Are We an Unknowing Part of the Church of Laodecia

[Hentenza]

He identifies those he's talking about. Those who don't follow his father's laws. He's not talking about false prophets, he saying many will come to him professing to have done many things in his name and he will tell them to depart from him because they work lawlessness (as I said the word in Greek means those who break YHWH's laws). False prophets aren't going to say anything to him, they never called him Lord to begin with. Beyond that really not standing up to any serious scrutiny, he makes it clear who he's talking about in verse 21:


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Nope. Nothing here about the law. You can't just name it and claim it. The verses are talking about false prophets. This is stated explicitly in verse 15.

Read those verses in context they say the same thing. If I was to post them all in context I doubty anyone would read them. If you have a problem with a verse I've quoted and don't think it's saying what I'm implying

I have a problem with your miss-characterization of the verses that you posted. Jesus gave us 2 commandments not 613.

It's not vague it says all the way through scripture to follow the law and that Yeshua is God.

Again, Jesus gave us 2 commandments not 613.

 

[intermentals]

The law is part of the Torah which is the old covenant between God and Israel.

Torah means YHWH's instruction and teaching, it's not exclusively part of the old covenant at all. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever. His standards haven't changed just because Yeshua bore our punishment for sin.

No such teaching in the NT.

How can you possibly say that? The new testament is replete with instructions to obey the commands of YHWH and it even specifically says that Christians have to follow the law of Moses which they'll learn on the Sabbath in Acts 15.

lol Really?

Yeah look it up if you don't believe me

2 Cor. 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Christians are in the ministry of the Spirit which abounds in glory.

Yeah and what is walking in the flesh? Walking with a mind opposed to YHWH's law and walking in the spirit is serving the laws of YHWH. Romans 7:25:

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Gal. 3

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.


The law remains as a tutor to bring people to Christ. In other words, if you have been justified by faith then you no longer need a tutor. Have you been justified by faith or are you still searching for Christ? Which one is it?

The purpose of the law is to make us see how much we need Yeshua, how sinful we are. We need Yeshua because we're so sinful and we can't match up to YHWH's standards. At no point does that mean that if we love YHWH we shouldn't try. You're confusing the idea of our unsatisfactory attempts with one that says we shouldn't even try because Yeshua has done it.

Every time you break the law you're adding to Yeshua's suffering if you're saved. Saying that he fulfilled the law so we don't have to just makes a mockery of what he did. Think of what grace cost Yeshua. Just saying we're under grace is missing the point entirely. If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments you are a liar. Yeshua will say to you that he never knew you if you call him Lord but didn't obey his father.

 

[intermentals]

Nope. Nothing here about the law. You can't just name it and claim it. The verses are talking about false prophets. This is stated explicitly in verse 15.

There's plenty about the law and following his father's will. He says those who won't enter the kingdom of heaven are those who don't follow his father's will. He doesn't say it was that same guys I was talking about back in verse 15. Look at the original Greek and the word for the ones who he'll turn away (verse 23) means those who break YHWH's law. Our translations are insufficient. The best one is the New King James which uses the word lawlessness. The ones he turns away are those who work lawlessness not those who are false prophets.

I have a problem with your miss-characterization of the verses that you posted. Jesus gave us 2 commandments not 613.

No he says that the law can be summarised by those two concepts. He wasn't saying forget the law just love YHWH and your neighbour. For a start loving YHWH is defined elsewhere as following his law and trusting in him

 

[Hentenza]

Torah means YHWH's instruction and teaching, it's not exclusively part of the old covenant at all. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Nope. The Torah are the first five books of the OT and part of the first covenant. God did not change His mind since He terminated one covenant when He issued the new covenant.

His standards haven't changed just because Yeshua bore our punishment for sin.

This is contradictory. If Jesus bore our punishment for our sin then how is our sin punishable now?

How can you possibly say that? The new testament is replete with instructions to obey the commands of YHWH and it even specifically says that Christians have to follow the law of Moses which they'll learn on the Sabbath in Acts 15.

There is no Sabbath teaching in Acts 15. In fact, Christians do NOT have to become Jews to be Christians. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and no commandment for the Sabbath is given in the NT. Jesus is my Sabbath rest as scriptures explain.

Yeah look it up if you don't believe me

I have. I don't believe you.

Yeah and what is walking in the flesh? Walking with a mind opposed to YHWH's law and walking in the spirit is serving the laws of YHWH. Romans 7:25:

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

lol Why did Paul address his letter to the Romans:

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as [f]saints:

Secondly, you continue to isolate verses. Here is what follows in Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, [b]weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Notice the word "therefore" which attaches what follows to have came before. Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. Are those words not plain enough for you? Or do you continue to fight against scripture?

The purpose of the law is to make us see how much we need Yeshua, how sinful we are. We need Yeshua because we're so sinful and we can't match up to YHWH's standards.

lol And you are going to try to follow the commandments?

Secondly, Paul is explicit here. Faith has come. Both faith and the law are contrasted here. They are not complimentary. If faith has come then no tutor is needed unless one has no faith. Do you have faith?

At no point does that mean that if we love YHWH we shouldn't try. You're confusing the idea of our unsatisfactory attempts with one that says we shouldn't even try because Yeshua has done it.

Hogwash. Paul tells us plainly that Christ has set us free from the law. He also warns us that those that try (lol) to follow the law will be judged by the WHOLE law (not just by the individual pieces that you claim you try to follow).

Every time you break the law you're adding to Yeshua's suffering if you're saved. Saying that he fulfilled the law so we don't have to just makes a mockery of what he did.

Every time you attempt to follow the law you are diminishing Jesus suffering and sacrifice by claiming that it was not sufficient and that you can do better.

Think of what grace cost Yeshua.

Yes, think about your sin hanging on the cross. He died for your sin.

Just saying we're under grace is missing the point entirely.

Not at all. It is because of God's grace that we are able to be saved not by what we can do or try to do. Grace is free and cannot be worked for, otherwise it ceases to be grace.

If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments you are a liar.

Dude, following Jesus is a heart condition that comes naturally from saving faith. I don't need a check list to tell me how good of a Christian I am. Apparently you do.

Yeshua will say to you that he never knew you if you call him Lord but didn't obey his father.

I'm not a false prophet. Stop plucking verses out of scripture. Verse are not islands.

 

[Hentenza]

He doesn't say it was that same guys I was talking about back in verse 15.

Lets see:

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will [k]know them by their fruits. [them=false prophets] [l]Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will [m]know them [them=false prophets] by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone [false prophets do signs and wonders in the name of the Lord] who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’[false prophets do signs and wonders in the name of the Lord] 23 And then I will declare to them [them=false peophets], ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’[lawlessness throughout scripture is used as those who do evil deeds. False prophets do evil deeds. This is not talking about breaking the Jewish law] (all text in brackets mine).



No, is talking about the same guys.

Look at the original Greek and the word for the ones who he'll turn away (verse 23) means those who break YHWH's law.

Nope.

Our translations are insufficient.

Mine is sufficient.

The best one is the New King James which uses the word lawlessness. The ones he turns away are those who work lawlessness not those who are false prophets.

I explained this above.

No he says that the law can be summarised by those two concepts.
He wasn't saying forget the law just love YHWH and your neighbour. For a start loving YHWH is defined elsewhere as following his law and trusting in him.

If you trust in Him then stop trying to follow the law and trust in what Jesus has done for you. You will never even come close to Jesus in this life, therefore, stop "trying" to follow the commandments that He nailed on the cross and follow Him from the love in your heart. Get rid of the check list.

 

[Stone Butterfly]

This may help further the conversation because I think there is some confusion as to what Jesus said and what Christianity teaches after that.



God Bless.


UCG

Jesus' Teaching on God's Law

The common view is that the teachings of Christ in the New Testament annulled and replaced the teachings of the Old Testament. But do they?

Judaism forsook Moses, Christianity forsook Christ
When it comes to Jesus and the law, we have to conclude that the "Christian" religion has let us down by not holding to the original teachings of Christ, who Himself held to the original teachings of the Old Testament Scriptures. And as the teachings of Jewish religious leaders corrupted Moses, so did the later teachers of Christ—that is, false teachers—corrupt the teachings of Jesus. In reality, Jesus and Moses agreed.

Let's ask a question here. If Jesus were here today, which day would He observe as the Sabbath? It would be the day He commanded in the Ten Commandments, the seventh day.
The real Jesus kept the law and expected His disciples to do the same. He made clear His attitude about anyone diminishing one iota from the law. Anyone not keeping it is only using the good name of Christ without doing what He said.
He warns us: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'LORD, LORD,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'LORD, LORD, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23).

So we have to ask, Do the churches which claim to represent Christ really represent Him accurately?
Jesus often pointed out that His teaching was based in the Old Testament Scriptures. When challenged concerning His teaching He responded, "Have you not read...?" before pointing His challengers to the Scriptures that supported what He had said (Matthew 12:3, 5; 19:4; 22:31).

Those who say that Jesus departed from the Old Testament are simply wrong. In this chapter we have demonstrated that both many Jews and most of Christianity are incorrect in their assessment of Jesus' teachings. Jesus faithfully taught the written word of the Old Testament.

We have seen earlier that Jesus was actually God in the Old Testament. God doesn't change His ways. He is eternal. It would not inspire much faith to know that He required one thing in the Old Testament but then changed His mind and came up with a wholly different set of requirements in the New. Jesus Christ is consistent, "the same yesterday, today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).

 

[intermentals]

Nope. The Torah are the first five books of the OT and part of the first covenant. God did not change His mind since He terminated one covenant when He issued the new covenant.

The covenants are layered. Everyone has always been saved by faith not by keeping the law.

This is contradictory. If Jesus bore our punishment for our sin then how is our sin punishable now?

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law. If we repent we are forgiven. Without repentance there is no atonement for sin and so no forgiveness.

There is no Sabbath teaching in Acts 15. In fact, Christians do NOT have to become Jews to be Christians. Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath and no commandment for the Sabbath is given in the NT. Jesus is my Sabbath rest as scriptures explain.

Acts 15:19-21:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That's pretty clear. Basically put, tell them the basics and they'll learn the rest on the Sabbath..

I have. I don't believe you.

It's not something that my argument hangs on anyway but you don't know your Bible if you don't believe me. Deuteronomy 17:15-18:

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

Unless you're saying that you don't believe that Yeshua was a king of Israel in which case we should stop this discussion right now.

lol Why did Paul address his letter to the Romans:

7 to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as

Secondly, you continue to isolate verses. Here is what follows in Romans 8:

Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Notice the word "therefore" which attaches what follows to have came before. Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and of death. Are those words not plain enough for you? Or do you continue to fight against scripture?

I'm not isolating anything, again salvation is not by following the law. That's something we do to love YHWH. We do it as an act of obedience. Yeshua did away with the penalty, not the law. If he could do away with the law there'd be no sin anyway. Everyone has always been saved by faith. No one has every been saved by following the law. Nothing has changed.

lol And you are going to try to follow the commandments?

Yes. As an act of obedience to show that I trust YHWH. That he knows what's best for us. His commandments have always been for our own good. We are blessed if we follow the law.

Secondly, Paul is explicit here. Faith has come. Both faith and the law are contrasted here. They are not complimentary. If faith has come then no tutor is needed unless one has no faith. Do you have faith?

Faith and legalism are contrasted here. Without the law there is no grace, there's not even any sin.

Hogwash. Paul tells us plainly that Christ has set us free from the law. He also warns us that those that try (lol) to follow the law will be judged by the WHOLE law (not just by the individual pieces that you claim you try to follow).

Yes again you're confusing legalism (salvation by following the law) with following YHWH's law because we love him. I'm not saying we're saved by following the law. All of Paul that you're misunderstanding is about leegalism vs faith. It says nothing about the validity of YHWH's standard just about our inability to meet it and hence be righteous in his sight.

Every time you attempt to follow the law you are diminishing Jesus suffering and sacrifice by claiming that it was not sufficient and that you can do better.

No that's legalism you're talking about there again. Following the law shows that you respect the sacrifice and aren't just like it's fine we're under grace now Yeshua's died for our sins. Romans 3:31:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yes, think about your sin hanging on the cross. He died for your sin.

Yes he did. Sin is transgression of the law. I'm certainly not going to make a mockery of it by saying he's somehow done away with the law he died for my transgression of. Again he did away with my penalty, not the actual law. If he could just do away with the law he wouldn't have had to die at all.

What you're actually saying is that YHWH held us to some impossible standard that Yeshua had to die in order to get rid of rather than what the Bible actually says that he died to take the punishment we deserve.

Not at all. It is because of God's grace that we are able to be saved not by what we can do or try to do. Grace is free and cannot be worked for, otherwise it ceases to be grace.

Yep, totally agree. Nothing to do with the validity of the law though. We do what YHWH says because we love him.

Dude, following Jesus is a heart condition that comes naturally from saving faith. I don't need a check list to tell me how good of a Christian I am. Apparently you do.

No I just do what YHWH wants because I'm obedient. The law is written in my heart, I want to do what please YHWH.

I'm not a false prophet. Stop plucking verses out of scripture. Verse are not islands.

He very clearly says that he's talking about those who work lawlessness, how do you get that he's talking about the false prophets he addressed earlier? He actually says it's because people don't follow YHWH's commandments. Look at the original Greek and not a poor translation.

 

[intermentals]

Lets see:

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them [them=false prophets] by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone [false prophets do signs and wonders in the name of the Lord] who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’[false prophets do signs and wonders in the name of the Lord] 23 And then I will declare to them [them=false peophets], ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’[lawlessness throughout scripture is used as those who do evil deeds. False prophets do evil deeds. This is not talking about breaking the Jewish law] (all text in brackets mine).

No, is talking about the same guys.

I think you need to read the original text, it makes it a lot clearer. You're being mislead by the vaguaries of English. It's really really clear who he's talking about in Greek.

Nope.

Mine is sufficient.

What does Acts 8:37 say in your translation? No translation is sufficient as it's not the original Word of YHWH.

I explained this above.

If you trust in Him then stop trying to follow the law and trust in what Jesus has done for you. You will never even come close to Jesus in this life, therefore, stop "trying" to follow the commandments that He nailed on the cross and follow Him from the love in your heart. Get rid of the check list.

You are really mislead here and understanding 'trust' and 'believe' from our modern mindset. To trust and believe was a very different to the authors of the scriptures. You would show your trust and belief by obeying what YHWH said. Your main problem is you're trying to understand an ancient text from a modern perspective and not the perspective of the writer.

Again Yeshua did not nail the law to the cross, he nailed our penalties for breaking it to the cross. What you glibly label a checklist is and was extremely important to YHWH. It's his standard. Remember you will have to give account of every word you utter. Try telling YHWH that his holy law is some dead checklist that Yeshua fulfilled so we can disregard.

This may help further the conversation because I think there is some confusion as to what Jesus said and what Christianity teaches after that.

God Bless.
The common view is that the teachings of Christ in the New Testament annulled and replaced the teachings of the Old Testament. But do they?

Exactly. Spot on.

 

[98cwitr]

We are no longer under the OT Law, but the NT Law...and what does it say?

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's pretty simple really:

When God delivered the Israelites out from Egypt He established a unique, national covenant with them in Sinai where Moses delivered to them the commandments of God, traditionally enumerated as 613. These commandments cover everything from personal morality to how priests are to make offering to how foreigners are to be treated within the borders among the people. It is a Divine Constitution for a specific group of people, a national contract.

God didn't give it to the Moabites, or to the Egyptians, or to my German ancestors; He gave it to the Israelites, the sons and daughters of Jacob and those who did and would become part of that covenant.

When at the Last Supper our Lord Jesus Christ said, "This is My blood of the new covenant" He was, in fact, establishing a distinct covenant, one unlike that made at Mt. Sinai. This covenant was not for a specific group of people, but for all people. For Jew and Gentile alike.

When certain persons within the Church sought to impose the strictures of the Old Covenant--circumcision, sabbath observance, dietary laws, and so forth--very consistently the apostolic leadership both in Jerusalem and abroad argued that, no, Gentile converts were not obligated to do such things. Jewish converts may have continued to do as they always had done, but St. Paul is explicitly clear in his writings that "circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing" (1 Corinthians 7:19); it is not being Jewish or Gentile that matters, but rather Christ who matters, who has dissolved the wall of separation between Jews and Gentiles making the two one new people in Himself (Ephesians 2:11-22), that is, He has established His Church.

Coming in here and demanding that the people of the New Covenant are obligated to partake in the things of the Old Covenant which had never been given to them is to place a yoke which was never designed to be placed on us. A dog collar probably won't fit an ox, neither does the Old Covenant fit the people of the New Covenant--for it was never meant for them, never designed for them.

The Torah was given at a specific time and place for a specific people as part of a specific covenant.

As I don't practice Judaism, but Christianity, I have no more business observing the Torah than an ox does wearing a dog collar. This goy here is fine practicing the Christian religion and following the faith of the Apostles, longed for and hoped for by the ancient Prophets.

My Jewish friends who attend Synagogue on Shabbot, who celebrate Pesach and all the Jewish holy days, who abstain from unclean foods and follow the strictures of Jewish halakah are free to do so. They are, after all, Jews practicing Judaism. But I'm not a Jew practicing Judaism, I'm a Gentile practicing Christianity. I have no business pretending and acting like a Jew when I'm not one.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[intermentals]

We are no longer under the OT Law, but the NT Law...and what does it say?

No we're under the new covenant not a new law. Something about YHWH's eternal standards isn't quite coming across here. The new testament didn't even exist when it was written (obviously) so any discussion contained therein about the scriptures is about the old testament. When it says in the NT that we're to obey the law it is referring to the old testament law.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No we're under the new covenant not a new law. Something about YHWH's eternal standards isn't quite coming across here. The new testament didn't even exist when it was written (obviously) so any discussion contained therein about the scriptures is about the old testament. When it says in the NT that we're to obey the law it is referring to the old testament law.

Except for that whole bit about Gentile converts being under no compulsion to observe the Torah (i.e. the Law of Moses as it is usually called in the New Testament)--which the New Testament hammers on time and again.

I have no reason to observe the Jewish Sabbath. I'm not a Jew. I'm an uncircumcised Gentile.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

The covenants are layered. Everyone has always been saved by faith not by keeping the law.

The covenants are not layered but lets keep this simple. If all have been saved by faith apart from the law, then how does obeying the law play a role in our salvation?

What is sin? Sin is transgression of the law. If we repent we are forgiven. Without repentance there is no atonement for sin and so no forgiveness.

So now, repentance, which is a work, saves us?

Acts 15:19-21:
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

That's pretty clear. Basically put, tell them the basics and they'll learn the rest on the Sabbath..

Nope. Nothing here about you will learn the rest on the Sabbath. You need to keep reading.

27 “Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 “For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; [p]if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

The apostles did not decree the law or even the attendance to the synagogue on the Sabbath but only the essentials listed here. Christians do NOT need to be Jews which is the problem that Paul and Barnabas brought to Jerusalem to be resolved.

It's not something that my argument hangs on anyway but you don't know your Bible if you don't believe me. Deuteronomy 17:15-18:

15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the Lord thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

16 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the Lord hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way.

17 Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold.

18 And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

Unless you're saying that you don't believe that Yeshua was a king of Israel in which case we should stop this discussion right now.

Jesus was not a king of Israel since Israel rejected God's kingship in favor of the kingship of men. You keep ignoring verses.

14 “When you enter the land which the Lord your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, ‘I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,’

Lets keep reading:
18 “Now it shall come about when he sits on the throne of his kingdom, he shall write for himself a copy of this law on a scroll [o]in the presence of the Levitical priests. 19 It shall be with him and he shall read it all the days of his life, that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, [p]by carefully observing all the words of this law and these statutes, 20 that his heart may not be lifted up above his [q]countrymen and that he may not turn aside from the commandment, to the right or the left, so that he and his sons may continue long in his kingdom in the midst of Israel.


1. Jesus knows the law and does not need to copy the law on a scroll in the presence of the Levetical priests.


2. Jesus did not need to learn to fear the Lord his God.



3. Jesus heart will never be lifted above his countrymen and Jesus would never turn aside from the commandments (Later He died for our sins).



4. Jesus has no sons and God only has ONE son.



You continue to appropriate verses (and plucking verses out of context) that do not help your case.

I'm not isolating anything, again salvation is not by following the law. That's something we do to love YHWH. We do it as an act of obedience. Yeshua did away with the penalty, not the law. If he could do away with the law there'd be no sin anyway. Everyone has always been saved by faith. No one has every been saved by following the law. Nothing has changed.

Where there is no law there is no penalty. Jesus did away with the penalty because there is no law. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that there is no condemnation for those in Christ. Christ is the propitiation of our sin (1 John 2).

Yes. As an act of obedience to show that I trust YHWH. That he knows what's best for us. His commandments have always been for our own good. We are blessed if we follow the law.

Hogwash. You can't show Jesus that you trust Him while you try to obey the law. You either trust Him n your heart or you do not. Paul tells us in Romans 4:

4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account.”


Obeying the law is a work and by attempting to follow the law you are working for a wage which is not credited as a favor but as something that is due.



Tell me, who are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven and their sins have been covered? Who is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account?

Faith and legalism are contrasted here. Without the law there is no grace, there's not even any sin.

You are reading what is NOT in the verse. The contrast is between the law and faith. Nothing here about legalism. Paul is EXPLICIT that if you have not come to Christ then you need a tutor to lead you to Christ. The antithesis is that if you have faith then you do not need a tutor.

Yes again you're confusing legalism (salvation by following the law) with following YHWH's law because we love him. I'm not saying we're saved by following the law. All of Paul that you're misunderstanding is about leegalism vs faith. It says nothing about the validity of YHWH's standard just about our inability to meet it and hence be righteous in his sight.

Hogwash. I already addressed this above and in other posts.

No that's legalism you're talking about there again. Following the law shows that you respect the sacrifice and aren't just like it's fine we're under grace now Yeshua's died for our sins. Romans 3:31:

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Dude, do you not keep reading and just stop when you you wish? The beginning of chapter 4, which I posted above, explains verse 31. Stop verse mining.

Yes he did. Sin is transgression of the law. I'm certainly not going to make a mockery of it by saying he's somehow done away with the law he died for my transgression of. Again he did away with my penalty, not the actual law. If he could just do away with the law he wouldn't have had to die at all.

If you have no penalty then you have no law. It is really that simple. Paul explains it nicely in Romans 5.

What you're actually saying is that YHWH held us to some impossible standard that Yeshua had to die in order to get rid of rather than what the Bible actually says that he died to take the punishment we deserve.

He took the punishment that we deserved because we are sinners.

Yep, totally agree. Nothing to do with the validity of the law though. We do what YHWH says because we love him.

If you love Him then you don't need a checklist.

No I just do what YHWH wants because I'm obedient. The law is written in my heart, I want to do what please YHWH.

Israel did not please the Lord. What makes you think that you can? Who makes you righteous? You or God?

He very clearly says that he's talking about those who work lawlessness, how do you get that he's talking about the false prophets he addressed earlier? He actually says it's because people don't follow YHWH's commandments. Look at the original Greek and not a poor translation.

I've looked at the Greek and I marked the passage for you to illustrate the pronouns. You did not attempt to debunk what I wrote which tells me that you can't debunk it and have no idea what the Greek states.

 

[Hentenza]

I think you need to read the original text, it makes it a lot clearer. You're being mislead by the vaguaries of English. It's really really clear who he's talking about in Greek.

I have and I stand by what I wrote. Can you debunk it?

What does Acts 8:37 say in your translation? No translation is sufficient as it's not the original Word of YHWH.

37 [[m]And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”]

Is bracketed because it is not included in the older mss and could be an addition. If you want to get technical, the original word of God is not extant. We have over 25,000 mss and fragments from copies. I can, though, make the argument that we have 100% of the original word of God but since it is from copies there are copyist errors.

You are really mislead here and understanding 'trust' and 'believe' from our modern mindset.

Not at all. I've done extensive studies on both words.

To trust and believe was a very different to the authors of the scriptures. You would show your trust and belief by obeying what YHWH said. Your main problem is you're trying to understand an ancient text from a modern perspective and not the perspective of the writer.

lol You can't even answer the question that I asked you several posts back. How many of the 613 commandments are for the individual?

Again Yeshua did not nail the law to the cross, he nailed our penalties for breaking it to the cross. What you glibly label a checklist is and was extremely important to YHWH. It's his standard. Remember you will have to give account of every word you utter. Try telling YHWH that his holy law is some dead checklist that Yeshua fulfilled so we can disregard.

Col. 2
13 When you were dead [k]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 When He had [l]disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through [m]Him.

1. All of our transgression have been forgiven. Paul has already explained that were there is no law there is no transgression.

2. He canceled the certificates of debt. Remember that work is not credited as favor but as debt (Romans 4).

3. The rulers and authorities of the time where those who followed the law (Pharisees and Sadducees).

4. These certificates of debt, the law, He has taken out of the way and nailed them to the cross. Is not hard brother.

 

[Optimax]

Hope this helps

I see it impacted you about the way I figured it would.

 

[from scratch]

No we're under the new covenant not a new law. Something about YHWH's eternal standards isn't quite coming across here. The new testament didn't even exist when it was written (obviously) so any discussion contained therein about the scriptures is about the old testament. When it says in the NT that we're to obey the law it is referring to the old testament law.

Except Peter calls Paul's writings Scripture.

 

[from scratch]

Torah means YHWH's instruction and teaching, it's not exclusively part of the old covenant at all. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever. His standards haven't changed just because Yeshua bore our punishment for sin.



How can you possibly say that? The new testament is replete with instructions to obey the commands of YHWH and it even specifically says that Christians have to follow the law of Moses which they'll learn on the Sabbath in Acts 15.



Yeah look it up if you don't believe me



Yeah and what is walking in the flesh? Walking with a mind opposed to YHWH's law and walking in the spirit is serving the laws of YHWH. Romans 7:25:

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



The purpose of the law is to make us see how much we need Yeshua, how sinful we are. We need Yeshua because we're so sinful and we can't match up to YHWH's standards. At no point does that mean that if we love YHWH we shouldn't try. You're confusing the idea of our unsatisfactory attempts with one that says we shouldn't even try because Yeshua has done it.

Every time you break the law you're adding to Yeshua's suffering if you're saved. Saying that he fulfilled the law so we don't have to just makes a mockery of what he did. Think of what grace cost Yeshua. Just saying we're under grace is missing the point entirely. If you say you know him and don't keep his commandments you are a liar. Yeshua will say to you that he never knew you if you call him Lord but didn't obey his father.

You're a prime example of why it difficult to talk to the lost about Jesus.

 

[intermentals]

YHWH made the Sabbath holy. We should keep it holy. We can't make a day holy, just as we can't stop it being holy.

The Sabbath was institutionalised and sanctified before the fall. The Christian church have followed Rome in observing Sunday and thereby acknowledged their authority (over YHWH's) to dictate times and laws.

 

[SilverBlade]

YHWH made the Sabbath holy. We should keep it holy. We can't make a day holy, just as we can't stop it being holy.

The Sabbath was institutionalised and sanctified before the fall. The Christian church have followed Rome in observing Sunday and thereby acknowledged their authority (over YHWH's) to dictate times and laws.

There's no evidence of the Sabbath being instructed before the fall of man. It was first introduced on Mt Sinai by Moses during the Exodus period.

All it says it "God rested on the 7th day" Not "God rested on the 7th day and told Adam and Eve to do the same."

God instructed Moses to give the commandments during Exodus...there's no such instruction before that time directly..

 

[intermentals]

Genesis 2:2-3:

2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

He sanctified it then. There was no commandment given over clean/unclean animals yet Noah knew what the deal was:

Genesis 7:2
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

Also it says that Abraham followed God's law even though Moses hadn't written it down for the people:

Genesis 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God hasn't suddenly changed his standard is eternal, it is his very character. God is entirely without sin by definition because sin is the opposite of God's character.

Malachi 3:6
6 For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

The further we've got from the garden and walking with the creator, a direct personal relationship, the more we've needed things like the law being codified by Moses.