Are We an Unknowing Part of the Church of Laodecia

[Stryder06]

And now you add false accusations to the list. Christians can't be said to keep Sunday holy as a group. There are a few who approximate your idea. Notice I said a few.

It's not false or an accusation. It's the simple truth. I can't help it if your actions go contrary to your words. And please don't get it twisted, the number of Christians who believe Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath" is extensive. You sir are in the shallow end of the pool when it comes to thinking that Sunday is just a day to go to church on.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You can say what you will, but actions speak louder than words. By treating the sabbath as common, and sunday as sacred, you most certainly have replaced it.

And the scripture in no wise says that Christians don't have to keep the sabbath. You keep trying to lump the sabbath in with the Torah as if it's the only command there. If all of the Torah is out, then that includes commandments 1-3 and 5-10, as well as the laws about sexual morality, including homosexuality.

You continue to maintain your Straw Man.

So murder was only wrong when God gave it as a commandment to Israel? It was never wrong otherwise?

Did God command Israel to not murder to make murder wrong, or because it was wrong already and included it in the list of commandments Israel was to abide by?

I see it as the latter. I don't need a commandment written on stone to tell me that murder is wrong, it is clearly wrong and has always been wrong, the Law of God is not constrained to 613 commandments given to a particular people at a particular time; what is good is good because it is good; what is not good is not good because it is not good.

You still avoid, to no great surprise, the point made concerning God's other commandments. You seem to have no trouble treading out the Levitical prohibition against men sleeping with men, because no doubt it benefits your attempt at argument; but you refuse to acknowledge or address the many other commandments of God I've listed already.

I'll make this easy for you: Is God's commandment to not wear mixed fabrics still valid?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[intermentals]

So you observe each and every of the 613 commandments? You wear tzizit? You observe kashrut? You're bris milah? When was the last time you made your wife leave the community and shut herself up during the period of her menstruation, and where did you acquire the pigeon to give as an offering? Have you ensured that your none of your clothing is of mixed fibers--that means no cotton polyester blends. You don't shave the pavot on the sides of your head do you?

If you are not willing to obey all of God's commandments given in the Torah, then you have no right to suggest we are at fault for not observing the Torah.

-CryptoLutheran

The problem here is your understanding of the law, not following the law.

I keep the law which pertains to the individual. There's the judicial law, which I don't follow because I'm not a judge (usually to do with stoning), and there's laws to deal with sin which Yeshua did. Everything to do with sin and the shedding of innocent blood was dealt with by Yeshua so pigeon offerings are no longer needed.

The menstruation law was to do with being ceremonially unclean and since we no longer have to shed blood and be ceremonially clean to do so it is of no effect.

The circumcision thing was a physical act to show that you accepted the old covenant, again the shedding of blood was necessary. We're under a new covenant and the shedding of Yeshua's blood and the accepting of his sacrifice is how we accept the covenant. Now ours hearts are circumcised not our penises. Paul said in Galatians 3:15-18:

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

YHWH can't break his covenants or disannul them, only layer them one on top of the other. There are seven covenants in the Bible and none of them have been done away with. Paul is basically saying that if mere human covenants can't be done away with, how much less can one of YHWH?

Paul knew the law wasn't done away with. In Acts some people were saying that was what he was teaching that it was, and he underwent the purification ceremony (and very expensively paid for four others to do the same) just to prove it. The issue of whether Christians were to follow the law was brought up at the Jerusalem council and Peter said not to confuse them at first with all the rules but that they'd learn it because it was preached every Sabbath. What I'm saying is what the Bible says on the matter.

Anything that YHWH tells the individual to do though I do. Yes I wear Tzitzit, they're to give you a visual reminder that you're obedient to the law. Sin enters largely through the eyes so we have a visual reminder to stay obedient. Yeshua wore tzitzit, that's what the woman touched to be healed. Yeshua is our model of how we should live. At what point do you think we no longer needed a visual reminder to be obedient? Society has declined morally, massively. If anything we need more of a reminder now.

I think Kashrut is partly Talmudic tradition and so of men not YHWH but I observe the dietary laws that are in the Bible. I listen to what our creator says is best for his creations. I trust him. That's what faith is. Why do you think we no longer need to do that? There are very good reasons why some animals are clean and others are unclean for example, but even if we hadn't worked it out I'd still trust YHWH.

I don't wear clothes with mixed fibers. Why? Because I want to please YHWH and he says not to. I trust him, I have faith in him. Obedience is the outward show of this. How can I say I trust him if I don't do what he says. That's trusting YHWH up to the point at which you don't understand his reasons and then just doing your own thing. It's not trusting him as our creator. It makes no sense to say these things don't apply now. If there was a reason for them then, there's a reason for them now. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Excuses. That's like saying it's impossible to stay faithful in the modern days. If you drive pas a billboard and see someone half naked you've lusted in your heart.

I like you, you're like totally agreeing with what I'm saying and stuff

 

[Stryder06]

You continue to maintain your Straw Man.

So murder was only wrong when God gave it as a commandment to Israel? It was never wrong otherwise?

Did God command Israel to not murder to make murder wrong, or because it was wrong already and included it in the list of commandments Israel was to abide by?

You must not know that we maintain the commandments existed from creation.

I see it as the latter. I don't need a commandment written on stone to tell me that murder is wrong, it is clearly wrong and has always been wrong, the Law of God is not constrained to 613 commandments given to a particular people at a particular time; what is good is good because it is good; what is not good is not good because it is not good.

You only know what's good and evil because God has made it clear.

You still avoid, to no great surprise, the point made concerning God's other commandments. You seem to have no trouble treading out the Levitical prohibition against men sleeping with men, because no doubt it benefits your attempt at argument; but you refuse to acknowledge or address the many other commandments of God I've listed already.

I'm pretty sure I said that there were plenty of commands that I believe we don't have to keep because they were meant strictly for Israel. Sorry if you were expecting a list. I couldn't recite 50 of the 613, and I'm not going to pretend that I could. I'm also not going to run to google to find out what they are.

I'll make this easy for you: Is God's commandment to not wear mixed fabrics still valid?

-CryptoLutheran

It's not about making it easy. I could explain that to you, as I've done before, but you'll simply reject the explanation because it'll explode your premise. You guys kill me pulling the "mixed fabric" and "dairy with meat" commandments. Be original. Give me commandment 272, or 331, or 117. Or better yet, look at the commands and figure out what they were for, and how they applied.

What you really need to do is stop beating around the bush. You keep commandments 1-3 and 5-10, and please don't act like you do. With that alone, your "Christians aren't obligated to the Torah" argument falls flat since those are part of the Torah. Moreso, the prohibition against blood, which is spoken of in Acts, is also from the Torah. So it isn't about tossing out the law, but understanding how it applies.

 

[Hentenza]

I keep the law which pertains to the individual.

Really? How well do you keep it?

 

[Stryder06]

Really? How well do you keep it?

What does it matter? If he told you that he kept it perfectly it's not like you'd believe him.

We aren't told to keep the law only if it's convenient for us, or if someone else is doing it. We're told to keep it, because "My grace is sufficient for you." and because "we can do all things through Christ who strengthens" us.

 

[intermentals]

I'm pretty sure I said that there were plenty of commands that I believe we don't have to keep because they were meant strictly for Israel.

I agree with almost all of what you're saying but we're grafted into the House of Israel. We're the wild branch. Anything that applies to Israel applies to us. Israel is not just a geographical location. Yeshua only came for the lost sheep of Israel. He also came for anyone that would follow YHWH's laws, the strangers in the land, just like at the exodus.

Really? How well do you keep it?

As well as I can and when I fail I repent and ask Yeshua for forgiveness. I don't sin unrepentently though. If there's a law I don't just disregard it because it's inconvenient.

 

[Stryder06]

I agree with almost all of what you're saying but we're grafted into the House of Israel. We're the wild branch. Anything that applies to Israel applies to us. Israel is not just a geographical location. Yeshua only came for the lost sheep of Israel. He also came for anyone that would follow YHWH's laws, the strangers in the land, just like at the exodus.

I agree that we are part of Israel. I was just trying to make a point.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The problem here is your understanding of the law, not following the law.

I keep the law which pertains to the individual. There's the judicial law, which I don't follow because I'm not a judge (usually to do with stoning), and there's laws to deal with sin which Yeshua did. Everything to do with sin and the shedding of innocent blood was dealt with by Yeshua so pigeon offerings are no longer needed.

The menstruation law was to do with being ceremonially unclean and since we no longer have to shed blood and be ceremonially clean to do so it is of no effect.

The circumcision thing was a physical act to show that you accepted the old covenant, again the shedding of blood was necessary. We're under a new covenant and the shedding of Yeshua's blood and the accepting of his sacrifice is how we accept the covenant. Now ours hearts are circumcised not our penises. Paul said in Galatians 3:15-18:

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

YHWH can't break his covenants or disannul them, only layer them one on top of the other. There are seven covenants in the Bible and none of them have been done away with. Paul is basically saying that if mere human covenants can't be done away with, how much less can one of YHWH?

Paul knew the law wasn't done away with. In Acts some people were saying that was what he was teaching that it was, and he underwent the purification ceremony (and very expensively paid for four others to do the same) just to prove it. The issue of whether Christians were to follow the law was brought up at the Jerusalem council and Peter said not to confuse them at first with all the rules but that they'd learn it because it was preached every Sabbath. What I'm saying is what the Bible says on the matter.

Anything that YHWH tells the individual to do though I do. Yes I wear Tzitzit, they're to give you a visual reminder that you're obedient to the law. Sin enters largely through the eyes so we have a visual reminder to stay obedient. Yeshua wore tzitzit, that's what the woman touched to be healed. Yeshua is our model of how we should live. At what point do you think we no longer needed a visual reminder to be obedient? Society has declined morally, massively. If anything we need more of a reminder now.

I think Kashrut is partly Talmudic tradition and so of men not YHWH but I observe the dietary laws that are in the Bible. I listen to what our creator says is best for his creations. I trust him. That's what faith is. Why do you think we no longer need to do that? There are very good reasons why some animals are clean and others are unclean for example, but even if we hadn't worked it out I'd still trust YHWH.

I don't wear clothes with mixed fibers. Why? Because I want to please YHWH and he says not to. I trust him, I have faith in him. Obedience is the outward show of this. How can I say I trust him if I don't do what he says. That's trusting YHWH up to the point at which you don't understand his reasons and then just doing your own thing. It's not trusting him as our creator. It makes no sense to say these things don't apply now. If there was a reason for them then, there's a reason for them now. YHWH is the same yesterday, today and forever.

You seem to be arbitrarily deciding which commandments are still in effect. You admit more than most, but for example you state that the law concerning menstruating women is done away with because sacrificial laws are done away with; yet a similar law is given for men who have a "night time emission". Nothing about this has to do with blood, and yet it made one unclean.

Note, also, that St. Paul continued to attend Temple and made Qorban (Acts 21:26) at least once. This was not an offering to atone for sin, but then again not all offerings were for sin; most were for other reasons--apparently then Paul had no trouble offering Qorban for purity, though we find that he only underwent the vow and subsequent offering as an act of good will toward certain other Jewish believers; not as though it were required of him.

If, therefore, certain qorbanot had nothing to do with appeasement/reconciliation due to sin, involving the shedding of blood--such as the grain offerings--then wouldn't even these forms of qorbanot be valid according to your reckoning?

If --
a) Paul himself is willing to offer qorban
and
b) There were forms of qorban that had nothing to do with reconciliation

then shouldn't it follow that if Torah is valid for Christians that Christians therefore are obligated to offer some forms of qorban? E.g. grain offerings

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Hentenza]

As well as I can and when I fail I repent and ask Yeshua for forgiveness. I don't sin unrepentently though. If there's a law I don't just disregard it because it's inconvenient.

So how many of the 613 commandments are "individual" commandments?

 

[Hentenza]

What does it matter? If he told you that he kept it perfectly it's not like you'd believe him.

We aren't told to keep the law only if it's convenient for us, or if someone else is doing it. We're told to keep it, because "My grace is sufficient for you." and because "we can do all things through Christ who strengthens" us.

I'll ask you the same question. How many of the 613 commandments do you follow? How many are commandments for the "individual"?

 

[intermentals]

Scriptural evidence?

I wonder if you have ever read and considered these scriptures and other scriptures like them?

Matt 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. KJV

Absolutely. How does the Bible say we love YHWH? By following his law.

John 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. KJV

Yep, they're not mutually exclusive. What do you think grace is? Without the law there is no grace.

Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. KJV

We're not justified by keeping the law, you'll get no argument there. We do it because we believe in YHWH. Because it is written in our hearts.

Rom 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. KJV

Yep we're all transgressors of the law. We need Yeshua. Doesn't mean the law is done away with though. He did away with our penalties, not the law.

Rom 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. KJV

Don't forget the next verse. Romans 6:15:
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

(Sin is transgresion of the law (1 John 3:4)

Rom 7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. KJV

Yeah this is talking about the law pertaining to marriage that YHWH divorced the northern kingdom and the only way he could remarry was the death of the groom. Yeshua died freeing the northern kingodm to remarry the risen saviour and enter back into covenant.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. KJV

Mistranslation. Should read Christ is the goal (other meaning of end) of the law. He fulfilled it perfectly.

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. KJV

Again no one is saved by the law. They're saved by faith. Even the people in the old testament. It's not like salvation used to be by following the law because no one could do it perfectly. Abraham believed YHWH and it was counted to him as righteousness.

Gal 2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. KJV

Yeah through the law of YHWH we are dead to the law of sin. Read it in context.

Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. KJV

Again no one is saved by the law. Often Paul was talking to the people who said that Christians had to be circumcised. He wasn't saying the law serves no purpose he was saying we are not saved by it. 2 Peter 3:16:

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Gal 3:10-11
10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. KJV

Yep, we're blessed (things go well for us) if we trust YHWH and do as he says and we're cursed (things go badly) if we disobey him. He's basically saying trust me I know what I'm doing. Again everyone ever has been saved by faith. Romans 4:1-8:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Eph 2:15
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; KJV

This is a mistranslation, it's better explained in Collossians 2:14:

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Christ didn't do away with the law, he did away with the penalty for breaking it. That was what was nailed to the cross, not the law. If Yeshua could just do away with the law why would he have had to die. You're basically saying that YHWH changed his mind about the law, that he had to send Yeshua for his own mistake. Again Yeshua did away with our penalty. I've used the example before of it being like a police officer saying to someone he catches speeding. I forgive you, go and speed no more. He's not doing away with the speeding law, he's saying we're not answerable for the penalty (wages of sin is death) if we repent.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
KJV

Yeah goes on to say that you should warn someone twice and if they still refuse to listen, leave them to it. Obviously it's not saying the law itself is at fault and we shouldn't follow it. It's saying if someone is sinful, don't argue with them because it's spiritual. Warn them twice and then have nothing to do with them.

Hope this helps

 

[Hentenza]

Heb. 8
13 [i]When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is [j]ready to disappear.

The old covenant included the Jewish laws and HE has made the first covenant obsolete and ready to disappear. It's pretty cut and dry.

 

[intermentals]

And now you add false accusations to the list. Christians can't be said to keep Sunday holy as a group. There are a few who approximate your idea. Notice I said a few.

Yeah the obedient ones were always in the minority. It was always unpoular when people would say to YHWH's children that they had to get back to following the law and it's the same today. The Bible talks about the remnant being saved. I.e. a few.

Yeshua said:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


People will call Yeshua Lord but Yeshua will say that he never knew them. This even highlights those that will enter the kingdom of heaven amongst those who call him Lord, the one's who do his father's will. The one's who follow his father's law. When it says those who work iniquity it actually should say those who break the commandments of YHWH. That is what the word mean in the original Greek.

Obedience is so important:


Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

James 1:25
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


If you say you know Yeshua but you don't follow his commandments then you are a liar. Yeshua says himself in Matthew 7:21-23 that he doesn't know many who call him Lord. It's really obvious.


Romans 8:1
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5-10
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 7:14, 22, 25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[intermentals]

Heb. 8
13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The old covenant included the Jewish laws and HE has made the first covenant obsolete and ready to disappear. It's pretty cut and dry.

The problem with the old covenant was men's hearts, not the law. The law is part of the new covenant. In fact it's written in our hearts. Men's hearts were hard to keeping the law and YHWH wrote it in our hearts so we wanted to please him. Every King of Israel had to write a copy of the Torah. Yeshua was obviously the same being a king of Israel. He wrote the law on our hearts. It is pretty cut and dry but you are taking verse completely out of context and twisting them to suit some crazy doctrine of lawlessness.

 

[rockytopva]

oops! Wrong post!

 

[Hentenza]

Yeah the obedient ones were always in the minority. It was always unpoular when people would say to YHWH's children that they had to get back to following the law and it's the same today. The Bible talks about the remnant being saved. I.e. a few.

Yeshua said:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


People will call Yeshua Lord but Yeshua will say that he never knew them. This even highlights those that will enter the kingdom of heaven amongst those who call him Lord, the one's who do his father's will. The one's who follow his father's law. When it says those who work iniquity it actually should say those who break the commandments of YHWH. That is what the word mean in the original Greek.

Those Jesus said He never knew are false prophets. Plucking verses out of the context will always lead to bad hermeunetics.

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Obedience is so important:


Acts 5:32
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.



Hebrews 5:9
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Revelation 12:17
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

James 1:25
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


If you say you know Yeshua but you don't follow his commandments then you are a liar. Yeshua says himself in Matthew 7:21-23 that he doesn't know many who call him Lord. It's really obvious.


Romans 8:1
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5-10
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Romans 7:14, 22, 25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Wow. Talk about verse mining.

Tell me, in John 14:15 who's commandments are we to follow? What are they?

 

[Hentenza]

The problem with the old covenant was men's hearts, not the law.

The law is part of the Torah which is the old covenant between God and Israel.

The law is part of the new covenant.

No such teaching in the NT.

In fact it's written in our hearts. Men's hearts were hard to keeping the law and YHWH wrote it in our hearts so we wanted to please him. Every King of Israel had to write a copy of the Torah. Yeshua was obviously the same being a king of Israel. He wrote the law on our hearts. It is pretty cut and dry but you are taking verse completely out of context and twisting them to suit some crazy doctrine of lawlessness.

lol Really?

2 Cor. 3
7 But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came [c]with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11 For if that which fades away was [d]with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


Christians are in the ministry of the Spirit which abounds in glory.



Gal. 3




23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a [ai]tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is [aj]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [ak]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [al]descendants, heirs according to promise.


The law remains as a tutor to bring people to Christ. In other words, if you have been justified by faith then you no longer need a tutor. Have you been justified by faith or are you still searching for Christ? Which one is it?

 

[intermentals]

You seem to be arbitrarily deciding which commandments are still in effect. You admit more than most, but for example you state that the law concerning menstruating women is done away with because sacrificial laws are done away with; yet a similar law is given for men who have a "night time emission". Nothing about this has to do with blood, and yet it made one unclean.

Note, also, that St. Paul continued to attend Temple and made Qorban (Acts 21:26) at least once. This was not an offering to atone for sin, but then again not all offerings were for sin; most were for other reasons--apparently then Paul had no trouble offering Qorban for purity, though we find that he only underwent the vow and subsequent offering as an act of good will toward certain other Jewish believers; not as though it were required of him.

If, therefore, certain qorbanot had nothing to do with appeasement/reconciliation due to sin, involving the shedding of blood--such as the grain offerings--then wouldn't even these forms of qorbanot be valid according to your reckoning?

If --
a) Paul himself is willing to offer qorban
and
b) There were forms of qorban that had nothing to do with reconciliation

then shouldn't it follow that if Torah is valid for Christians that Christians therefore are obligated to offer some forms of qorban? E.g. grain offerings

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not deciding arbitrarily. I'm deciding according to the scriptures. Judicial law is to be and always has been enforced by judges only. The scriptures say that Yeshua dealt with sin once and for all. It was his innocent blood that was shed and that we're covered by. You only had to be ceremonially clean to shed blood. Any laws that pertain to ceremonial cleaness (laws to do with emissions and menstruation for example) pertain to the shedding of blood. Again we're covered by Christ's blood.

Tbh I've not considered other types of offering but if they were still a valid part of the law then of course I'd do them and be blessed for doing so. That is a good point that I will consider. It would seem inconvenient but I've trusted YHWH this far and I'd trust him over that as well. I can say that since I've started going to church and learning the Torah on a Saturday, YHWH has really come alive in a completely fresh way and I've truly been blessed by it. It seemed inconvenient at first but YHWH knows what he's doing.

Paul conducted the purification ritual to prove that he wasn't saying the law was done away with. Not just to appease people he didn't have to. Peter is basically saying to him that they both know he's not teaching that but to make this show to prove it once and for all. This is a ridiculous debate to have when the issue is clearly dealt with Biblically in Acts 15 when it's decided that Christians should be told the basics and they should learn the rest on the Sabbath when the Torah is preached. The question of whether Christians should follow the law of Moses is actually dealt with then.

Over the Sabbath, it's clear that Saturday is the Sabbath because it's referred to as the Sabbath in the new testament. Sunday is referred to as the first day of the week.

 

[intermentals]

Those Jesus said He never knew are false prophets. Plucking verses out of the context will always lead to bad hermeunetics.

15 “Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

He identifies those he's talking about. Those who don't follow his father's laws. He's not talking about false prophets, he saying many will come to him professing to have done many things in his name and he will tell them to depart from him because they work lawlessness (as I said the word in Greek means those who break YHWH's laws). False prophets aren't going to say anything to him, they never called him Lord to begin with. Beyond that really not standing up to any serious scrutiny, he makes it clear who he's talking about in verse 21:


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Wow. Talk about verse mining.

Read those verses in context they say the same thing. If I was to post them all in context I doubty anyone would read them. If you have a problem with a verse I've quoted and don't think it's saying what I'm implying

Tell me, in John 14:15 who's commandments are we to follow? What are they?

It's not vague it says all the way through scripture to follow the law and that Yeshua is God.