how does devout christians justify voting Democrat?

Hetta

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yes didn't say republicans..don't do these things..just meaning for conservative, more morals, they were just mere examples..life was better for our kids growing up and families when most folks were on the same page..and in their natural states...no one is perfect...
People have never ever all been on the same page. Not from the very beginning of time.
main question was how do those who align with democrat..democrats being okay for abortion aka killing babies, okay for people to be gay, change their sex...how are they christian too? granted I have voted democrat b4.. just don't consider myself one...
If you know any democrats, or anyone else, who is killing babies you need to call the cops. One major rule on this forum (look it up) is that you don't get to designate people you don't agree with as being non-Christian, just so you know. You also aren't God and do not see people's hearts nor their lives. From my experience, a vast majority of atheists and otherwise non-Christians live much more morally than many Christians, Democrat or non-Democrat.
 
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ml5363

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People have never ever all been on the same page. Not from the very beginning of time.
If you know any democrats, or anyone else, who is killing babies you need to call the cops. One major rule on this forum (look it up) is that you don't get to designate people you don't agree with as being non-Christian, just so you know. You also aren't God and do not see people's hearts nor their lives. From my experience, a vast majority of atheists and otherwise non-Christians live much more morally than many Christians, Democrat or non-Democrat.


i never said that i didnt agree with them..i was actually curious about their thought process...nor was I calling folks a liar about being christian..never said i was god...was just curious...
 
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tulc

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yes didn't say republicans..don't do these things..just meaning for conservative, more morals, they were just mere examples..life was better for our kids growing up and families when most folks were on the same page..and in their natural states...no one is perfect...

main question was how do those who align with democrat..democrats being okay for abortion aka killing babies, okay for people to be gay, change their sex...how are they christian too? granted I have voted democrat b4.. just don't consider myself one...

Perhaps some people see theres more to being a Democrat then toeing the line as far as "Democrat policies" go? When I was a Republican I watched as the Republican Party would ring the "abortion bell" to get people to support things like cuts for education and cuts for helping poor people get food and support. They payed (and still do) lip service to being "pro-life" but in the end they were "anti-abortion" not "pro-life". :wave:
tulc(has never regretted leaving the Republican Party, even more so this election cycle) ;)
 
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greenguzzi

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You realize, if you are attempting "that very thing" you are doing to others what you don't want done to you. You are using government to get what you want through oppression of others, and using government as a tool to do your dirty work for you.
Um, no.
Governments overreach when they dictate and enforce "moral" behaviour. At the same time as government is overreaching in this area, they are failing to correct the unjust and neglectful consequences of unbridled capitalism. Overreaching legislation of behaviour by government and under-regulated capitalism are examples of misplaced and undeserved power. The removal of illegitimate and arbitrary power (both corporate and government) is not oppression, it's the overcoming of oppression.

There is a distinction between enforcing one's morality on someone, and enforcing a level playing field. Unless of course one's morality is "every man for himself", which I reject because this is not what Christ taught, and also because it is ultimately destructive for everyone.
 
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HannahT

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Do you think it's God's plan that you have to suffer from a tooth ache? Theoretically, God gave us dentists for that purpose.

He gave us this country - and this world as well. You stated that, ' Voting seems to undermine the idea that God is in control." Is he not in control of the tooth ache too?

If we can participate in going to doctor's we can surely participate in the vote without undermining God. No one can undermine him, and so it seems strange that a statement can even be made.
 
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2consider

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I see I was right. You not only don't quite grasp "Libertarian Principles", you also seem pretty unclear on Christian ones also. :sorry: Here's a simple rule of thumb when you want to discuss "Libertarian Principles": you don't get to decide what other libertarians can/can't believe. :wave:
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out) :)
Feel free to correct any point you think is in error. Providing you can.
 
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2consider

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He gave us this country - and this world as well. You stated that, ' Voting seems to undermine the idea that God is in control." Is he not in control of the tooth ache too?

If we can participate in going to doctor's we can surely participate in the vote without undermining God. No one can undermine him, and so it seems strange that a statement can even be made.
You can't undermine God's plan is my entire point! Voting isn't going to change God's plan. A plan that has been laid out very precisely. Voting might serve the purpose of giving us the illusion that we can make a difference, but you can't.

Government is the creation of man, God even said to the Israelites, you'd be better off trusting me than making David your king.

A doctor can ease the suffering, but in the end, we all meet the same fate. At best, voting can ease the pain, make us feel like we're making a difference and giving us a voice, but that's about it. It's God's desire that no man suffer, so maybe that's why he gave us medical knowledge to ease the suffering. In the end though, we all meet the same fate.

Toothaches happen because they have to happen. But you don't have to suffer. Go to the dentist. The world is going to ____, but you don't have to suffer. Go to Jesus. God isn't going to take away toothaches, and he's not going to change his plan for the world. You can ease the pain of all this better by accepting that God is in control than you can by voting for some power mad corrupt human.

In the long run, no doctor can prevent you from dying. In the long run, voting won't save the country or the world.

God has a plan for all of mankind, he's going to accomplish it no matter who you vote for. Voting for a Christian then simply becomes an effort to publicly stand for righteousness. But then you have another problem, what is righteous in God's view?
 
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tulc

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Feel free to correct any point you think is in error. Providing you can.

Well from what I understand "Libertarianism" covers a pretty broad spectrum of belief from far left to far right and most things in between, for instance in post #174:
Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron.
you demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the history of Libertarianism, like this:
Libertarian came to mean an advocate or defender of liberty, especially in the political and social spheres, as early as 1796, when the London Packet printed on 12 February: "Lately marched out of the Prison at Bristol, 450 of the French Libertarians."[15] The word was again used in a political sense in 1802, in a short piece critiquing a poem by "the author of Gebir", and has since been used with this meaning.[16][17][18]

The use of the word libertarian to describe a new set of political positions has been traced to the French cognate, libertaire, coined in a scathing letter French libertarian communist Joseph Déjacque wrote to mutualist Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857, castigating him for his sexist political views.[19][20] Déjacque also used the term for his anarchist publication Le Libertaire: Journal du Mouvement Social, which was printed from 9 June 1858 to 4 February 1861 in New York City.[21][22] In the mid-1890s, Sébastien Faure began publishing a new Le Libertaire while France's Third Republic enacted the lois scélérates ("villainous laws"), which banned anarchist publications in France. Libertarianism has frequently been used as a synonym for anarchism since this time.[23][24][25]
Although the word libertarian continues to be widely used to refer to socialists internationally, its meaning in the United States has deviated from its political origins.[26][27] Libertarianism in the United States has been described as conservative on economic issues and liberal on personal freedom[28] (for common meanings of conservative and liberal in the United States); it is also often associated with a foreign policy of non-interventionism.[29][30] Since the resurgence of neoliberalism in the 1970s, free-market capitalist libertarianism has spread beyond North America via think tanks and political parties.[31]
The idea that libertarianism only means what modern Americans mean just demonstrates you've only scratched the surface of what libertarianism means. Here's a good place to start if you're actually interested in learning about what you claim is what you believe so strongly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism :wave:
tulc(needs some more coffee) :sigh:
 
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2consider

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Um, no.
Governments overreach when they dictate and enforce "moral" behaviour. At the same time as government is overreaching in this area, they are failing to correct the unjust and neglectful consequences of unbridled capitalism. Overreaching legislation of behaviour by government and under-regulated capitalism are examples of misplaced and undeserved power. The removal of illegitimate and arbitrary power (both corporate and government) is not oppression, it's the overcoming of oppression.

There is a distinction between enforcing one's morality on someone, and enforcing a level playing field. Unless of course one's morality is "every man for himself", which I reject because this is not what Christ taught, and also because it is ultimately destructive for everyone.
Is there any law that doesn't enforce moral behavior? Isn't murder against the law because it's immoral to kill? Isn't theft against the law because it's immoral to steal? There is no way to create a level playing field without oppressing someone. Leveling the playing field often lowers the standard. There are two ways to level the playing field. Make the lower the standard for the best, or lift the lowest up. Capitalism and only capitalism allows the lowest among us to rise to whatever we desire.

The big lie is that we all have to share one pie. That's nonsense, we are free to make our own pie. There's more wealth now than ever. Sixty years ago, there wasn't a trillion dollars on the entire earth. Now we spend about 2 1/3 trillion every year in America alone. Capitalism created that money. Some schlepp like Famous Amos, or the latest computer geek, can create wealth by creating something.

Capitalism cannot exist if it isn't unbridled. When capitalism becomes restricted, it becomes fascism, or socialism or communism. When the government allows for private ownership of commerce, but dictates it's operation, that is fascism. When industry is owned by government, it's communism.

The thing is, capitalism is a concept, an abstract, it cannot be good or bad, it's how it's used. Capitalists can be bad, and so we make laws that punish capitalists if they immorally steal or break laws that infringe on other people's rights as described before.

Socialism simply takes capitalism and restricts it to government. To think that would be better would be to conclude that politicians are more honest than other individuals, such as bankers or investors or even you. You can become as rich as you want under capitalism.

Socialism confines power to an even smaller group of people, government. Incidentally, government has the power to use force against you, private industry does not.
 
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2consider

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Well from what I understand "Libertarianism" covers a pretty broad spectrum of belief from far left to far right and most things in between, for instance in post #174:
you demonstrated a lack of knowledge about the history of Libertarianism, like this:
The idea that libertarianism only means what modern Americans mean just demonstrates you've only scratched the surface of what libertarianism means. Here's a good place to start if you're actually interested in learning about what you claim is what you believe so strongly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism :wave:
tulc(needs some more coffee) :sigh:
I've been a Libertarian for more than twenty years. I know what it is. Still waiting for you to correct any errors in my position. Telling me to read a Wiki entry, that I have already read is not getting us anywhere.

You might also consider that I'm referring to the American Political party. Remember the topic is what party would Jesus most adhere to. Try to stay on topic.
 
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2consider

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Um, no.
Governments overreach when they dictate and enforce "moral" behaviour. At the same time as government is overreaching in this area, they are failing to correct the unjust and neglectful consequences of unbridled capitalism. Overreaching legislation of behaviour by government and under-regulated capitalism are examples of misplaced and undeserved power. The removal of illegitimate and arbitrary power (both corporate and government) is not oppression, it's the overcoming of oppression.

There is a distinction between enforcing one's morality on someone, and enforcing a level playing field. Unless of course one's morality is "every man for himself", which I reject because this is not what Christ taught, and also because it is ultimately destructive for everyone.
Why do you claim that the libertarian view is every man for himself? Is that how you live your life, or do you help others?

I will assume your answer is, you help others since you claim that you don't support every man for himself. If in fact you do help other people, but you believe the libertarian view is every man for himself, then we must conclude that you are conceited. Most people are willing to help others, not just you!

To think that under a libertarian system people won't help other people is asinine. People generally are able to work together. When people fall, other people help them up. As it stands now, I have some choice on who I help and what help I will give them. Personally, I don't want to help some people. Teach a man to fish, he'll eat for a lifetime. Give a man a fish and he'll be back tomorrow with all his cousins asking for more fish. That's not helping people in my view, it's enabling a worthless lifestyle. If you refuse to give the man a fish, and instead offer to teach him to fish, eventually, when he gets hungry enough, he'll come asking to be taught to fish.. Then you have helped that person feel good about themselves and helped produce a productive citizen.

The problem is, socialist policies produce a citizenry of people unwilling and unable to become productive citizens. It produces a bunch of needy adults, which perpetuates more of the same. We now have families that have existed solely on handouts for several generations.

Of course, what does government profess to exist for? Helping people. Government doesn't want self sufficient people. They want needy people who will continue to surrender their freedom for security. Eventually, government runs every aspect of our lives. Then you have the level playing field you want.

There are only four truly capitalist nations on earth. China, Cuba, Vietnam, and Laos. The playing is certainly level in those places, no one has squat, and there is no field to play on.
 
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tulc

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I've been a Libertarian for more than twenty years. I know what it is. Still waiting for you to correct any errors in my position. Telling me to read a Wiki entry, that I have already read is not getting us anywhere.

You might also consider that I'm referring to the American Political party. Remember the topic is what party would Jesus most adhere to. Try to stay on topic.

Ahhh! You didn't say you were talking about the American version of Libertarian, you simply said Libertarian, sorry I thought you were talking about all of libertarians not just a small part of it. I did point out your statement
Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron.
wasn't true considering everywhere but here in the US Libertarian has been considered short hand for socialist for most of it's history. I could also point out that America doesn't "own" the meaning of libertarian so they don't get to decide who can/can't be considered Libertarian. :wave:
tulc(was just correcting an error that was being made in a subject he didn't bring up in the first place) :)
 
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2consider

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Ahhh! You didn't say you were talking about the American version of Libertarian, you simply said Libertarian, sorry I thought you were talking about all of libertarians not just a small part of it. I did point out your statement
wasn't true considering everywhere but here in the US Libertarian has been considered short hand for socialist for most of it's history. I could also point out that America doesn't "own" the meaning of libertarian so they don't get to decide who can/can't be considered Libertarian. :wave:
tulc(was just correcting an error that was being made in a subject he didn't bring up in the first place) :)
I don't know why you didn't know I was talking about the libertarian political party, it should have been obvious when I stated what party would Jesus belong to.

In your post the description is in line with what I said Libertarianism is.
From that post....

Libertarian came to mean an advocate or defender of liberty. Hundreds of years ago, and it still means that.

That's exactly what I said Libertarianism is. Libertarian is based on the idea of liberty.

One cannot be socialist and libertarian. Consider social security, it's a socialist concept. Turn your retirement over to the government. That means the government controls your retirement. You cannot have liberty and live with aspects of your life controlled by government. Social Security is an oppressive government restriction. You and I, assuming you live in America, are forced to participate in Social Security. Explain how a person can enjoy liberty while at the same time be forced into doing something against their will.

Not only does Social Security limit the liberty of the person that participates by restricting their retirement, it's also oppressive because people that never pay a dime into the system can still receive benefits. That means, people who are paying to it for their retirement are having their money taken and redistributed to people that don't pay into it. In effect, the money of every person paying into it is being stolen from them and given to someone else, greatly diminishing the benefit for those that pay into it.

So your argument is a non-starter from the get go.
 
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greenguzzi

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Why do you claim that the libertarian view is every man for himself? Is that how you live your life, or do you help others?
I never said that libertarians were "every man for himself", I'm a libertarian who believes in justice and stewardship, so why would I say that? I was referring to unfettered capitalism. if you re-read my words you will see that I said this in the context of "enforcing a level playing field", by which I meant the necessary constraints on capitalism. My point was that only a person who holds the low morality of "every man for himself" would not want a level playing field. When I wrote "every man for himself" I didn't intend to imply anything about people helping - or not helping - others. I meant it in the sense of "each person should do what is best for themselves" and "Each individual puts their own interests foremost". Which is what powers capitalism, and which I believe is not an appropriate behaviour or philosophy for a Christian.

The level playing field isn't about helping others, it's about others not needing help in the first place.

The problem is, socialist policies produce a citizenry of people unwilling and unable to become productive citizens.
You clearly have no idea what socialism is.

Libertarian Socialist is an oxymoron.
Only if you don't understand what a "libertarian" is, or what a "socialist" is, or possibly both.

A libertarian is someone who is profoundly suspicious of hierarchies unless there is some intrinsic merit in them. Also, as @tulc has already pointed out, historically is left-wing.

A socialist is someone who believes that those who create the wealth should control the wealth. (Traditionally expressed as "the workers should control the means of production", but the principle can be applied much broader.)

So a Libertarian Socialist is someone who believes that the mechanism of wealth creation should be under the control of the wealth creators, in an environment void of any unnecessary hierarchical structures. Nothing paradoxical about that. There is no oxymoron.
I've been a Libertarian for more than twenty years. I know what it is.
I doubt that. I suspect that you have been an Ultra-Conservative Libertarian, aka US Libertarian, for more than twenty years. US Libertarians have twisted the word "libertarian" and made it almost the exact opposite of what it means elsewhere. Many in the US still use the word correctly, just not those who took the name for their party.
You might also consider that I'm referring to the American Political party. Remember the topic is what party would Jesus most adhere to.
Despite the topic of the thread, this side discussion was about "libertarian principles". I think it only reasonable to assume that we were talking about the correct usage of the word.

Hey, I'm more than happy for the Americans to keep the word "Libertarian" if they really want to. But this means that when the rest of us want to use the word we have to say "libertarian socialists" just to be clear. But you then saying that it's an oxymoron when we do correctly use the word is really beyond the pale.

Is there any law that doesn't enforce moral behavior? Isn't murder against the law because it's immoral to kill? Isn't theft against the law because it's immoral to steal? There is no way to create a level playing field without oppressing someone. Leveling the playing field often lowers the standard. There are two ways to level the playing field. Make the lower the standard for the best, or lift the lowest up.
Obviously laws against murder and theft aren't overreaching, so are clearly not what I was referring to. Probably a good example of overreaching is banning gay marriage. Regardless of my personal opinions about gay marriage, I don't believe it's the government's role to ban it. If that's too controversial, then another example is the compulsory wearing of motorcycle helmets. If this wasn't law, I would still wear my helmet almost every time I ride, but I don't believe it's the role of the government to compel us to do it.

I don't know if you did it intentionally, but you completely misconstrued what I meant by "levelling the playing field".
This phrase has nothing to do with standards, or "lifting the lowest up". It has to do with fairness; that all play by the same rules. Capitalism, especially the unfettered laissez-faire capitalism that you seem to prefer, is most unfair all the way to its heart. One thing that US Libertarians seem to conveniently ignore, is that the economic system that they live in is intrinsically flawed. If capitalism was not so deeply unfair, then US Libertarians might be on to a good thing. But because capitalism is flawed it needs larger-than-ideal government to attempt to keep it in check.

Capitalism and only capitalism allows the lowest among us to rise to whatever we desire.
Wow! That reveals so much about where your mind is at. There is so much wrong with that statement that I don't know where to begin. Maybe I'll make it the topic of another post.

Capitalism created that money.
No it didn't. Neither capitalism nor socialism can create wealth. Wealth is created by people doing things (manufacturing, designing, repairing, inventing). People do these things under socialism, communism, capitalism, or whatever. The question is under what political and economic systems is this wealth best distributed. (Hint: Not laissez-faire capitalism.)

Capitalism cannot exist if it isn't unbridled. When capitalism becomes restricted, it becomes fascism, or socialism or communism. When the government allows for private ownership of commerce, but dictates it's operation, that is fascism. When industry is owned by government, it's communism.

The thing is, capitalism is a concept, an abstract, it cannot be good or bad, it's how it's used. Capitalists can be bad, and so we make laws that punish capitalists if they immorally steal or break laws that infringe on other people's rights as described before.

Socialism simply takes capitalism and restricts it to government. To think that would be better would be to conclude that politicians are more honest than other individuals, such as bankers or investors or even you. You can become as rich as you want under capitalism.
You don't seem to understand what any of these things are.
For example: Socialism is about who controls the means of production, it has nothing to do with the role of the government. What you are describing is authoritarian socialism, but it's the "authoritarian" part that's the problem, not the "socialism" part.

Socialism confines power to an even smaller group of people, government.
If you think that, then again: You don't know what socialism is.

Incidentally, government has the power to use force against you, private industry does not.
Actually under the TPP and NAFTA, private industry can use force against workers and consumers, and even against governments. These agreements are examples of capitalists getting control of governments, instead of the other way around. These agreements are examples of what can happen if capitalism isn't kept under control.

And finally:
Consider social security, it's a socialist concept.
No it isn't! It never has been!

No wonder you think that "libertarian socialist" is an oxymoron; you repeatedly show that you really don't know what socialism is. Maybe you are confusing it with social democracy? Just a guess.
 
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tulc

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I don't know why you didn't know I was talking about the libertarian political party, it should have been obvious when I stated what party would Jesus belong to.

In your post the description is in line with what I said Libertarianism is.
From that post....

Libertarian came to mean an advocate or defender of liberty. Hundreds of years ago, and it still means that.

That's exactly what I said Libertarianism is. Libertarian is based on the idea of liberty.

One cannot be socialist and libertarian. Consider social security, it's a socialist concept. Turn your retirement over to the government. That means the government controls your retirement. You cannot have liberty and live with aspects of your life controlled by government. Social Security is an oppressive government restriction. You and I, assuming you live in America, are forced to participate in Social Security. Explain how a person can enjoy liberty while at the same time be forced into doing something against their will.

Not only does Social Security limit the liberty of the person that participates by restricting their retirement, it's also oppressive because people that never pay a dime into the system can still receive benefits. That means, people who are paying to it for their retirement are having their money taken and redistributed to people that don't pay into it. In effect, the money of every person paying into it is being stolen from them and given to someone else, greatly diminishing the benefit for those that pay into it.

So your argument is a non-starter from the get go.

It's cute that you still think you can define who can or can't be a "Libertarian" by what you think it means and just ignore anything you don't agree with. :D
tulc(thought we were going to stay on topic from now on?) :sorry:
 
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aieyiamfu

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Repub are usually against abortion, transgendered gay,multiple spouse, child out of wedlock , etc
The thing I don't get about republican opposition to abortion (not that abortion is more than a talking point for them, political grandstanding at best) is why they do not do somthing to discourage it, instead they promote programs that make it hard for many of the mothers who choose abortion to choose birth. And if you are against out of wedlock birth and abortion that really puts some people in a pickle.
 
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aieyiamfu

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*sigh* some of you need to decide if you want religious freedom or not. the only way to achieve that is through a secular government that will ensure no one religion/sect is making all the rules.
Most people who refer to religious freedom mean freedom to practice their religion and to marginalize other religions or those who choose no religion. For this a "christian" government is needed.
 
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aieyiamfu

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Like I said, the same question has been asked about Republicans: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-can-catholics-vote-for-trump.7937384/

Trump is twice divorced. That's wrong according to the Bible too. He's changed his position on abortion, so who knows. Isn't Arnold Schwarzenegger a Republican? Didn't he have a child out of wedlock? They might say they're against all that to appeal to voters but sometimes their actions don't match up.
Facts really get in the way of an irrational argument you know.
 
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