I love the Mother of God!

[The Liturgist]

I love the Theotokos. I have learned to respect her and venerate what she does us and her role with Christ.

Does anyone else feel the same

Yes! Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior, Save Us.

 

[RileyG]

Yes! Through the intercessions of the Theotokos, Savior, Save Us.

Amen!

 

[rturner76]

Also, I figure the woman who was chosen by god to being God's son into the world must be a special woman and worthy of veneration, especially for providing the environment where the Son of God could flourish and come into his ministry. She must have been resourceful (providing food, clothing, and shelter after being widowed). She also provided emotional support and instilled in him the confidence that he would need to found his kingdom. Not to mention providing the breast milk that made him a robust, strong, smart child. That is not to be overlooked. How she provided him with the nutrition that would make him a strong man that could withstand his passion with grace.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Amen!

Salvation comes through Jesus, not Mary. We are not saved through Mary's intercession. Salvation is a gift of God through the Holy Spirit. Mary plays not part in that nor can she hear our prayers. Their is only one who can intercede for us, and this is Jesus.

 

[The Liturgist]

Salvation comes through Jesus, not Mary. We are not saved through Mary's intercession. Salvation is a gift of God through the Holy Spirit. Mary plays not part in that nor can she hear our prayers. Their is only one who can intercede for us, and this is Jesus.

No Christian churches, not the Roman Catholics, nor the Orthodox, neither high church Protestants who venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (such as Anglicans and Lutheran) teach that St. Mary is the savior or even the co-redemptrix; there is in Spain a dangerous cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church which is not related to the Roman Catholic Church, which does teach such a heresy, and also tends to deprive members of their money and self-determination as cults tend to do. So frankly that aspect of your argument is irrelevant, since it is not relevant to a doctrinal position of any church that does venerate the Theotokos or engage in intercessory prayer for her (since the Palmerian cult does not adhere to the Nicene Creed, and also literally rewrote the entire Bible, I don’t regard them as a Christian denomination but rather as a cult like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses).

Regarding intercessory prayer, I am not greatly troubled by people who don’t engage in it, provided they do not engage in Nestorianism, but I will say that asking those who are alive in Heaven, members of the Church Triumphant, in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary even assumed bodily like Saints Moses and Elijah, is no different than asking members of the Church Militant in this life for prayers.

 

[concretecamper]

We are not saved through Mary's intercession

You are equating intercession with Salvation. That leads you astray.

Jesus forgave the paralytics sins because of the faith of his friends. That is intercession. Now imagine what He will forgive based on the intercession of His Mother!

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are equating intercession with Salvation. That leads you astray.

Jesus forgave the paralytics sins because of the faith of his friends. That is intercession. Now imagine what He will forgive based on the intercession of His Mother!

Who is His Mother?

Matthew 12:46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[concretecamper]

Who is His Mother?

Matthew 12:46 While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47 Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” 48 But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49 And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50 For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

Don't you love how He highlights the fact that His Mother does the will of His Father who is in Heaven.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

No Christian churches, not the Roman Catholics, nor the Orthodox, neither high church Protestants who venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (such as Anglicans and Lutheran) teach that St. Mary is the savior or even the co-redemptrix; there is in Spain a dangerous cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church which is not related to the Roman Catholic Church, which does teach such a heresy, and also tends to deprive members of their money and self-determination as cults tend to do. So frankly that aspect of your argument is irrelevant, since it is not relevant to a doctrinal position of any church that does venerate the Theotokos or engage in intercessory prayer for her (since the Palmerian cult does not adhere to the Nicene Creed, and also literally rewrote the entire Bible, I don’t regard them as a Christian denomination but rather as a cult like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses).

Regarding intercessory prayer, I am not greatly troubled by people who don’t engage in it, provided they do not engage in Nestorianism, but I will say that asking those who are alive in Heaven, members of the Church Triumphant, in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary even assumed bodily like Saints Moses and Elijah, is no different than asking members of the Church Militant in this life for prayers.

Nowhere in Scripture do we find anyone praying to deceased individuals including those assumed bodily into heaven. There are no examples of anyone praying to Eljah or Enoch (Moses was not taken bodily into heaven). Secondly, we are forbidden from attempting to communicate with the dead and no exceptions are given for Mary or any of the so-called saints. Asking another living person to pray for you is totally different than asking a deceased person to pray for you even if they are in heaven. Also, prayer, by definition, is *to God." I don't pray to my sister and ask her to pray for me. I talk to my sister and ask her to pray for me. Only God can hear our prayers. He alone is omnipresent, and omniscient. Mary is not. Furthermore, we are told that Jesus is the "one mediator" between God and man. There is no other one who can intercede for us. We pray to God through Jesus Christ. He alone can hear our prayers. He alone is our mediator.

 

[GenemZ]

No Christian churches, not the Roman Catholics, nor the Orthodox, neither high church Protestants who venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary (such as Anglicans and Lutheran) teach that St. Mary is the savior or even the co-redemptrix; there is in Spain a dangerous cult called the Palmerian Catholic Church which is not related to the Roman Catholic Church, which does teach such a heresy, and also tends to deprive members of their money and self-determination as cults tend to do. So frankly that aspect of your argument is irrelevant, since it is not relevant to a doctrinal position of any church that does venerate the Theotokos or engage in intercessory prayer for her (since the Palmerian cult does not adhere to the Nicene Creed, and also literally rewrote the entire Bible, I don’t regard them as a Christian denomination but rather as a cult like the Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses).

Regarding intercessory prayer, I am not greatly troubled by people who don’t engage in it, provided they do not engage in Nestorianism, but I will say that asking those who are alive in Heaven, members of the Church Triumphant, in the case of the Blessed Virgin Mary even assumed bodily like Saints Moses and Elijah, is no different than asking members of the Church Militant in this life for prayers.

Mary was the "chosen vessel" by God to only provide a sinless body for the sacrifice of the Cross needed.

Hence, when He [Christ] entered into the world, He said, Sacrifices and offerings ​

you have not desired, but instead You have made ready a body for Me [to offer] ​

​

Amplified Heb 10:5​

Before the Incarnation the soul of Jesus was already in Heaven being in union with God eternally.
At that time he was called in the OT "The Lord God of Israel."
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.


Here are a few passages from the OT that were showing the Soul of Jesus had been existing eternally
in union with Jehovah, which was long before the Incarnation.

​

'You will eat the old supply and clear out the old because of the new. Moreover, I will ​

make my dwelling among you, and my soul will not reject you.'I will also walk among ​

you and be your God, and you shall be My people." Lev 26:10-12 ​

​

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16 ​

​

​

​

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving ​

violence his soul certainly hates." Ps 11:5 ​

​

​

​

​

We need to keep in mind:

God is not soul.
God is spirit. (John 4:23-24)

​

Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father ​

in spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and ​

his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:23-24​

Soul and spirit are not the same in essence.

​

May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. ​

May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming ​

of our Lord Jesus Christ." 1 Thessalonians 5:23​

​

​

The Lord Jehovah of Israel in the OT, was already consisting of two natures in union before the Incarnation!

​

​

And they began to remove the foreign gods from their midst and to serve Jehovah, ​

so that his soul became impatient because of the trouble of Israel. Judges 10:16 ​

Mary was used of God to provide a male human body so that the same soul of Jehovah of the OT
could enter that body to make Himself be as a man! (Philippians 2:6-8)


Wishing you greater grace and peace ........................

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

You are equating intercession with Salvation. That leads you astray.

Jesus forgave the paralytics sins because of the faith of his friends. That is intercession. Now imagine what He will forgive based on the intercession of His Mother!

Yes, the paralytic's friends interceded for him by lowering him through the roof due to the impossible crowd around Jesus. They did so because they had faith that Jesus could heal their friend. We can't say Jesus healed the man because of the faith of his friends. He may have had other reasons we don't know of. Yet, the intercession of living friends is wholly different than the intercession of one no longer present on earth but residing in heaven. God is also sovereign. He only does what is His will. Our intercession does not cause God to act in a way He otherwise would not have. Mary is unable to hear our prayers. Only God can hear our prayers.

 

[The Liturgist]

Nowhere in Scripture do we find anyone praying to deceased individuals including those assumed bodily into heaven.

Actually that is incorrect, see 2 Maccabees, but it is also irrelevant, since the early church did not adhere to the “Regulative Principle” of worship, but we do have very early attestation of intercessory prayer to the saints.

However, as I said, I don’t care about Christians who decline to do this as long as they avoid engaging in Nestorianism, or I should add, also, iconoclasm and antidicomarianism, which tend to be related to Nestorianism and could be considered comorbid theological errors.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

Actually that is incorrect, see 2 Maccabees, but it is also irrelevant, since the early church did not adhere to the “Regulative Principle” of worship, but we do have very early attestation of intercessory prayer to the saints.

However, as I said, I don’t care about Christians who decline to do this as long as they avoid engaging in Nestorianism, or I should add, also, iconoclasm and antidicomarianism, which tend to be related to Nestorianism and could be considered comorbid theological errors.

I don't consider 1 and 2 Maccabees Scripture nor do I care what intercessory prayer was included in some early worship services. I look to Scripture and I see no examples of such prayer and certainly none in the NT.

 

[The Liturgist]

Also, prayer, by definition, is *to God."

This is surprisingly and indeed, insofar as it prompted me to reflect on a broad range of liturgical texts, fascinating, in that it is almost generally inaccurate.

Firstly, the word prayer was historically used in many secular contexts to refer to petitions, and still is, to some extent, in Great Britain.

Indeed even the word Oration, which is more specifically linked with prayer to God, has a secular usage as well.

Really, the only term we have which is specific in relations to petitions for God in the context of divine worship is liturgy, since specific subtypes of liturgical prayer almost invariably have secular meanings as well as sacred liturgical meanings. I am thinking of litanies (ectanias in Greek), and collects, and elements from Syriac Aramaic liturgy such as the Husoyo prayer, although I suspect with enough of a search I could find something, perhaps the Coptic term for praises, but this would not mean petition, however, the scarcity of terms which mean precisely what is meant through the term intercessory prayer without a secular derivation is actually remarkably and interestingly rare.

So while I fear you are mistaken on this point, I am appreciative for you making it, because I had not realized how many terms relating to prayer, worship, devotion and liturgy are limited to a sacred context, etymologically and in practice. Indeed even leitourgia may have meant something secular at one time, since it literally means “the work of the people” but in practice has since classical antiquity been used to refer to public ceremonies in a religious context.

One interesting exception to this is in the form of Hebrew, Aramaic and related Semitic terms for sacrifice, such as the Classical Syriac Aramaic phrase Qurbana Qadisha (Holy Sacrifice).

 

[bbbbbbb]

Don't you love how He highlights the fact that His Mother does the will of His Father who is in Heaven.

Yes, and we honor all who do His will to the same extent that we honor Mary and his siblings.

 

[NotUrAvgGuy]

This is surprisingly and indeed, insofar as it prompted me to reflect on a broad range of liturgical texts, fascinating, in that it is almost generally inaccurate.

Firstly, the word prayer was historically used in many secular contexts to refer to petitions, and still is, to some extent, in Great Britain.

Indeed even the word Oration, which is more specifically linked with prayer to God, has a secular usage as well.

Really, the only term we have which is specific in relations to petitions for God in the context of divine worship is liturgy, since specific subtypes of liturgical prayer almost invariably have secular meanings as well as sacred liturgical meanings. I am thinking of litanies (ectanias in Greek), and collects, and elements from Syriac Aramaic liturgy such as the Husoyo prayer, although I suspect with enough of a search I could find something, perhaps the Coptic term for praises, but this would not mean petition, however, the scarcity of terms which mean precisely what is meant through the term intercessory prayer without a secular derivation is actually remarkably and interestingly rare.

So while I fear you are mistaken on this point, I am appreciative for you making it, because I had not realized how many terms relating to prayer, worship, devotion and liturgy are limited to a sacred context, etymologically and in practice. Indeed even leitourgia may have meant something secular at one time, since it literally means “the work of the people” but in practice has since classical antiquity been used to refer to public ceremonies in a religious context.

One interesting exception to this is in the form of Hebrew, Aramaic and related Semitic terms for sacrifice, such as the Classical Syriac Aramaic phrase Qurbana Qadisha (Holy Sacrifice).

I am referring to prayer in the Bible. When Jesus prayed to the Father, it was not in any liturgical sense. Asking things of God (petitions) or praying for others (intercession) are just types of prayers we may offer to God and often our prayers mix these types. How these terms were used outside the Bible is of no relevance. Our concern is how the word is defined and used in the Bible.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't consider 1 and 2 Maccabees Scripture nor do I care what intercessory prayer was included in some early worship services. I look to Scripture and I see no examples of such prayer and certainly none in the NT.

Whether you consider them Scripture or not is frankly besides the point, since the churches which do engage in intercessory prayer regard them as Scripture, and as a result it seems a bit harsh for you to judge another denomination (specifically, Anglicanism, Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity) based not only on your own idea about the regulative principle of worship, which all tnree reject, but also on the basis of your belief considering the scriptural canon. A small majority of Christians do as it happens regard the books in question as canonical, and they were regarded as such by much the early church, although it is worth noting that in contrast to the New Testament, the early church never obtained strong consensus on the Old Testament canon but rather this has always varied between local churches even within the same communion (for example, each Oriental Orthodox church has its own Old Testament canon, with that of the Copts agreeing with the Greek Eastern Orthodox canon, which is slightly different from the Slavonic Eastern Orthodox canon, and one finds these canons to be generally respected in the Eastern Catholic churches as well.

As a result of the historic lack of consensus on the Old Testament canon it does really seem to me to be wrong to judge another denomination’s praxis on the basis of a scriptural canon which is different from the one they employ.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am referring to prayer in the Bible. When Jesus prayed to the Father, it was not in any liturgical sense. Asking things of God (petitions) or praying for others (intercession) are just types of prayers we may offer to God and often our prayers mix these types. How these terms were used outside the Bible is of no relevance. Our concern is how the word is defined and used in the Bible.

The prayer between Jesus and the Father is interesting in that it was clearly meant for our edification, since both Jesus and the Father are coequal members of the Holy Trinity, very God of very God, of one essense, as the Nicene Creed says.

At any rate, the approach you are using concerning worship is known as the “regulative principle” and it did not actually exist prior to the 16th century, and was rejected by Lutherans and Anglicans and was never in consideration by the Orthodox, but rather was historically a Calvinist concept.

 

[GenemZ]

However, as I said, I don’t care about Christians who decline to do this as long as they avoid engaging in Nestorianism, or I should add, also, iconoclasm and antidicomarianism, which tend to be related to Nestorianism and could be considered comorbid theological errors.

Now who was that supposed to impress???

Imagine if Jesus pulled that kind of tactic when Satan tempted him in the wilderness?


...... give us the Word.

 

[The Liturgist]

Now who was that supposed to impress???

Imagine if Jesus pulled that kind of tactic when Satan tempted him in the wilderness?


...... give us the Word.

I am not trying to impress anyone. The reply was not written to you or with you in mind. It was not a tactic.