Pre-Trib Only High rapture watch?

[mndgn.j]

All Gentile Christians are killed in this persecution though. It says in Revelation 20:4, Rev 13:7,
Rev 16:6, Rev 6:11. If there is no one left alive, and His wrath partially is a vengeance (esp. where water is changed to blood to make the people drink it because this) then who exactly is God saving from His wrath if everyone is dead?

It is logically necessary that the faithful in the Gentile church are Raptured away and are speared from that and His wrath.

I read revelations last night and yeah its chilling to see that. it all comes together when you read and interpret the bible literally and not a figurative work that children wouldn't be able to understand.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

All Gentile Christians are killed in this persecution though. It says in Revelation 20:4, Rev 13:7,
Rev 16:6, Rev 6:11. If there is no one left alive, and His wrath partially is a vengeance (esp. where water is changed to blood to make the people drink it because this) then who exactly is God saving from His wrath if everyone is dead?

It is logically necessary that the faithful in the Gentile church are Raptured away and are speared from that and His wrath.

That is a very particular reading of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Were the Thessalonians even Jewish?

 

[Juan777]

That is a very particular reading of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Were the Thessalonians even Jewish?

I dont think that specific chapter has anything to do with Revelation events and is talking about the persecution under the Roman Empire and apostate Jews who rejected Jesus. Thess is not Revelation. It has some isolated chapters and verses that allude to that time as well as give insights on their mindsets but other than that it is an epistle directed at the church both historically and currently. Indeed persecutions are happening but not on the scale or severity as prohesied in Revelation.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

I dont think that specific chapter has anything to do with Revelation events and is talking about the persecution under the Roman Empire and apostate Jews who rejected Jesus. Thess is not Revelation. It has some isolated chapters and verses that allude to that time as well as give insights on their mindsets but other than that it is an epistle directed at the church both historically and currently. Indeed persecutions are happening but not on the scale or severity as prohesied in Revelation.

Those verses talk about the Lord's return which is why I say that.

 

[Juan777]

Those verses talk about the Lord's return which is why I say that.

They do? I never hear that chapter referenced in other posts about the subject. Can you explain why you believe this is talking about the Lord's return?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

They do? I never hear that chapter referenced in other posts about the subject. Can you explain why you believe this is talking about the Lord's return?

and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire

 

[Juan777]

@Jesse Dornfeld,

Yes, but isn't this what happened with Stephen? He told the Sanhedrin what he saw. That was his moment of affliction. Its not uncommon for Christians that are persecuted to have a really nice revelation of Jesus like that. Many martyrs deaths are pleasant ones because they get the red-carpet treatment to glory land. The Holy Spirit provides strength, comfort and the grace to endure the persecution and you don't have the stubborn flesh getting in the way and ruining things in moments like that.

You do agree there was persecution in the place where this epistle was sent to and it was intended to comfort that church?

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

@Jesse Dornfeld,

Yes, but isn't this what happened with Stephen? He told the Sanhedrin what he saw. That was his moment of affliction. Its not uncommon for Christians that are persecuted to have a really nice revelation of Jesus like that. Many martyrs deaths are pleasant ones because they get the red-carpet treatment to glory land. The Holy Spirit provides strength, comfort and the grace to endure the persecution and you don't have the stubborn flesh getting in the way and ruining things in moments like that.

How do you know that is what is going on in that verse? Do you have any direct evidence for that?

 

[Juan777]

How do you know that is what is going on in that verse? Do you have any direct evidence for that?

Yes, the epistle is a letter that's written to a church in Asia Minor (a branch of the ancient Roman Empire, and then later the Byzantine Empire which succeeded the Roman Empire) where is the city Thessaloniki. It's a real letter sent to a real place. We all have google and can research the facts and history of that place and how Christians were treated there (ie as in pretty much anywhere in the Roman Empire) during that time.

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Yes, the epistle is a letter that's written to a church in Asia Minor (a branch of the ancient Roman Empire, and then later the Byzantine Empire which succeeded the Roman Empire) where is the city Thessaloniki. It's a real letter sent to a real place. We all have google and can research the facts and history of that place and how Christians were treated there (ie as in pretty much anywhere in the Roman Empire) during that time.

Why do you think Paul was NOT speaking about the second coming?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I do not see anywhere in scripture saying Jesus returns and then returns again. I do not see scripture teaching a second and then the third return.

I agree. Some reason that the "rapture" is not a true "coming." Others state that there is a "resurrection" part A and "resurrection" part B.

 

[Juan777]

Why do you think Paul was NOT speaking about the second coming?

Because its not mentioned anywhere in that chapter. It literally reads that he is comforting the people in Thessaloniki who are being persecuted and suffering tribulation that is caused by the Jews who are rejecting their message and attacking them (ie you can see accounts of this in the book of Acts) and by the pagans who don't understand them and think they are trying to change their customs or defy their idol-gods, etc....

That tribulation has nothing at all to do with the Great Tribulation or the 7 Year Tribulation as alluded to in Daniel 9:27, in other parts of Revelation that repeat a 3.5 year (half-week) time-line. The time that Paul does start speaking about Christian who are worried they missed the rapture is (ie they died before the Rapture took place so they'll miss it) is addressed in 2 Thess 4:13. This is timeless in the sense it transcends the original time-line of the book. It says that those who die in Jesus before the Rapture will not miss the Rapture, but in fact, will be Raptured first before those who are alive within that nano-second. That part is just as valid now as it is back then and the time between then and now.

It is worth noting the people during that time believed that Jesus would be coming in their age and did not know that 2000 years or so would pass since that time, or there would be this type of world existing. Any insights that apply today have to look into their mindset and what they are expecting. However, this particular book does not go into too much detail and the revelation John had in Patmos is distinct from Paul's revelation because they both have different Ministries. John is more prophetic of the two and what he is writing in Revelation better parallels the book of Daniel. Therefore, the books of Thessalonians may have some solid insights that provide some missing pieces or missing details on the overall Pre-Trib narrative, but it's really just provides a piece of that puzzle.

 

[HARK!]

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF​

 

[Ligurian]

You believe God is going to raise you up in the sky for 7 years and you are having difficulty believing God can save us from His wrath in the Tribulation?

Is "from" the right word choice in Revelation 3:10?

ek = a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):--after, among, X are, at, betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

Revelation 3:10-11 Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the Earth.[11] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

peirasmos = a putting to proof (by experiment (of good), experience (of evil), solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication, adversity:--temptation, X try.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

 

[Ligurian]

That is a very particular reading of 2 Thessalonians 1:5-8. Were the Thessalonians even Jewish?

Not unless "the apostle to the gentiles (uncircumcision)" has no meaning.

 

[Ligurian]

All Gentile Christians are killed in this persecution though. It says in Revelation 20:4, Rev 13:7,
Rev 16:6, Rev 6:11.

Seems like gentile christians are already gone, in these verses... but then, like all prophecy, Revelation isn't strictly linear.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and patience of Ιησους Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Ιησους Christ.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the Earth?[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 15:2-4 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.[4] Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Ιησους, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Juan777]

Seems like gentile christians are already gone, in these verses... but then, like all prophecy, Revelation isn't strictly linear.

Revelation 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the Kingdom and patience of Ιησους Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Ιησους Christ.

Revelation 6:9-11 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the Earth?[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 15:2-4 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.[3] And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.[4] Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the Earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Ιησους, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

There will be people who get saved (or right with God) after the Rapture. You have Christians who thought they were saved but tragically missed the rapture, you have allot of youtube or content circulating around that anyone who is left behind after the rapture can access, and since the Rapture already happened, nobody is going to be as skeptical about the Rapture and that in and of itself can lead people to Jesus.

Apart from that you have the Two Witnesses and the 144, 000 Jews who will be a light to the world at large (although by in large most of the Gentile world will not understand them and hate them, those who are elect during that time will take heed and receive salvation).

So I really think allot of Gentile people will be saved, finally get right with God if they missed the Rapture, and the any video, post or message that is available after the Rapture (before they are taken down) will be a solid witness to those who want to hear the truth. At the end of the day, it's not the Antichrist and 666 and being beheaded to fear. It's the fact that people will receive salvation and none of that will matter because once your soul is saved, people can kill the body, but the soul belongs to God.

 

[Ligurian]

There will be people who get saved (or right with God) after the Rapture. You have Christians who thought they were saved but tragically missed the rapture, you have allot of youtube or content circulating around that anyone who is left behind after the rapture can access, and since the Rapture already happened, nobody is going to be as skeptical about the Rapture and that in and of itself can lead people to Jesus.

Apart from that you have the Two Witnesses and the 144, 000 Jews who will be a light to the world at large (although by in large most of the Gentile world will not understand them and hate them, those who are elect during that time will take heed and receive salvation).

So I really think allot of Gentile people will be saved, finally get right with God if they missed the Rapture, and the any video, post or message that is available after the Rapture (before they are taken down) will be a solid witness to those who want to hear the truth. At the end of the day, it's not the Antichrist and 666 and being beheaded to fear. It's the fact that people will receive salvation and none of that will matter because once your soul is saved, people can kill the body, but the soul belongs to God.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I believe the 144k are the two witnesses... the two candlesticks, two olive trees... the two houses of Jacob joined are the two witnesses. The House of Judah is the Jews, Ephraim/Joseph is the House of Israel. People saved after Revelation 11 will be the remnant of their enemies who saw them and gave glory to God.

 

[JulieB67]

that verse seems to be in regard to the second coming of jesus christ not regarding the rapture of the church these are two very different events.

Have you ever read past 1st Thes 4? The subject doesn't change. Everyone is so quick to post 4:17 as proving a rapture and never read past into 5 where the subject continues. There were no chapters in the manuscripts. These are letters. If you had read past 4 into chapter 5, you would see that Paul names the very event of 1st Thes 4:17 -the day of the Lord. That takes the mystery out of it. It's not a secret rapture. If you read all of the verses together to not lose context you would see that he only comes like a thief to those not watching for the signs and seasons. And if you had read further into 2nd Thess you would see that he had to tell them not to be confused or shaken in mind that the day of Christ was at hand (iminent) it wasn't. Certain events have to unfold. One being the son of perdition sitting on the throne proclaiming to be God. I used to believe in a pretrib rapture but it's not biblical. And tribulation and wrath or not the same thing.

Christ will return at the 7th trump and not a moment sooner. Many things will unfold before that happens, including a falling away/apostasy -meaning many will depart from the truth. We have to heed the warnings by both Christ and Paul about deception. And it it happens to one generation, they have to have full gospel armour on and be able to stand, having done all to stand. (in that evil day) Christ states those that endure to the end, the same will be saved.

The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment

Part of Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was to address their confusion on "our gathering back to Christ". He states it will not happen....until certain things unfold. He said don't even be confused by his letter (1st Thess) The subject is when Christ returns. And if a pretrib rapture were possible Paul would have said something to them. They were waiting on the return of Christ as well like many are today so why would Paul bypass a pretrib rapture if it were true?? Why the warning? That's because it's not true. But people would rather believe a lie than accept the love of the truth.

The reason he was comforting people in 1st Thess 4 was because he was talking about their dead loved ones. That was the original subject.

In 2nd Thess why wouldn't Paul have stated during their confusion, don't worry Christians will be taken away? Instead he states don't be deceived by any means. Sadly that deception is off the charts even today after Christ and Paul, later John laying it all out there.

 

[com7fy8]

If I missed the rapture I wouldn't be mad because I accept Gods will for my life. If I am to live by some miracle then that's my fate. I would hope to live to do Gods will in my life because I really haven't done much for God. I'm a new Christian and unfortunately I have lived most of my Christian life in the flesh. My hope and trust is completely in Jesus Christ for my salvation. He is the author and finisher of my faith.

Trust God to change you so we are doing His will. Our failure does not decide what God is able to do.

What we need is to be ready for the Rapture > then, if we are still alive, we are ready. If we die while ready, God's word says we will rise before anyone in the Rapture who is still alive.

"the dead in Christ will rise first," after all, Paul says, right? > yes, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

So, if we die right we are ready to rise right . . . right?