should be true on the other, in the resurrection, and this is why appeals to the saints have a history of being efficacious as a form of prayer and of actually improving the relationship between Christians and God, which may seem counter-intuitive to someone who is not accustomed to such a form of prayer, but it is very much the case. The Orthodox Church in particular is one of the most strongly Trinitarian and Incarnational churches in its theology; the importance of saints relates to us being created in the Divine Image and this image being particularly resplendant in the case of the Holy Apostles, the martyrs of the early church, the important confessors and champions of the Apostolic faith like Saints Athanasius, Basil, Cyril of Alexandria and John Chrysostom, and especially our most glorious lady Theotokos and ever virgin Mary. The relationship with the heavenly saints in communion with them, as aluded to in the Apostle’s Creed, is Eucharistic and strengthens the bond between us and God, because the experience of the saints is the experience of those Christians who have definitely obtained salvation, and it provides us with the assurance that salvation is possible despite the immense crushing weight of sin, and it is hope for that salvation and freedom from this sinful and evil existence that is our great hope and which is the promise of the Gospel.

 

[RileyG]

Salvation comes through Jesus, not Mary. We are not saved through Mary's intercession. Salvation is a gift of God through the Holy Spirit. Mary plays not part in that nor can she hear our prayers. Their is only one who can intercede for us, and this is Jesus.

Of course she can pray for us just like any other member of the Body of Christ. I agree salvation is through Christ alone.

 

[concretecamper]

They did so because they had faith that Jesus could heal their friend.

Or

We can't say Jesus healed the man because of the faith of his friends.

Haha, classic. You gotta pick.

If you have issues with the Gospel, that is your issue. Don't talk on circles though to confuse the issue.

The Gospel passage is clear:


Luke 5:19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in, because of the multitude, they went up upon the roof and let him down through the tiles with his bed into the midst before Jesus.
5:20 Whose faith when he saw, he said: Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

 

[concretecamper]

Yes, and we honor all who do His will to the same extent that we honor Mary and his siblings.

You said it perfectly. And if anyone ever did it as well as Mary did, we would honor them to the Same Extent

 

[concretecamper]

We can't say Jesus healed the man because of the faith of his friends.

Actually, He did much more, He forgave the man's sins.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You said it perfectly. And if anyone ever did it as well as Mary did, we would honor them to the Same Extent

Not to mention His brothers and sisters . . .

 

[concretecamper]

Not to mention His brothers and sisters . . .

Yes, all who are Water Baptized are His brothers and Sisters. Thanks for reminding me

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes, all who are Water Baptized are His brothers and Sisters. Thanks for reminding me

Other than the possibility that the siblings of Jesus Christ had been baptized by John the Baptist (a speculation that cannot be verified) all we know about them is that they were the brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ. Jesus clearly stated that all who do the will of God are, likewise, His mother and his brothers and sisters. He did not state that all who are water baptized are in this category.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Or


Haha, classic. You gotta pick.

If you have issues with the Gospel, that is your issue. Don't talk on circles though to confuse the issue.

The Gospel passage is clear:


Luke 5:19 And when they could not find by what way they might bring him in, because of the multitude, they went up upon the roof and let him down through the tiles with his bed into the midst before Jesus.
5:20 Whose faith when he saw, he said: Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

What I mean is that Jesus knew before that ever happened, He was going to heal that man. Their faith was a gift from God. The healing was performed to glorify God. God gave them the faith and preplanned the miracle. Since God gave them the faith, their faith was part of the working out of God's plan and not the cause of it.

 

[concretecamper]

Their faith was a gift from God. The healing was performed to glorify God. God gave them the faith and preplanned the miracle. Since God gave them the faith, their faith was part of the working out of God's plan and not the cause of it.

They could have of course rejected God's gift. I'm that case, the forgiving of sins or physical healing wouldn't have happened because of their intercession.

 

[concretecamper]

He did not state that all who are water baptized are in this category.

Jesus told His disciples to Baptize the Nations. He told us we must be Water Baptized to inherit the Kingdom of God. By being Baptized, we follow the will of the Father.

In ain't that complicated.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Jesus told His disciples to Baptize the Nations. He told us we must be Water Baptized to inherit the Kingdom of God. By being Baptized, we follow the will of the Father.

In ain't that complicated.

Actually, it is very complicated according to your denomination. Water baptism, according to your theology, is not an automatic get out of hell ticket with no expiration date. It is a ticket to the treadmill of works, works, and more works with absolutely no assurance of salvation at the end of one's days here on earth and the hope of Purgatory as precursor to heaven in the sweet bye and bye.

However, Jesus was not talking at all about water baptism per se, but obedience to God's will. Those who obey God are to be perceived as being equal to His mother and his brother and his sisters.

 

[concretecamper]

Actually, it is very complicated according to your denomination. Water baptism, according to your theology, is not an automatic get out of hell ticket with no expiration date. It is a ticket to the treadmill of works, works, and more works with absolutely no assurance of salvation at the end of one's days here on earth and the hope of Purgatory as precursor to heaven in the sweet bye and bye.

However, Jesus was not talking at all about water baptism per se, but obedience to God's will. Those who obey God are to be perceived as being equal to His mother and his brother and his sisters.

In typical fashion, you display your utter ignorance of The Faith of His Church.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In typical fashion, you display your utter ignorance of The Faith of His Church.

Pray tell, please show my any place in the Catechism of the Catholic Church wherein water baptism is the complete fulfillment of God's righteous demands and in which it provides all baptized people a get out of hell card with no expiration date.

More to the point, when Jesus said that all who do the will of God (which includes water baptism, but is hardly limited to it) they are to be considered to be His mother and brothers and sisters, did He actually mean what He said?

 

[prodromos]

Pray tell, please show my any place in the Catechism of the Catholic Church wherein water baptism is the complete fulfillment of God's righteous demands and in which it provides all baptized people a get out of hell card with no expiration date.

The straw is strong with this one.

 

[concretecamper]

Pray tell, please show my any place in the Catechism of the Catholic Church wherein water baptism is the complete fulfillment of God's righteous demands and in which it provides all baptized people a get out of hell card with no expiration date.

Since this has nothing to do with your comment that I responded to, I'll give you another bite at the Apple.