What are the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture Position?

RedeemedtoManhood

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I am still studying and depending on the Holy Spirit for my position, whether it is Post-Wrath Post Tribulation or Pre-Wrath after Tribulation position.

Would you kindly state the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture position, please?

Thank you so very much!
 

RandyPNW

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The biggest weakness, in my opinion, of the Pre-Wrath position is its lack of historical basis. It is a purely modern construction, to avoid any perceived weakness of the Post-Wrath, Post-Trib position, which suggests that Christians must suffer every bit of the Reign of Antichrist up until the Return of Christ.

So, the weakness of Post-Trib, which has great historical standing, is this false notion that Christians suffer God's Wrath when they endure the Reign of Antichrist, as well as world conditions perceived as God's Judgment against the Antichrist. Obviously, God's Wrath presently rests upon all of the wicked, who actively oppose God's word in this age, and who ignore God's call upon their conscience. And that Wrath results in acts of Divine retribution, whether comprehensive or purely "warnings."

Some would say that all of the wars on earth are in some way related to God's Wrath. In some way God is punishing those who deserve it. But when the innocent suffer, or when the righteous suffer, in these wars, are these examples of God's People suffering God's Wrath?

I think not. Jesus warned his Disciples that they would see tribulation in this present age, and that whenever specific acts of Divine Wrath fall upon certain deserved entities they should "flee for the hills." Sometimes we are innocent casualties of problems in this world brought on generally by human sin--we are not being "punished" by God. Sometimes we are martyrs, God choosing to seal our testimony in our own suffering and death. Again, this is not our suffering "Divine Wrath," but rather, fulfilling our destiny.

In sum, I do not see Post-Wrath deliverance of the saints as a "weakness." The saints will always avoid the ultimate "Wrath of God," which is Eternal Punishment. And what the saints go through during the endtimes plays no role in that. It is a false charge against Postribulationism.

Probably the other "weaknesses" that non-Postrib believers see in the Postrib position is its inability to assert Imminency regarding Christ's Return, seemingly ignoring Jesus' charge to "always be ready." It includes the charge that Postribs have a predictable date of Christ's Return, as opposed to an "unknown date" that Jesus declared concerning His Coming.

Since I believe "Imminency" is being defined incorrectly, I do not take that charge seriously. Being ready at all times has to do with always being responsible in our lives, and not a matter of expecting Christ could come at any second! ;)

Furthermore, the 1260 days of Antichrist's Reign is not the full period counting down to Christ's Return. The book of Revelation does not say that Christ returns on the 1260ths day to destroy Antichrist on that day. On the contrary, the 2 Witnesses lay in the streets of Jerusalem for 4 more days past the 1260 days of Antichrist's Reign. And the mobilization to Armageddon, likely to take months, is an unknown period of time, unrecognized by the world as anything of eschatological value. It looks like a world war.

The 1260 days of Antichrist's Reign probably ends when the rest of the world stops acknowledging his supremacy over the rest of the world. This could be what causes the Battle of Armageddon. But this is pure guesswork on my part. I see no weaknesses that stand up to scrutiny with the Post-Wrath, Post-Trib position. It has historical credibility. Pretrib and Pre-Wrath are modern innovations.
 
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tranquil

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I am still studying and depending on the Holy Spirit for my position, whether it is Post-Wrath Post Tribulation or Pre-Wrath after Tribulation position.

Would you kindly state the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture position, please?

Thank you so very much!
There is no 'rapture', just being 'gathered'. It is especially illogical to say that one is 'raptured' when there is no longer any need for it (by their reckoning) (in the post tribulation scenario).

The problem lies in thinking that the only way one is protected is in a 'rapture' (as in Revelation 3:10).

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works,

Here in Rev 2:22, we see that it is people who actively join with Jezebel that are thrown into the great tribulation. No 'rapture' needed, yes?

Let's say, by joining with Jezebel one has to take an injection which happens to be poisonous, and then you survive while others did not.

Did Jesus protect you? Yes! Did you need to be 'raptured'? No!
 
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Clare73

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I am still studying and depending on the Holy Spirit for my position, whether it is Post-Wrath Post Tribulation or Pre-Wrath after Tribulation position.

Would you kindly state the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture position, please?

Thank you so very much!
This is what the NT presents regarding the rapture:

Jesus locates the resurrection in the last day (John 6:39).
Paul locates the resurrection with the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:16).
Jesus locates the rapture with the second coming (Matthew 24:39-41).
Jesus locates the second coming with the judgment of the sheep and goats at the end of time (Matthew 25:31-33)?

So in terms of the time of their occurrence, the rapture occurs at the end of time:

the last day (end of time) = resurrection = second coming = rapture = final judgment of sheep and goats (all mankind)

All else is personal interpretation of "prophetic riddles not spoken clearly" (Nu 12:8), subject to more than one interpretation, and in disagreement with the authoritative NT apostolic teaching above.
 
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Michu

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I think the biggest problem with taking post trib position is that you don't have the same type of urgency, you will either die or have to endure the great tribulation.

There's no point in really WATCHING as the time and signs will start to unravel for you at some point.

I'm thinking about The parable of the ten virgins Matthew 25:1-13
Five were foolish and didn't have enough oil for their lamps and when the cry rang out at midnight that the bridegroom was there, they had to go to purchase the oil. But as they were doing that the bridegroom had already arrived and the five wise virgins went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut. And as the five foolish virgins later arrived they cried out "Lord, Lord, open to us." and he responded "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

I've noticed something about many pre-tribbers, they long so much for the lord, true love, that they will always have that oil and watch. While the post tribbers might be aware of the full solar eclipse on monday and that they might have one eye on it, as it's has passed by they will get back to their business. While pre-tribbers continue to watch and watch.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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I am still studying and depending on the Holy Spirit for my position, whether it is Post-Wrath Post Tribulation or Pre-Wrath after Tribulation position.

Would you kindly state the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture position, please?

Thank you so very much!
Consider studying a no post or pre Millennial reign, just the last day, The Day of the Lord.
Blessings.
 
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RedeemedtoManhood

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Consider studying a no post or pre Millennial reign, just the last day, The Day of the Lord.
Blessings.
Thank you. What do you mean? I don't understand. Post-wrath Post Tribulation is actually historic premillenialism.
 
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RedeemedtoManhood

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I think the biggest problem with taking post trib position is that you don't have the same type of urgency, you will either die or have to endure the great tribulation.

There's no point in really WATCHING as the time and signs will start to unravel for you at some point.

I'm thinking about The parable of the ten virgins Matthew 25:1-13
Five were foolish and didn't have enough oil for their lamps and when the cry rang out at midnight that the bridegroom was there, they had to go to purchase the oil. But as they were doing that the bridegroom had already arrived and the five wise virgins went in with him to the wedding and the door was shut. And as the five foolish virgins later arrived they cried out "Lord, Lord, open to us." and he responded "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

I've noticed something about many pre-tribbers, they long so much for the lord, true love, that they will always have that oil and watch. While the post tribbers might be aware of the full solar eclipse on monday and that they might have one eye on it, as it's has passed by they will get back to their business. While pre-tribbers continue to watch and watch.
I truly understand where you are coming from.

However, may I respectfully disagree? I do not believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture, but I am constantly watching and letting the Holy Spirit empower me to live in holiness, constantly doing my best to turn away from sin.

Because I know deep in my heart that WE CAN DIE ANYTIME. I know, I know, if you are younger, the risk is less. But we still don't know, you know. There are a lot of young people who just die, in motor accidents. This 21 year old guy I know who just died because of heat stroke, too much summer heat.


So the Post Tribbers actually watch constantly as well, because they don't know when they will meet the Lord.
 
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Michu

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I truly understand where you are coming from.

However, may I respectfully disagree? I do not believe in Pre-tribulation Rapture, but I am constantly watching and letting the Holy Spirit empower me to live in holiness, constantly doing my best to turn away from sin.

Because I know deep in my heart that WE CAN DIE ANYTIME. I know, I know, if you are younger, the risk is less. But we still don't know, you know. There are a lot of young people who just die, in motor accidents. This 21 year old guy I know who just died because of heat stroke, too much summer heat.


So the Post Tribbers actually watch constantly as well, because they don't know when they will meet the Lord.
By all means, so let me try to be a little more specific, I'd say it's a love thing and not a matter of where you fall in in your understanding of the end times. I don't think any man has that truly mapped out, it's pretty vivid stuff especially the book of revelations.

I'm highlighting the urgency of once heart for that union to take place. I do see a difference there between the two camps and I just hope that life hasn't been so good to you that the kingdom of god can wait for you.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mark 10:25

You would want to believe that the pre tirbulation rapture is true if your love of god is true. That actually get me worried for those that bash the rapture and the believers thereof.
 
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RedeemedtoManhood

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By all means, so let me try to be a little more specific, I'd say it's a love thing and not a matter of where you fall in in your understanding of the end times. I don't think any man has that truly mapped out, it's pretty vivid stuff especially the book of revelations.

I'm highlighting the urgency of once heart for that union to take place. I do see a difference there between the two camps and I just hope that life hasn't been so good to you that the kingdom of god can wait for you.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Mark 10:25

You would want to believe that the pre tirbulation rapture is true if your love of god is true. That actually get me worried for those that bash the rapture and the believers thereof.
I hear you Sister... Fair enough... Thank you very much. May God bless you and me as well. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our Lord Yahushua HaMashiach Jesus Christ empower the two of us to continue living in complete SURRENDER and holiness to Him... Amein
 
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Michu

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I hear you Sister... Fair enough... Thank you very much. May God bless you and me as well. May the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, our Lord Yahushua HaMashiach Jesus Christ empower the two of us to continue living in complete SURRENDER and holiness to Him... Amein
*Brother ^_^, short for Michael.
You're welcome. Thank you and may god bless you too!
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Thank you. What do you mean? I don't understand. Post-wrath Post Tribulation is actually historic premillenialism.
It is the Amillennial/ partial Preterist position.

.
 
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Clare73

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I think the biggest problem with taking post trib position is that you don't have the same type of urgency, you will either die or have to endure the great tribulation.

There's no point in really WATCHING as the time and signs will start to unravel for you at some point.
Agreed. . .

Kee;ing in mind that Jesus said he was coming "soon," and the early Christians took that to mean in their lifetime.
Paul's statements regarding watching for his return are written from that perspective. We see Paul locating himself on earth waiting for Jesus ("we") when he returns (Php 4:5, Heb 10:15, 27, etc.).

Nevertheless, we see from apostolic teaching in post #2 (as distinct from prophetic riddles, Nu 12:8) that the rapture is at the end of time.

I'm thinking about The parable of the ten virgins Matthew 25:1-13
Five were foolish and didn't have enough oil for their lamps and when the cry rang out at midnight that the bridegroom was there, they had to go to purchase the oil. But as they were doing that the bridegroom had already arrived and the five wise virgins went in with him to the Heb 10:25, 37 wedding and the door was shut. And as the five foolish virgins later arrived they cried out "Lord, Lord, open to us." and he responded "Verily I say unto you, I know you not."

Matthew 25:13 "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh."

I've noticed something about many pre-tribbers, they long so much for the lord, true love, that they will always have that oil and watch. While the post tribbers might be aware of the full solar eclipse on monday and that they might have one eye on it, as it's has passed by they will get back to their business. While pre-tribbers continue to watch and watch.
Not quite seeing the value of watching for that which we know will not occur until the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Th 2:3).
Would that not then be the time to start watching?
 
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JulieB67

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There's no point in really WATCHING as the time and signs will start to unravel for you at some point.
I disagree with the watching point. What are pretribbers watching for? I don't want that to come off as rude but an honest question. They are focused imo on trying to be ready in a spiritual sense which yes, we should all be but forget that we need to be watching the signs that Christ laid out so that day doesn't overtake one as a thief. We are to watch for those specific signs he lays out in the gospels. (Paul being a second witness)That's what a watchman does. Christ even states that when one sees "all these things come to pass" we can know it's at the door. That generation that sees those things shall not pass until all is fulfilled.

You would want to believe that the pre tirbulation rapture is true if your love of god is true.
We are to accept the love of the truth no matter what that might be. No offense, I was a pretibber at one point too and I try and plant seeds out of helping, not to bash. Someone once did the same for me years ago and that's what got me into the bible seriously for the first time.


While pre-tribbers continue to watch and watch.
Again I truly mean no offense but there's a difference between waiting and watching. You are waiting. If you think Christ could return at anytime, you have nothing to "watch" for.

No one knows the day or the hour but when Christ states this, he expects one to know "when the thief would come" Meaning we are to know the signs he just laid out -

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."


Again, Christ states that anyone that sees "all these things come to pass" can know that it's at the door. They will know in what "watch the thief will come"

Both Christ and Paul give out strict warnings about deception.

That's what I'm watching for. I don't go about business as usual as you seem to be implying. I'm in the Word every day and I continue to watch for those signs while living my life in case it happens in my lifetime.

As for the OP

Would you kindly state the weaknesses of the Post-Wrath Post Tribulation Rapture position, please?
I'm post trib and believe God will take care of his own concerning the wrath.
 
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Michu

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Kee;ing in mind that Jesus said he was coming "soon," and the early Christians took that to mean in their lifetime.
It does not say that, through out scripture it states at any time and we are given specific signs to look for. It would mean them and all the generations to come, be on your toes and watch because some are to be taken as a thief in the night. All it states is that the early church took that very seriously.
Not quite seeing the value of watching for that which we know will not occur until the man of lawlessness is revealed (2 Th 2:3).
Would that not then be the time to start watching?
So that's what you're watching out for? So the signs prior is just there for you to align with the lawless one?
How do you deal with that the son of man should come at an hour you think not? Doesn't it question our very understanding of the end times?
Is end time prophesy easy for you to read and understand?
I disagree with the watching point. What are pretribbers watching for?
The same reason you should be, for the union with christ! By love you're drawn.
We are to accept the love of the truth no matter what that might be. No offense, I was a pretibber at one point too and I try and plant seeds out of helping, not to bash. Someone once did the same for me years ago and that's what got me into the bible seriously for the first time.
Why do you say that sister, isn't what you quote that I say true?

My position is neither, I don't say it's this or that. But I absolutely hope that the pre tribbers are correct and I watch with them. Becuase for them the moment is truly around the corner. They are the watchmen.
Again I truly mean no offense but there's a difference between waiting and watching. You are waiting. If you think Christ could return at anytime, you have nothing to "watch" for.
I think that they would strongly disagree with what you're saying here. Don't they have varying thoughts of when they believe the snatch away should take place?
No one knows the day or the hour but when Christ states this, he expects one to know "when the thief would come" Meaning we are to know the signs he just laid out -

Matthew 24:42 "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come."

Matthew 24:43 "But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up."
Let me add Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
Again, Christ states that anyone that sees "all these things come to pass" can know that it's at the door. They will know in what "watch the thief will come"

Both Christ and Paul give out strict warnings about deception.
Watch but be sober.
That's what I'm watching for. I don't go about business as usual as you seem to be implying. I'm in the Word every day and I continue to watch for those signs while living my life in case it happens in my lifetime.
I just speak of what I see, and what I see is that the pre tribbers got their eyes on the heavens and I've seen far many more post tribbers having their eyes on worldly matters.
 
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JulieB67

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Let me add Matthew 24:44 "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh."
That's because most of the world will believe he's already arrived. The fake comes first and then the true Christ. That's why Christ states if they say Christ is here or there -believe it not. And it's also why Paul states

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Many will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, Christ returns. Many will have bought into the fake savior.That's the entire point and why we should be on watch. Paul states our gathering back together will not happen until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Acts3:21 states that heaven must receive Christ until the restitution of "all things". A pretrib rapture does not fit that at all.

And we know that Hebrews 9:28 claims there are only two advents.

I don't want to get off the subject of the thread too much but did want to say that post tribbers are definitely on watch.

I just speak of what I see, and what I see is that the pre tribbers got their eyes on the heavens and I've seen far many more post tribbers having their eyes on worldly matters
Yes, but by just having your eyes on the heavens you will miss the signs that Christ laid out that will be happening in the world.

Christ states the time we need to look up is when these signs have passed-

Luke 21:28 "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

We have to watch for those things he laid out and when they come to pass then we can look up and lift our heads.

I guess we'll see.....
 
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Michu

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That's because most of the world will believe he's already arrived. The fake comes first and then the true Christ. That's why Christ states if they say Christ is here or there -believe it not. And it's also why Paul states

I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Many will be thinking peace and safety and then bam, Christ returns. Many will have bought into the fake savior.That's the entire point and why we should be on watch. Paul states our gathering back together will not happen until the son of perdition sits on the throne proclaiming to be God. Acts3:21 states that heaven must receive Christ until the restitution of "all things". A pretrib rapture does not fit that at all.
That's your understanding yes, to me it question our very understanding of the end times, and therefore watch!

From my perspective I could understand why someone would conclude there's a pre tribulation rapture, so to me it's a matter if it's good. And I concluded it was good even if their belief is that there's a pre trib rapture is wrong. It has them prepared and watching onto the season that we are in.

I'm more worried about those that is a little bit too sure of themselves of end time prophesy and how that would pan out that they would tell others you're wrong, even to the point that some would call their brethren fools.
I don't want to get off the subject of the thread too much but did want to say that post tribbers are definitely on watch.
I mean, who is taking it seriously and discussing world events, anyone that comes to mind? Or is it like everyone to their own?

Where do you Julie sound the alarm? Just out curiosity.
I guess we'll see.....
I guess so, let us be prepared for that day as we think not! God bless you sister!
 
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