how does devout christians justify voting Democrat?

[Fantine]

They look at the woeful alternatives presented by the opposing party, and it's easy!

 

[Thunder Peel]

They look at the woeful alternatives presented by the opposing party, and it's easy!

What exactly do the Democrats have to offer? More food stamps, high taxes, regulation and laws? Poverty, sickness and debt haven't been wiped out---in fact, we now have 93 million Americans out of the workforce, 46 million on food stamps and millions of others living in poverty. How have those taxes and entitlement programs been successful? Local charities and churches here in my city have been out serving in the community, supporting orphan care, assisting the homeless and helping pregnant women who don't know where to turn. The bureaucrats and government officials aren't the ones helping these people---it's everyday citizens and Christians who are donating their time and money.

The Democrats praise these programs but have no real data to back up that any of them are actually effective, other than keeping people in a state of dependency instead of helping them stand on their own.

 

[tulc]

What exactly do the Democrats have to offer? More food stamps, high taxes, regulation and laws? Poverty, sickness and debt haven't been wiped out---in fact, we now have 93 million Americans out of the workforce, 46 million on food stamps and millions of others living in poverty. How have those taxes and entitlement programs been successful? Local charities and churches here in my city have been out serving in the community, supporting orphan care, assisting the homeless and helping pregnant women who don't know where to turn. The bureaucrats and government officials aren't the ones helping these people---it's everyday citizens and Christians who are donating their time and money.

The Democrats praise these programs but have no real data to back up that any of them are actually effective, other than keeping people in a state of dependency instead of helping them stand on their own.

Sounds like you need to start a thread on "Why Christians should only vote for the Party I think they should!!" tm. I'd subscribe to that thread.
tulc(likes how this post manages to get almost all the Republican talking points in except Benghazi and gay marriage)

 

[Thunder Peel]

Sounds like you need to start a thread on "Why Christians should only vote for the Party I think they should!!" tm. I'd subscribe to that thread.
tulc(likes how this post manages to get almost all the Republican talking points in except Benghazi and gay marriage)

I never said they should vote Republican---only that Democrats make a greater mess. I'm not a fan of the current GOP but the modern Democrat Party is even worse. You're entitled to your opinion but you have yet to respond to one post of mine detailing what Democrats are doing that have significantly benefited the country or the downtrodden. Simply opposing Republicans isn't a valid argument.

 

[tulc]

I never said they should vote Republican---only that Democrats make a greater mess. I'm not a fan of the current GOP but the modern Democrat Party is even worse. You're entitled to your opinion but you have yet to respond to one post of mine detailing what Democrats are doing that have significantly benefited the country or the downtrodden. Simply opposing Republicans isn't a valid argument.

Was this the thread where people were supposed to explain why they vote differently from you? Because I thought this thread was about something else. I guess you could start another thread where people could explain why they vote different from you.
tulc(would subscribe to it)

 

[Thunder Peel]

Was this the thread where people were supposed to explain why they vote differently from you? Because I thought this thread was about something else. I guess you could start another thread where people could explain why they vote different from you.
tulc(would subscribe to it)

I don't vote Democrat---you do. Do you care to support why or do you intend to keep dodging the question?

My question is the same as the OP's: what biblical reasons can you give for supporting the Democrats?

 

[RedPonyDriver]

My question is the same as the OP's: what biblical reasons can you give for supporting the Democrats?

Matthew 25:31-46

 

[tulc]

I don't vote Democrat---you do. Do you care to support why or do you intend to keep dodging the question?

My question is the same as the OP's: what biblical reasons can you give for supporting the Democrats?

uhmmm...posts #11 #27 #163 #183.
tulc(just sayn')

 

[dogs4thewin]

Matthew 25:31-46

Nations cannot go to Heaven or Hell. Therefore that has very little bearing plus we do not live in a country where we have a Christian government thank goodness that has been tried and DID NOT work.

 

[greenguzzi]

Nations cannot go to Heaven or Hell. Therefore that has very little bearing plus we do not live in a country where we have a Christian government thank goodness that has been tried and DID NOT work.

Using that logic, a party's or a government's policies on abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, and even murder also have very little bearing.

Companies are also not going to "heaven or hell", but that doesn't abrogate my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that the company I work for doesn't act against the will of God (Matt 25:31-46 for example).

One could also use your logic to say that churches don't go to heaven or hell, so the individual members of a congregation are not responsible for the way a church as a whole behaves.

Your argument is fallacious.

A government is made up of individual humans, and each is to some extent responsible for its actions. In a democracy each voter is a participant in government, so when we vote we need to do so with Matthew 25: 31-46 in mind. A good government should do the will of the people. We don't stop being Christians when we enter the voting booth; God will still hold us accountable.

PS: The idea of a "Christian" government is ridiculous. It is also irrelevant to this discussion.

 

[RDKirk]

Using that logic, a party's or a government's policies on abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, and even murder also have very little bearing.

Companies are also not going to "heaven or hell", but that doesn't abrogate my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that the company I work for doesn't act against the will of God (Matt 25:31-46 for example).

I don't see how you get the meaning from that passage that Christ is going to hold the individual responsible for the acts of the collective.

When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.

All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

Christ pulls before Him all the nations (no nation will be omitted) but makes His separation by individuals (not by "nations").

I'd point out, too, that the Greek ethnos often translated as "nations" does not mean the same thing as we have meant by "nation" since the Treaty of Westphalia. As we can see by the word ethnos itself, it is best understood as "ethnic group" rather than as lines drawn on a political map (as though God had any respect for the lines men have drawn on political maps).

I don't see any indication that God holds individual members responsible for the sins of their leaders or the collective, and it's sure not in Matthew--unless, perhaps, those individual members stand themselves fully behind what the collective is doing and say "Yea!" to it.

 

[dogs4thewin]

Using that logic, a party's or a government's policies on abortion, same sex marriage, euthanasia, and even murder also have very little bearing.

Companies are also not going to "heaven or hell", but that doesn't abrogate my responsibility to do all I can to ensure that the company I work for doesn't act against the will of God (Matt 25:31-46 for example).

One could also use your logic to say that churches don't go to heaven or hell, so the individual members of a congregation are not responsible for the way a church as a whole behaves.

Your argument is fallacious.

A government is made up of individual humans, and each is to some extent responsible for its actions. In a democracy each voter is a participant in government, so when we vote we need to do so with Matthew 25: 31-46 in mind. A good government should do the will of the people. We don't stop being Christians when we enter the voting booth; God will still hold us accountable.

PS: The idea of a "Christian" government is ridiculous. It is also irrelevant to this discussion.

but the point is that we PERSONALLY help not rely on the government to do it for us. If you are going to use the government do so close to the people not on a federal or state level.

 

[greenguzzi]

I don't see how you get the meaning from that passage that Christ is going to hold the individual responsible for the acts of the collective.

What if that individual was the president or prime minister?
How about if he was a senator or senior minister?
What about a backbencher or junior minister? Would they be held accountable too?
I think they would to some extent.

So, what about a voter?

The individual voter may not be held totally accountable for what the collective does, but they are responsible for their vote.

So if you wilfully vote for a party that you know has policies that increase misery, ignore justice, and damages the environment, then you will be held accountable. Maybe not for the actions of the collective, but certainly for your ill considered vote.

And not voting doesn't get you off the hook, unless you really believe that there is no one that you could not vote for with a clear conscience. But you need to really think this through. You also need to recognise that it's a very personal decision.

 

[greenguzzi]

but the point is that we PERSONALLY help not rely on the government to do it for us.

It's not a binary decision. We should do both.
Also we are not relying on the government to do it for us, we are attempting to direct the government to do it.
No point praying "Your will be done on Earth as in Heaven" and then not follow it up with action. Which includes voting along the same lines as our prayer.

If we didn't live in a democracy, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we do, so whether we like it or not we are participants in government. God will hold us accountable for our vote.

 

[RDKirk]

What if that individual was the president or prime minister?
How about if he was a senator or senior minister?
What about a backbencher or junior minister? Would they be held accountable too?
I think they would to some extent.

So, what about a voter?

The individual voter may not be held totally accountable for what the collective does, but they are responsible for their vote.

So if you wilfully vote for a party that you know has policies that increase misery, ignore justice, and damages the environment, then you will be held accountable. Maybe not for the actions of the collective, but certainly for your ill considered vote.

And not voting doesn't get you off the hook, unless you really believe that there is no one that you could not vote for with a clear conscience. But you need to really think this through. You also need to recognise that it's a very personal decision.

Inasmuch as no earthly government is Christ's government, and every government operates out of sin and will sin, then you're saying all choices, including refusing to choose, leaves each individual guilty of the actions of his government.

Unless...we make sure to vote the candidate that will certainly lose. Jill Stein, anyone?

 

[RDKirk]

It's not a binary decision. We should do both.
Also we are not relying on the government to do it for us, we are attempting to direct the government to do it.
No point praying "Your will be done on Earth as in Heaven" and then not follow it up with action. Which includes voting along the same lines as our prayer.

If we didn't live in a democracy, then it wouldn't be an issue. But we do, so whether we like it or not we are participants in government. God will hold us accountable for our vote.

Sounds like you're saying if we want to go to heaven we must end democracy so we won't be held accountable to God for the actions of the government.

 

[greenguzzi]

Inasmuch as no earthly government is Christ's government, and every government operates out of sin and will sin, then you're saying all choices, including refusing to choose, leaves each individual guilty of the actions of his government.

Unless...we make sure to vote the candidate that will certainly lose. Jill Stein, anyone?

No. I'm just saying that the decision requires much prayer and thought, and that's it's not as straightforward as just voting for the party that claims simple "christian" morality.

FWIW: Based on your posts I gather that you have chosen not to vote, and have based that decision on prayer and scripture. If so then that seems a pretty good example of what I believe is the right approach.
(My apologies if I have misunderstood.)

 

[greenguzzi]

Sounds like you're saying if we want to go to heaven we must end democracy so we won't be held accountable to God for the actions of the government.

I'm probably guilty of using hyperbole to make my point. I don't believe that anyone will lose their salvation based on their vote. I just want to challenge the idea that Christians should naturally vote for the Republican Party (or whatever one's country's equivalent is).

End democracy?
As Winton Churchill is accredited as saying:
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

 

[greenguzzi]

If you are going to use the government do so close to the people not on a federal or state level.

I'm very tempted to agree with you here. But I think for this to be effective we would need to change the current power landscape first. There are too many immoral greedy people who have excessive power at the federal level.

Until this is rectified those of us who want justice and good stewardship should vote - at the highest level - for policies that might restrict and oppose this imbalance of power.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I'm very tempted to agree with you here. But I think for this to be effective we would need to change the current power landscape first. There are too many immoral greedy people who have excessive power at the federal level.

Until this is rectified those of us who want justice and good stewardship should vote - at the highest level - for policies that might restrict and oppose this imbalance of power.

There is a difference in helping and emabling, This is why it is important to have it close to the people; because it is more likely for people to know who is who. In a perfect world where everyone was willing to pull his or her own weight this would not be issue. However, we do not live in such a world.