A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality

[Bible Highlighter]

Eternal life and immortality are not the same.

Is there are a verse or passage in Scripture that teaches such a difference?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The same "numerics" has been used by Muslims to verify the Quran. One vs. in the Quran says that "the sun sets in a muddy pool."

I guarantee you that the level of numerics is a joke in the Quran by comparison to the Bible. My guess is that you really did not do your own homework on the topic of biblical numerics. If you did, you wouldn’t be speaking against the amazing mathematical miracles in the Bible. I would watch biblical numerics videos by Mike Hoggard, and Brandon Peterson.

I would start with these two videos:

If you are not in awe of God’s Word after watching the entirety of these videos, then you can talk. If not, you are only speaking out of that which you do not really understand. Most I find who speak against biblical numerics really did not research the topic to see if it has any merit to it. They just read some negative article or two, and BAM, that is their conclusion. They did not take the time to truly look to see if there is any stock in biblical numerics. They did not truly see how amazing it really is.

Metaphorically speaking: Most will just put their fingers in their ear and say, “La, la, la… I don’t want the numbers in the Bible to mean anything!”

 

[LW97Nils]

Is there are a verse or passage in Scripture that teaches such a difference?

Immortality Is Not Eternal Life – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Immortality Is Not Eternal Life – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org

By understanding words alone, you cannot call something "eternal life" if it is not eternal somehow. Take, for example, my interpretation of Matthew 25:46. When I say "eternal punishment" from this verse, it is in reference to a one-time punishment with eternal consequences. Yet, the idea of eternity is still there. According to the article, they say "eternal life" is not "eternal life" in the sense of immortality because we will die. But the article fails to consider that faithful believers (while facing temporary death in this life) will not remain dead forever. They have God's guaranteed promise of immortality. In addition, they have life in Christ, even while sleeping in Christ or in Abraham's bosom. While abiding in Christ, they always have the immortality that He provides.

While there is an actual immortality event that will happen to faithful believers in the future, which takes place with the "Caught Up" event (1 Corinthians 15:52-53) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-18), this is a guaranteed promise by God for those who currently have life or eternal life (immortality). In one sense, we are being raised (resurrected) at the "Caught Up" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. I believe this will be partaking of an immortal spiritual body (like that of angels). After that, believers will, at a later time, be physically resurrected (having flesh and blood again). These things are the promises of God, and a person abides in eternal life spiritually with God and continues to benefit in life that will be eternal (with the guaranteed promises of Immortality). So while they are slightly different meanings in applications, they are not all that much different from one another.

Meaning there are different levels or stages of eternal life. But it's still eternal life in the sense that it is immortal because believers always abide in spiritual life while remaining in Christ (no matter where they are). To say that those who died in Christ do not have spiritual life (which is eternal) is to be misinformed. Paul says,

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." (Philippians 1:21).

What exactly is Paul gaining?

I would recommend meditating on the following verses, my friend.

Jesus said:
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" (John 11:26).

Jesus said:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death." (John 8:51).

Jesus said:
"This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever."

Jesus said:
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:15).

Paul said,
"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 6:11).

Side Note:

Granted, that said, I do recognize that I say that the words like "for ever" do not always mean forever in the Bible. I say this because to say so otherwise when it comes to the punishment of the wicked or the punishment of certain cities sets up contradictions in the Bible. Therefore, it must be metaphorical or read in a way that is forever only in context as long as something exists. For example, A husband can tell his wife that they will be together forever, but he does not mean that literally in the sense that they will both be immortal. It is only in context while they are alive on the Earth (is what he meant).

I say this because both Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 (Which reference the devil) speak of his destruction or annihilation. In addition, the city of Edom from Isaiah 34:10 says the burning pitch will go on night and day. The city of Edom's smoke will go up forever, which cannot mean "for all eternity" because Jesus said Heaven and Earth would pass away (Matthew 24:25), and Revelation 21:1 says the Earth has passed away (Which is a future event that still has yet to happen).

 

[DavidPT]

Eternal life and immortality are not the same.

Take satan, for instance. I'm convinced that God initially made satan immortal, thus why the 2nd death can't apply to him, but being tormented without end can. In order for there to be a 2nd death, this means a first death has to precede it. And since satan has never experienced a first death, how is it then reasonable that he can experience a 2nd death? Therefore, pertaining to the LOF and the fate of those cast into it, being tormented without end and a 2nd death, these can't mean the same thing.

Involving Revelation 20:11-15, which clearly isn't pertaining to the judgment involving Revelation 20:10 nor Revelation 19:20, nowhere in verses 11-15 does it then say of humans cast into the LOF during the great white throne judgment, this---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Because if it did say that in verses 11-15, I would not be arguing annihilation in regards to humans, I would be arguing ECT in regards to humans, since that is what I'm arguing in regards to Revelation 20:10, not annihilation of satan, but never ending torment for satan, just like the text clearly and plainly says.

The question is, using satan as example, and that if he can never die, and that God bestowed him with immortality in his beginning, and that initially satan was on God's good side until he rebelled, which might mean satan was given eternal life from the get go, except he doesn't get to spend the entirety of it in bliss because he chose to rebel, except you reason that eternal life and immortality are not the same. Of course they are the same, the following, for one, proves it.

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Who is it that verse 53 and 54 are being applied to? The saved that are promised eternal life? Or both the saved and the lost? Obviously, it is only the former not the latter. Context undeniably proves that, because if we apply this to the lost as well, we then have to apply verse 57 to the lost since that verse is pertaining to those fulfilling verses 52-54. It is not remotely reasonable to apply verse 57 to the lost as well, as if anyone cast into the LOF, this describes them and their fate---But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Take satan, for instance. I'm convinced that God initially made satan immortal, thus why the 2nd death can't apply to him,

While angels are described as being immortal in Scripture, that does not mean God does not have the power to destroy them.

but being tormented without end can. In order for there to be a 2nd death, this means a first death has to precede it. And since satan has never experienced a first death, how is it then reasonable that he can experience a 2nd death?

In the Garden, Satan is described as a serpent. Satan is also described as the King of Tyre. The serpent that Satan inhabited in the Garden may have possibly died already, or it will die in the future. The king of Tyre is most certainly dead. It’s possible that many or even all of Satan’s minions possessed people to the point of killing their hosts (i.e., sucide). The demons that possessed the swine had perished. The beast and the false prophet are definitely demons and they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So these demons definitely died in the physical body of a men (being cast alive into the Lake of Fire). But even if Satan and his minions did not experience a first death, the term appears to be in context and in view to humans. It is also possible that the devil and his minions could be killed and raised up again with the resurrection of the damned to be judged and then destroyed for good, too.

Therefore, pertaining to the LOF and the fate of those cast into it, being tormented without end and a 2nd death, these can't mean the same thing.

Involving Revelation 20:11-15, which clearly isn't pertaining to the judgment involving Revelation 20:10 nor Revelation 19:20, nowhere in verses 11-15 does it then say of humans cast into the LOF during the great white throne judgment, this---and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Because if it did say that in verses 11-15, I would not be arguing annihilation in regards to humans, I would be arguing ECT in regards to humans, since that is what I'm arguing in regards to Revelation 20:10, not annihilation of satan, but never ending torment for satan, just like the text clearly and plainly says.

The question is, using satan as example, and that if he can never die, and that God bestowed him with immortality in his beginning, and that initially satan was on God's good side until he rebelled, which might mean satan was given eternal life from the get go, except he doesn't get to spend the entirety of it in bliss because he chose to rebel, except you reason that eternal life and immortality are not the same. Of course they are the same, the following, for one, proves it.

First, I just do not see it as consistent to use the words “for ever” and “ever” in Revelation 14:11 as being different than the words in “for ever” and “ever” in Revelation 20:10. Both sets of words are possibly either symbolic of destruction from Isaiah 34:10, or it means “To great extent, or degree” as defined in the English dictionary. These words “for ever” and “ever” could have another meaning (like ages), but it definitely is not referring to eternity (Because that would set up multiple contradictions in Scripture).

Second, the Bible teaches…

The Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19​

​

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”​

19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

• Ezekiel 28:12-18

​

12 “...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.​

13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.​

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.​

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.​

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.​

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.​

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”​

​

Three, the Bible also teaches…

The Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

Now, stop and think for a moment. Again, if the last enemy to be DESTROYED is “death,” then logic dictates that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, too. This means that wicked mankind, and the devil and his minions will also be destroyed, as well. For they are also God’s enemies!

Four, Hebrews 2:14 says,

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him
that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Who is it that verse 53 and 54 are being applied to? The saved that are promised eternal life? Or both the saved and the lost? Obviously, it is only the former not the latter. Context undeniably proves that, because if we apply this to the lost as well, we then have to apply verse 57 to the lost since that verse is pertaining to those fulfilling verses 52-54. It is not remotely reasonable to apply verse 57 to the lost as well, as if anyone cast into the LOF, this describes them and their fate---But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

I agree with what you stated above here. Immortality and eternal life are the same. But I believe words like “put on Immortality” are describing a different stage or step in the believer’s eternal life journey (Which in my view is describing the “Caught Up” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. In this “Caught Up” event: Believers will be receiving bodies like that of angels that are immortal. Then when the New Earth emerges (After the Judgment and the Millennium), these believers will be raised physically with flesh and blood human bodies.

 

[LW97Nils]

While angels are described as being immortal in Scripture, that does not mean God does not have the power to destroy them.



In the Garden, Satan is described as a serpent. Satan is also described as the King of Tyre. The serpent that Satan inhabited in the Garden may have possibly died already, or it will die in the future. The king of Tyre is most certainly dead. It’s possible that many or even all of Satan’s minions possessed people to the point of killing their hosts (i.e., sucide). The demons that possessed the swine had perished. The beast and the false prophet are definitely demons and they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. So these demons definitely died in the physical body of a men (being cast alive into the Lake of Fire). But even if Satan and his minions did not experience a first death, the term appears to be in context and in view to humans. It is also possible that the devil and his minions could be killed and raised up again with the resurrection of the damned to be judged and then destroyed for good, too.



First, I just do not see it as consistent to use the words “for ever” and “ever” in Revelation 14:11 as being different than the words in “for ever” and “ever” in Revelation 20:10. Both sets of words are possibly either symbolic of destruction from Isaiah 34:10, or it means “To great extent, or degree” as defined in the English dictionary. These words “for ever” and “ever” could have another meaning (like ages), but it definitely is not referring to eternity (Because that would set up multiple contradictions in Scripture).

Second, the Bible teaches…

The Destruction of the Devil:

• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19​

​

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!”​

19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

• Ezekiel 28:12-18

​

12 “...Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.​

13 “Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.​

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.​

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.​

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.​

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.​

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”​

​

Three, the Bible also teaches…

The Destruction of the Entity or Power Known As "Death":

• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”​

Now, stop and think for a moment. Again, if the last enemy to be DESTROYED is “death,” then logic dictates that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, too. This means that wicked mankind, and the devil and his minions will also be destroyed, as well. For they are also God’s enemies!

Four, Hebrews 2:14 says,

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood,
he also himself likewise took part of the same;
that through death he might destroy him
that had the power of death, that is, the devil” (Hebrews 2:14).



I agree with what you stated above here. Immortality and eternal life are the same. But I believe words like “put on Immortality” are describing a different stage or step in the believer’s eternal life journey (Which in my view is describing the “Caught Up” event in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. In this “Caught Up” event: Believers will be receiving bodies like that of angels that are immortal. Then when the New Earth emerges (After the Judgment and the Millennium), these believers will be raised physically with flesh and blood human bodies.

I do agree with you tho that Christians do not go directly to heaven after death.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I do agree with you tho that Christians do not go directly to heaven after death.

It is good we can agree on certain things. I see that Christians who die will only go to Heaven after the "Caught Up" event, as mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18. I believe this is where they receive a spiritual body like that of angels that is immortal (Which is what 1 Corinthians 15 and other verses by Jesus say).

This also includes the fact that they will receive a new flesh and blood body on the New Earth (After the Millennium and the Judgment).

 

[Der Alte]

5. Explaining Revelation 20:10:​

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.” (Revelation 20:10).​

First, the devil, the beast and the false prophet are demons. So even if one wanted to make this verse about eternal torment for faithless sinful mankind, the context in view here is in reference to demons and not wicked or faithless human beings.​

Second, some suggest that the beast and the false prophet have been hanging down in the Lake of Fire for about 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire (Suggesting that one remains alive while in the Lake of Fire for a very long time). While I do not discount the possibility that the beast and the false prophet may be alive down within the Lake of Fire, there is also the possibility that they are simply corpses by the time Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, as well. How so? Well, Scripture can refer to the dead or the deceased with the word “are.” Isaiah says,​

“They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.” (Isaiah 26:14).​

Also, while God certainly may have many reasons to send Satan into the bottomless pit for 1,000 years before releasing him one last time at the end of the Millennium, why didn’t God just cast Satan into the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years along with the beast and the false prophet instead? Could it be that such a place is indeed a place of eventual destruction or annihilation? Fires in our real world teach us that they consume things.​

But what about the part in Revelation 20:10 that says,​

“the devil… shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever”​

While I believe the KJV is the perfect Word of God for our day, and I prefer to simply look up words in older English dictionaries, I believe sometimes the original languages can on rare occasions give us a deeper and or expanded meaning.​

The word “ever” repeated twice within Revelation 20:10 (in the KJV) is taken from the Greek word “aiōn.” According to Strong’s, this word is defined as a period or age (Which from our perspective can seem like an eternity).​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 is saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented day and night for... "ages, and ages."; Here are a few translations that express something similar:​

"for the eons of the eons." ~ Concordant Literal New Testament​

"for the ages of the ages." ~ Darby Bible Translation.​

"for the aeons of the aeons." ~ The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson​

In other words, Revelation 20:10 could be potentially saying that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet may be tormented day and night for the purpose of the Ages and Ages (or the Ages of Ages). Meaning the Ages and Ages that are past! They are being punished day and night for the evil that they committed during the past Ages and Ages here on this Earth. Fair justice. For the word "for" can also be defined as "because" (i.e. the purpose of) within the English language.​

Revelation 20:10 Darby​

"And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] both the beast and the false prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night for [the purpose of] the ages of ages."​

For the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are all demons who have tormented mankind for ages and ages. So they will be cast into the Lake of Fire and brimstone and will be tormented day and night and not for all eternity.​

So the "ages and ages" could be talking about "past ages" and not "future ages."​

This is further supported by the fact that Paul says the last enemy to be destroyed is death (1 Corinthians 15:26), which suggests that there were other enemies of God that the Lord destroyed before this last enemy. This then ties in nicely with Revelation 21:4 saying, "the former things have passed away." These former things that have passed away are: tears, sorrow, crying, death, and pain. For the first heaven and first earth will pass away and a new heaven and a new earth will take its place (Revelation 21:1). For Jesus says, "I make all things new." (Revelation 21:5).​

Now, does this mean I do not believe the English words “for ever, and ever” in my King James Bible? Perish the thought. Most certainly not! I believe the Word of God.​

I believe the devil will be tormented day and night for ever, and ever, but this is only within the context for as long as the Lake of Fire exists and it is only in context to how long the devil will exist as a conscious active being. Remember Philemon 1:15? Did Onesimus return to his master Philemon for all eternity or forever? Is Onesimus and Philemon still alive today? No, of course not. Onesimus returned forever to Philemon in context to while they were both alive on the Earth alone.​

Furthermore, if we were to look again at Revelation 14:11 it says the smoke of their torment ascends for ever, and ever. Smoke of torment ascending for ever and ever” is a metaphorical phrase from Isaiah 34:10 that says,​

“It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.” (Isaiah 34:10).​

Notice the words "night nor day shall not be quenched” in the verse.​

Surely the smoke of the city of Edom will not go up for all eternity because Jesus says Heaven and Earth will pass away (Matthew 24:35) and Revelation 21:1 says, “the first heaven and the first earth were passed away.” You cannot have eternal cities burning forever on a planet that passes away. It doesn’t make any sense. So this lets us know that the words "for ever and ever" and “night and day” is in reference to the language for destruction. This is how I believe that we are to interpret Scripture. We interpret Scripture with Scripture (Isaiah 28:10) (Acts of the Apostles 17:10-11). If we are to be consistent with how biblical language is used. When in reference to punishment, the words “for ever and ever" is in reference to destruction from Isaiah 34:10. That is how these words are described and setting the tone of how we should understand these phrases or words. Yes, Scripture says in Revelation how God lives for ever and ever, but this is not in context to punishment but to God. Take for example the word "know" in the Bible. It can mean "having knowledge" like in Genesis 3:5. But used in another context, it can refer to physical intimacy like in Genesis 19:5. The dictionary has several definitions for the word "ever." Besides the word "ever" meaning eternal, it also defines the word "ever" in this way, as well.​

Ever: ​

(adverb):​

To a great extent or degree.​

Dictionary Source:​

Ever dictionary definition | ever defined​

So while this may not be 100% biblical fact, it may possibly mean in Revelation 20:10 as saying,​

“...shall be tormented day and night for ever [a great extent] and ever [degree].”​

Also, the beast and the false prophets are demons in Revelation 20:10, and not wicked men. The false prophet in Revelation 16:13-14 is implied to be the one who is the second beast who rose up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-15). So even if one wanted to take the words for ever and ever literally in Revelation 20:10, it is referring to demons and not wicked humans.​

1 Corinthians 15:26 says,​

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”​

If we believe the last enemy to be destroyed is death, this strongly implies that there are other previous enemies of God who will also be destroyed, as well.​

This is EXACTLY what we see described of the devil in Ezekiel 28.​

“By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.” (Ezekiel 28:16).​

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The verb translated "tormented" is a plural verb meaning all 3 were tormented day ands night for ever and ever.
That a word is occasionally used figuratively or hyperbolically does NOT change the inherent meaning. Herod was not literally a fox although Jesus called him one. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. stone. Peter was not literally Satan when Jesus called him that. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.
The covering cherub of Ezekiel was destroyed about 700-800 years before John.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The verb translated "tormented" is a plural verb meaning all 3 were tormented day ands night for ever and ever.

Well, the misunderstanding on Revelation 20:10 is not with the word “tormented,” but it involves the words “for ever, and ever.”

I believe these words “for ever, and ever” could potentially be saying “to great extent and degree.”

So the devil was cast into the Lake of Fire, etcetera and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (i.e., to a great extent and degree).

American Heritage Dictionary - 3rd definition.

Source:

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

The American Heritage Dictionary entry: ever

ahdictionary.com

That a word is occasionally used figuratively or hyperbolically does NOT change the inherent meaning. Herod was not literally a fox although Jesus called him one. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. stone. Peter was not literally Satan when Jesus called him that. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.

But some people do read the Bible’s metaphors as being literal, though (And therefore, they create false misunderstanding of the Biblical text).

My thread here illustrates this example:

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent.

Biblical Metaphors Shed Light on Ham's Sin in Noah's Tent. Introduction: The Bible has metaphors (or similitudes) within it. For Hosea 12:10 says, "I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets." To not understand...

www.christianforums.com

In other words, if people misunderstand what happened in the story of Noah and Ham by not understanding the metaphors involved (Which I believe were used to protect the reputation of Noah’s family), then folks can do so in other places in the Bible.

The covering cherub of Ezekiel was destroyed about 700-800 years before John.

Orthodox New Testament : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Eastern / Orthodox Bible: New TestamentBased on the Septuagint and the Patriarchal Text

archive.org

Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 are very similar to each other. In fact, they both coincidentally start in verse 12 (When they each speak clearly of Lucifer or Satan).

First, in Ezekiel 28, there are things listed of this King of Tyre that can only be possible if it is Satan or an angelic being.

#1. This king was in the Garden of Eden.
#2. This king was called the Anointed Cherub (i.e., angel).
#3. This king was upon the holy mountain of God.
#4. This king was perfect in his ways. Yet, man is born into the bondage of sin because of Adam’s transgression.

Second, Ezekiel 28:13 says, ”Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald,…”

This is important to understand because the name “Lucifer” from Isaiah 14 means “light bearer.” If you ever went to a museum that had a display of gems before, you could see the beautiful light refracting inside the gems and making them shine. It says in Ezekiel 28:13 that he had precious gemstones on himself. These gemstones refract light in their environment. These gemstones are like little light bearers. How fitting for the name of Lucifer, which means “light bearer.” Scripture says that Satan appears as an angel of light.

 

[Der Alte]

@Bible Highlighter
Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios" as "eternal."

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” twice. If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition here “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@Bible Highlighter
Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios" as "eternal."

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” twice. If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition here “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

The Bible has homonyms within it.

What is a homonym?

Here is an example:

“The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.”​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English Bibles and in the original languages.

If one looks at an English dictionary, it is generally filled with multiple definitions for one word and not just one. It is the same if one looks at a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon / Concordance. For example: If one goes to BlueLetterBible and searches a keyword in the Bible, and they select the Strong's feature at the top (in the desktop version), they can click on the Strong's number and see multiple sets of definitions and their different usages.

Now, you may be wondering if it is possible for homonyms to exist in the same sentence or paragraph in the Bible.

Yes, there is such an example.

It's the word "repent" (and its related verb forms) in the book of 1st Samuel:

As we can see from 1 Samuel 15:29, it basically says that God (the Strength of Israel) cannot repent. Then it says God (the Lord) repented that he made Saul king over Israel (1 Samuel 15:35 cf. 1 Samuel 15:11). In the same chapter, this sets up a contradiction if the word "repent" (in its different verb forms) is tied to having only one definition.

Side Note: The words in blue within brackets in 1 Samuel 15 above are my comments on the text.

As for John 3:15-16: The contrast is between eternal life vs. perish. If I tell you to make a piece of paper to perish, you will not keep that sheet of paper around, but you will destroy it by either lighting it on fire or dipping it in acid or something. However, when folks have an ECT mindset, somehow, things are different. They are trapped in a contradictory sphere of words.

Matthew 25:46 would be a better example for you - IMHO.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Both "everlasting" (everlasting punishment) is contrasted with "eternal" (eternal life) with Strong's G166 αἰώνιος (aiōnios). But "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 refers to the fact that it is a one-time punishment with everlasting consequences. How so? Well, the Bible describes how death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So this means if death is destroyed and it is cast into the "Lake of Fire," it is suggestive that the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction. In fact, Paul says there is a thing called "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The Lake of Fire is called the "second DEATH," and not eternal torture by fire. It's called the SECOND death because it is related to the first death because men's physical bodies perish in the grave. In addition, as I mentioned before, Jesus contrasts not to fear those who kill (destroy) the body but fear the ONE (i.e., Jesus) who is able to destroy (kill) both body and soul in Gehenna. So Jesus is able to destroy the soul (i.e., to eliminate it from existence just as the physical body of a man can be eliminated).

Also, the Bible talks about "eternal inheritance" in Hebrews 9:15. The same Greek word (G166) αἰώνιος (aiōnios) is used. However, obviously, we will not keep inheriting things ongoing daily for all eternity. We will inherit the Kingdom once. So "eternal inheritance" in Hebrews 9:15 refers to the fact that it is a one-time inheritance with eternal consequences. So it is not outside the realm of possibility to interpret "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 in a similar way. In fact, I believe it is the correct interpretation because Scripture forces us to that conclusion based on the fact that the Lake of Fire is a place that destroys things (Compare again Revelation 20:14 with 1 Corinthians 15:26).

 

[Der Alte]

The Bible has homonyms within it.
What is a homonym?
Here is an example:

“The bark of the dog echoed up the tree at the squirrel who was hanging on the bark of the tree at the top near the branches.”​

The word "bark" is the same word in spelling and pronunciation, but they each have two different meanings. These homonyms exist both in our English Bibles and in the original languages.
If one looks at an English dictionary, it is generally filled with multiple definitions for one word and not just one. It is the same if one looks at a Greek or Hebrew Lexicon / Concordance. For example: If one goes to BlueLetterBible and searches a keyword in the Bible, and they select the Strong's feature at the top (in the desktop version), they can click on the Strong's number and see multiple sets of definitions and their different usages.
Now, you may be wondering if it is possible for homonyms to exist in the same sentence or paragraph in the Bible.
Yes, there is such an example.
It's the word "repent" (and its related verb forms) in the book of 1st Samuel:

As we can see from 1 Samuel 15:29, it basically says that God (the Strength of Israel) cannot repent. Then it says God (the Lord) repented that he made Saul king over Israel (1 Samuel 15:35 cf. 1 Samuel 15:11). In the same chapter, this sets up a contradiction if the word "repent" (in its different verb forms) is tied to having only one definition.
Side Note: The words in blue within brackets in 1 Samuel 15 above are my comments on the text.
As for John 3:15-16: The contrast is between eternal life vs. perish. If I tell you to make a piece of paper to perish, you will not keep that sheet of paper around, but you will destroy it by either lighting it on fire or dipping it in acid or something. However, when folks have an ECT mindset, somehow, things are different. They are trapped in a contradictory sphere of words.
Matthew 25:46 would be a better example for you - IMHO.
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Both "everlasting" (everlasting punishment) is contrasted with "eternal" (eternal life) with Strong's G166 αἰώνιος (aiōnios). But "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 refers to the fact that it is a one-time punishment with everlasting consequences. How so? Well, the Bible describes how death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). 1 Corinthians 15:26 says the last enemy to be destroyed is death. So this means if death is destroyed and it is cast into the "Lake of Fire," it is suggestive that the Lake of Fire is a place of destruction. In fact, Paul says there is a thing called "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9). The Lake of Fire is called the "second DEATH," and not eternal torture by fire. It's called the SECOND death because it is related to the first death because men's physical bodies perish in the grave. In addition, as I mentioned before, Jesus contrasts not to fear those who kill (destroy) the body but fear the ONE (i.e., Jesus) who is able to destroy (kill) both body and soul in Gehenna. So Jesus is able to destroy the soul (i.e., to eliminate it from existence just as the physical body of a man can be eliminated).
Also, the Bible talks about "eternal inheritance" in Hebrews 9:15. The same Greek word (G166) αἰώνιος (aiōnios) is used. However, obviously, we will not keep inheriting things ongoing daily for all eternity. We will inherit the Kingdom once. So "eternal inheritance" in Hebrews 9:15 refers to the fact that it is a one-time inheritance with eternal consequences. So it is not outside the realm of possibility to interpret "everlasting punishment" in Matthew 25:46 in a similar way. In fact, I believe it is the correct interpretation because Scripture forces us to that conclusion based on the fact that the Lake of Fire is a place that destroys things (Compare again Revelation 20:14 with 1 Corinthians 15:26).

What may be true for Hebrew may or may no hold true for Greek. If you wish to give language instructions in Hebrew or Greek please quote the appropriate grammar or lexicon. I have lexicons and grammars for both. I am not too keen on the unsupported opinions of anonymous people online.
If God wants a fire to last for eternity, I'm certain He can do that since He created everything from nothing. The burning bush that Moses saw was not consumed. The furnace that Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego were thrown into did not harm them although it was heated 7 times more than usual and killed the soldiers outside the furnace.
.....A few figurative or hyperbolic uses of a word does not change its inherent meaning. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. Stone. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Peter was not literally the devl when Jesus called him satan.
Here are 3 vss. where Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios life" as "shall not perish." I have 17 more similar vss. "aionios" is never defined as a period less than eternal. I also have a similar list where "olam" is defined as "eternal" in the O.T.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

 

[LW97Nils]

What may be true for Hebrew may or may no hold true for Greek. If you wish to give language instructions in Hebrew or Greek please quote the appropriate grammar or lexicon. I have lexicons and grammars for both. I am not too keen on the unsupported opinions of anonymous people online.
If God wants a fire to last for eternity, I'm certain He can do that since He created everything from nothing. The burning bush that Moses saw was not consumed. The furnace that Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego were thrown into did not harm them although it was heated 7 times more than usual and killed the soldiers outside the furnace.
.....A few figurative or hyperbolic uses of a word does not change its inherent meaning. Herod was not literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not literally a stone when Jesus named him "Petros" i.e. Stone. The sons of John were not literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that. Peter was not literally the devl when Jesus called him satan.
Here are 3 vss. where Jesus, Himself, defines "aionios life" as "shall not perish." I have 17 more similar vss. "aionios" is never defined as a period less than eternal. I also have a similar list where "olam" is defined as "eternal" in the O.T.

John 10:28​

(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. By definition “aionion life” means eternal or everlasting life.

AMEN

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@LW97Nils

May I encourage you to check out the following verses from my list below?
All verses are taken from the King James Bible.

“Forever” (and Some of Its Related Synonyms) Does Not Always Mean ”For All Eternity”:

In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" (and some of its related synonyms) does not always mean "for all eternity" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “for all eternity,” but not always. Why do I say that?​

​

Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.​

​

In other words, the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean ”for all eternity” in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific temporal thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) does not mean, “for all eternity?”​

​

• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to the descendants of Israel “forever.” However, the Earth (Where Canaan resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).​

​

• Isaiah 34:9-10 mentions a city in the region of Idumea (of the people of Edom) and how its burning pitch will not be quenched night or day, and the smoke of that city will go up forever. However, again, the Earth (Where Idumea resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1). Note: Please pay special attention to this passage. It also mentions “night, “day” and “for ever and ever” just like Revelation 20:10.​

​

• The Israelites and their sons were to keep the Passover “forever” (Exodus 12:24).​

The Passover is a part of the laws of Moses. But Christians today are not under the Laws of Moses (Romans 6:14) (Acts 13:39) (Acts 15:1-24).​

​

• Exodus 27:21 says Aaron and his sons must keep the lamps burning as a statute (law) forever unto their generations (descendants). Exodus 28:43 says that Aaron and his sons must wear certain pieces of clothing when they enter the Tabernacle. This was to be a statute (law) unto Aaron and his sons forever. The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15). However, the Aaronic priesthood was temporary, and it was replaced by the priesthood order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:11-19).​

​

• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

​

• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).​

​

• God was to dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:12-13, 1 Kings 8:27), until -- the Temple was destroyed (2 Kings 25:8-17).​

​

• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9) and they are not to let others judge them if they don’t keep the Sabbath days (Colossians 2:14-17).​

​

• The fire for Israel's burnt offering (animal sacrifice) is never to be put out (Leviticus 6:12-13), and yet -- Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, and sat down on the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).​

​

• Jonah describes how the earth with her bars was about him forever when he was in the fish (Jonah 2:6), until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 1:17).​

​

• The forts and towers shall be for dens (animal habitations) for ever, until -- the Spirit is poured out (Isaiah 32:13-16).​

​

• The King James Bible, as well as many other translations, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6). This obviously would be only until his death.​

​

• Numbers 15:15 says that the animal sacrifices will be forever, but we clearly know this is not the case because Jesus has become our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) (1 Peter 1:19).​

​

• In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever. Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.​

​

So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). For example: A husband can say to his wife that he will be with her forever. But of course, this talking in context of "forever" as being here upon this Earth. In many cases, words such as "everlasting" or "forever" can be in context to a particular thing that is temporal within the Bible.

So how if this is the case, then how are you sure that the verses you are reading for ECT are correct?
Can you demonstrate the goodness or fair justice of ECT by using a real-world example?
These are questions or challenges given to those who believe in ECT that never really get answered directly with satisfactory answers.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
(I also adjusted some of his points on his list, as well).
Apttpteach

 

[Butch5]

Introduction:

I believe in “Dualistic Conditional Immortality,” and not “Traditional Conditional Immortality.” I used to believe in “Eternal Torment” (i.e. Eternal Conscious Torment) and even defended it at one time, but I have come to find this belief to be both unbiblical and immoral. I will provide one major real world example and lots of Scripture in my writing here to demonstrate why I believe this is so.

Conditional Immortality
(i.e. Traditional Conditional Immortality):

Lake of Fire:​

​

This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical. So when I refer to “Conditional Immortality” in a positive way, or when I refer to “Conditional Immortality verses” in support of my view of God’s punishment of the wicked, I am referring only to the Lake of Fire teaching portion only. For I do not hold to the Conditional Immortality Proponent’s viewpoint on hell.​

​

Hell:​

​

Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents believe that hell is just a metaphor, and they believe in a teaching called “soul sleep” (i.e. that the wicked will not know anything and sleep or not be aware of anything until the Judgment). I do not find their view on soul sleep to be biblical. Traditional Conditional Immortality Proponents also believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is just a fictional story used to teach a spiritual truth or lesson. However, I do not believe this view of hell is biblical.​

Dualistic Conditional Immortality:

Lake of Fire:​

​

This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked are either annihilated (erased from existence), or they are eventually destroyed or eliminated (after they are punished for a certain set amount of time in the Lake of Fire). I believe this view of the Lake of Fire is biblical.​

​

Hell:​

​

Dualistic Conditional Immortality Proponents believe hell is a very real and literal place. There are differing views among these types of believers on how hell is portrayed, but they all believe hell is literally real, and it is a place that no person would desire to be. It is a place of torments (Just as Scripture says). Some who hold to this view believe that hell is similar to that of the view portrayed in the Eternal Torment. They believe it is a place where the wicked are being burned in flames (tortured), and they are screaming from the pain of the flames, etc.; Others (like myself) believe that the rich man was not tormented by an intense earthly flame (that would cause great pain), but he was tormented by the heat of the flame near him, or he was tormented by an otherworldly flame that did not cause him to scream uncontrollably (like an earthly flame would do).​

Eternal Conscious Torment:

Lake of Fire:​

​

This is the view that after the Judgement, the wicked will burn alive and be tortured in the flames of the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Many have refused to come to the faith because they had a hard time accepting that God would torture people alive in flames for all eternity. It may surprise the reader that there is actually a very small number of verses that support the Eternal Torment view of the Lake of Fire (5 major ones to be exact, and there are a ton of verses in support of the wicked being annihilated as their final fate). With the exception of the Greek philosopher Epicureans, Greek philosophers (Such as Plato) generally taught of the soul's natural immortality-without God.​

​

Hell:​

​

The Eternal Conscious Torment View appears to teach that hell is a place of extreme torture where the wicked scream uncontrollably from the pain of being burned by the flames of hell. This appears to be the popular view in both churches and in secular movies in Hollywood. Churches have even reenacted this fictitious terrifying version of hell in this manner on Halloween calling them, “hell houses.” (satisfying people’s cravings to be afraid on Halloween with haunted houses; In my opinion, hell houses are a reenactment or imitation of pure evil that simply attempts to copy haunted houses which attempt to cater to the same wrong desires of this world).​

A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality:

I........Quick Definition.​

II.......Explaining Hell.​

III......God is into Fair Justice.​

IV......Forever Does Not Always Mean Forever.​

V.......Eternal Torment Verses Explained.​

VI......God Alone has Immortality.​

VII.....The Tree of Life.​

VIII....Verses on the Destruction of the Wicked.​

IX......Verses on Destruction of the Devil & Death.​

X.......Verses on Receiving Immortality.​

XI......Real World Example.​

XII.....Chart: Which View Allegorizes Scripture More?​

I. A Quick Definition:

Dualistic Conditional Immortality is the view as taught in the Bible that says that "hell" is a very real and literal place; But the wicked will perish (i.e. be erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire (After the Judgment).​

​

Some believe this annihilation in the Lake of Fire happens immediately (after being cast into it), and others believe it happens after a certain amount of time (after being punished in the Lake of Fire). I hold to the view that the wicked will be punished for a certain amount of time before they are annihilated.​

II. Explaining Hell:

In Luke 16:19-31, what folks fail to understand is that when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any Earth-like flames. How so? Well, if the Rich-man was engulfed entirely by Earth-like flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would have been screaming too loudly in pain to even hear Abraham (if such were the case). If he was able to hold down his pain of screaming (for a moment), he would be shouting to Abraham for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out. But does the text say the rich man was screaming? Surely not. Yet, this is how people today depict the wicked in hell. In fact, if a person was being engulfed by flames today in the real world, how likely are they to carry on a normal conversation with you? They wouldn't because they would be screaming too loudly from the pain.​

​

So we are faced with one of two possibilities here:​

​

Possibility #1. In Luke 16:24, when the Rich-man said, "...I am tormented in this flame," the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was either nearby him or in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman," - Genesis 2:23). Adam was not referring to his own flesh, with the word "this", but he was referring to Eve who was in front of him. In other words, it was the heat of the flame in front of the rich-man that made him uncomfortable or tormented.​

​

Possibility #2. The rich-man was in actual flames but it was not an Earthly flame to cause him any kind of extreme pain whereby he could carry on a normal conversation instead of screaming. The flame would have to be very mild in discomfort or it did not cause the same level of pain as a real flame would (as we know it).​

​

Now, do not misunderstand me, dear believer. I am not trying to minimize the true horrible nature of hell as we read about it in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Hell is bad. I believe hell is an extremely horrible place. We should warn others not to go there, and point them to the saving grace, and love of our Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. Surely the rich-man was not putting on an actor’s performance when he desired to warn his brothers about such a place. Hell is bad. Really bad. Nobody should want to go there. It is a place of torments. But we should not also paint a picture of hell that the Bible does not paint or teach, either. Some make hell out to be something that it is not specifically stated (Portraying it as an extreme torture chamber of men and women screaming uncontrollably). We simply do not know that this is so. If the Lord wanted to let us know that hell is a place of extreme torture and pain, and screaming, He would have given us this description in Scripture as such, but He didn’t. I believe it is well, when we do not go beyond what is written (Especially when that addition leans towards the negative side). Sure, we may guess as to what may be or not, but to officially say that hell is like this or that when the Bible has not said so, is to add to Scripture something that is not there. So please understand that even my explanations on what is happening to the rich man is not a hardcore facts in Scripture but mere possibilities to give comfort about what we know involving our Lord’s goodness and fair justice.​

III. God is into fair justice:

Luke 12:47-48 says,​

​

47 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.​

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."​

​

“Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal 1; knowing that ye [you-all] also have a Master in heaven.” (Colossians 4:1).​

​

1. equal: characterized by fairness (Source: 1913 Webster’s Dictionary).​

​

“Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” (Romans 9:14).​

​

Sir Arthur Conan Doyle once said,​

​

“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”​

​

In fact, the whole reason why Jesus went to the cross was to pay the price for our sins. If God was not into fair justice, He simply would not have needed to send His Son to pay the price for our sin and He could have simply just forgiven us with no payment for sin. But the Lord our God is a God of fair justice. So the Son was sent to die for you, and me. How bitter, and yet sweet that truth is. For it truly shows how truly loving and good the Lord is to us.​

I believe you've misrepresented Conditional Immortality. I hold to it and I don't believe soul sleep. I also understand that Hades or "Hell" as some call it is a literal place. I would submit that it is not as you say a place of torment, but rather is the grave. Conditional Immortality holds that the dead are in fact dead. They're not sleeping, or unconscious, or in some holding pattern, They're dead. They will remain dead until such time that they are resurrected. They will then be given either life or death.

You say you believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. In order to do so, you must believe in Dualism which is not a Biblical concept. It's actually a pagan concept that came into Christianity through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

 

[Butch5]

@LW97Nils

May I encourage you to check out the following verses from my list below?
All verses are taken from the King James Bible.

“Forever” (and Some of Its Related Synonyms) Does Not Always Mean ”For All Eternity”:

In fact, I believe why most hold to Eternal Torment is because they do not understand that the word "forever" (and some of its related synonyms) does not always mean "for all eternity" in the Bible. Sure, sometimes the word “forever” can mean “for all eternity,” but not always. Why do I say that?​

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Well, I heard a pastor once say that the best way to interpret the Bible is to let the Bible do the interpreting for you.​

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In other words, the word "forever" (and its related words) does not always mean ”for all eternity” in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific temporal thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) does not mean, “for all eternity?”​

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• In Genesis 13:15 the land of Canaan is given to the descendants of Israel “forever.” However, the Earth (Where Canaan resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1).​

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• Isaiah 34:9-10 mentions a city in the region of Idumea (of the people of Edom) and how its burning pitch will not be quenched night or day, and the smoke of that city will go up forever. However, again, the Earth (Where Idumea resides) will pass away (Matthew 24:35) (Revelation 21:1). Note: Please pay special attention to this passage. It also mentions “night, “day” and “for ever and ever” just like Revelation 20:10.​

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• The Israelites and their sons were to keep the Passover “forever” (Exodus 12:24).​

The Passover is a part of the laws of Moses. But Christians today are not under the Laws of Moses (Romans 6:14) (Acts 13:39) (Acts 15:1-24).​

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• Exodus 27:21 says Aaron and his sons must keep the lamps burning as a statute (law) forever unto their generations (descendants). Exodus 28:43 says that Aaron and his sons must wear certain pieces of clothing when they enter the Tabernacle. This was to be a statute (law) unto Aaron and his sons forever. The Aaronic Priesthood was to be an "everlasting" priesthood (Exodus 40:15). However, the Aaronic priesthood was temporary, and it was replaced by the priesthood order of Melchisedec (Hebrews 7:11-19).​

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• Israel's "affliction is incurable" (Jeremiah 30:12) until -- the Lord "will restore health" and heal her wounds (Jeremiah 30:17).​

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• Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting" until -- they “were scattered” (Habakkuk 3:6).​

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• God was to dwell in Solomon's Temple "forever" (1 Kings 8:12-13, 1 Kings 8:27), until -- the Temple was destroyed (2 Kings 25:8-17).​

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• The children of Israel were to "observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant" (Exodus 31:16)-until -- Paul states there remains "another day" of rest for the people of God (Hebrews 4:8-9) and they are not to let others judge them if they don’t keep the Sabbath days (Colossians 2:14-17).​

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• The fire for Israel's burnt offering (animal sacrifice) is never to be put out (Leviticus 6:12-13), and yet -- Christ offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, and sat down on the right hand of God (Hebrews 10:12).​

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• Jonah describes how the earth with her bars was about him forever when he was in the fish (Jonah 2:6), until--the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 1:17).​

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• The forts and towers shall be for dens (animal habitations) for ever, until -- the Spirit is poured out (Isaiah 32:13-16).​

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• The King James Bible, as well as many other translations, tells us that a bond slave was to serve his master "forever" (Exodus 21:6). This obviously would be only until his death.​

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• Numbers 15:15 says that the animal sacrifices will be forever, but we clearly know this is not the case because Jesus has become our Passover Lamb (1 Corinthians 5:7) (1 Peter 1:19).​

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• In Philemon 1:15: Paul mentioned to Philemon how Onesimus was going to return back to him (his master) forever. Obviously Onesimus is not an immortal man still living upon the Earth with his master (Philemon) today. He was returning back to his master forever within the context of their temporary lives upon the Earth.​

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So the word "forever" as used in the Bible is true. It does mean "forever" but it is talking in "forever" under the context of within either a temporary Covenant, or here upon this Earth (which is temporal), or within the Lake of Fire (Which is also a temporary place). For example: A husband can say to his wife that he will be with her forever. But of course, this talking in context of "forever" as being here upon this Earth. In many cases, words such as "everlasting" or "forever" can be in context to a particular thing that is temporal within the Bible.

So how if this is the case, then how are you sure that the verses you are reading for ECT are correct?
Can you demonstrate the goodness or fair justice of ECT by using a real-world example?
These are questions or challenges given to those who believe in ECT that never really get answered directly with satisfactory answers.


Source used:
(Please take note that I do not agree with everything these Christian authors believe, say, or do).
(I also adjusted some of his points on his list, as well).
Apttpteach

I would submit that the word "forever" does always mean forever. The problem is that the Greek and Hebrew words that are translated forever, do not mean forever. They mean an age.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe you've misrepresented Conditional Immortality. I hold to it and I don't believe soul sleep. I also understand that Hades or "Hell" as some call it is a literal place. I would submit that it is not as you say a place of torment, but rather is the grave. Conditional Immortality holds that the dead are in fact dead. They're not sleeping, or unconscious, or in some holding pattern, They're dead. They will remain dead until such time that they are resurrected. They will then be given either life or death.

You say you believe in Dualistic Conditional Immortality. In order to do so, you must believe in Dualism which is not a Biblical concept. It's actually a pagan concept that came into Christianity through Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism.

I did not invent the term “Dualistic Conditional Immortality.” If my memory serves me correctly, I got it from RethinkingHell.com. However, they appeared to have erased the article or forum discussion that I had seen it on back in 2015 or so. So if you don’t like the term, I cannot help that. Somebody on that website came up with the term.

I just believe the Bible in regards to the story of Lazarus and the Richman. Fictional stories in the Bible do not use real people like Abraham, and name an actual place, etcetera. You just don’t like the idea of hell being a place of torment, and so you allegorize it. It’s really that simple. There really is nothing to discuss.

I am also not incorrect for saying that Traditional Conditional Immortality Christians believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is just a fictional story. They don’t believe in a literal fiery place called Hades or hell. That’s what I am referring to when I say that they think “hell” is a metaphor. I am not speaking from their distorted perspective in that they think it is referring to the grave or some place else.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I would submit that the word "forever" does always mean forever. The problem is that the Greek and Hebrew words that are translated forever, do not mean forever. They mean an age.

Words can have nuances of meaning or different expressions.
I am not against “ever” meaning “age.”
In the American Heritage Dictionary it defines the word “ever” as: “To a great extent or degree.” If you take this definition as meaning in regards to time then it would be saying the same thing as an age. So ”ever” is not a wrong translation. It may not be as clear, but that does not change the fact that it is not true. I believe the King James Bible is the Word of God. You may not have a perfect standard and that’s okay. I am not here to convince you. From my understanding on what you said to me once (using other words): You believe Jesus is some kind of created god, and the Holy Spirit is not the third distinct person of the Trinity. You appear to believe in two god like beings. One is eternal (the Father), and one is created (The Word or Jesus). At least that is what you implied by your words to me last time we spoke by email. However, I am not really interested in having discussions with those who deny the traditional view of the Godhead or Trinity.

The Lord our God is one God in substance and yet He also exists as three distinct persons (i.e., the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost - See: 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible).

 

[Butch5]

I did not invent the term “Dualistic Conditional Immortality.” If my memory serves me correctly, I got it from RethinkingHell.com. However, they appeared to have erased the article or forum discussion that I had seen it on back in 2015 or so. So if you don’t like the term, I cannot help that. Somebody on that website came up with the term.

I just believe the Bible in regards to the story of Lazarus and the Richman. Fictional stories in the Bible do not use real people like Abraham, and name an actual place, etcetera. You just don’t like the idea of hell being a place of torment, and so you allegorize it. It’s really that simple. There really is nothing to discuss.

I am also not incorrect for saying that Traditional Conditional Immortality Christians believe the story of Lazarus and the Richman is just a fictional story. They don’t believe in a literal fiery place called Hades or hell. That’s what I am referring to when I say that they think “hell” is a metaphor. I am not speaking from their distorted perspective in that they think it is referring to the grave or some place else.

Hi BH,

If we're going to "Rethink" Hell, shouldn't we do it from a Biblical perspective? Shouldn't we look at what the Bible has to say on the subject rather than what a forum thread or website has to say about it? Let's consider a few things from Scripture. How could people suffer in this fiery place people call Hell. Wouldn't they have to be alive after they were dead? If people are dead, how are they alive. The idea that the dead live on after death doesn't come from Scripture, it comes from Greek Philosophy and Gnosticism. This idea says that man is something other than human. It claims that his spirit and/or soul lives on after death. However, that doesn't fit with Scripture. Let's look at what Moses said about the creation of man.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.

According to Moses, God created man from the dust of the ground and breathed His breath into the man. These two combined to form a living soul. We can see from this that a soul consists of both the breath of God and the man or flesh body. Thus, a soul cannot exist apart from the body. The breath or spirit is something of God Himself and not something of man. It's clear from this that when God's breath or spirit of life leaves the body, the soul ceases to exist, and the body decays and returns to the dust. There is nothing left to live on. What did God say about man's death?

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:17–19.

Here God said that Adam was dust. This isn't the only place God describes man.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 6:2–3.

Here God says that man is flesh. If man is flesh, as God said, and the flesh dies, the man no longer exists.

Regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man. it is a parable or an allegory. The claim that Jesus never used literal names in a parable is actually a fallacy called an Argument from Silence. John said that Jesus did so many things that he supposed that if it was all written down the world could not contain the books.

24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 21:24–25.

This may be hyperbole, but the point is that Jesus did many things. Compare, the world could not contain the books, with the four short Gospels we have recorded, and I think it's pretty clear that what we have is a drop in the bucket of the things Jesus did and spoke. So, to claim He never used names in a parable simply cannot be established as fact. What we can establish as fact is that He didn't use names in any of the parables we have recorded in our Bibles except that of Lazarus and the Rich Man. However, as we see that's a very limited selection of what Jesus did and spoke.

Let us also consider who the parable was addressed to.

14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. 15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. 16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. 17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 16:14–18.

We can see from this that Jesus is addressing the Pharisees. It's likely the Scribes were there also. How did Jesus address the unbelieving Jews?

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:10–15.

34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 13:34–35.

Here we find that Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables. Mathew says that without a parable Jesus didn't speak to them. We can conclude from this that Jesus' words to the Pharisees were parables. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man was directed at the Pharisees; thus, it must be a parable.

Now, let us consider the parable itself. Why might Jesus use a name in a parable? Back in Biblical times names were often everyday words. Jesus' name for instance, Yeshua, was the word for salvation. The word Lazarus was the Greek form of the Hebrew word Eleazar. Notice the first to letters, "El" this represents God. The word literally means, "God is my help" or "God help". The Pharisees knew this. Whoever Jesus is indicating Lazarus to be, He is indicating that God helped this person. But we're given something more than just a name. We are given a lot of details. This parable is more detailed than the typical parable. Why might that be? Maybe the name Lazarus and all of the details are pertinent to the story. Consider the details. The Rich man was rich. The priesthood (Pharisees and Scribes) was rich. the Rich Man was dressed in purple and fine linen. The Priesthood was dressed in purple and fine linen. The Rich Man fared sumptuously; the Priesthood fared sumptuously. The Rich Man had five brothers. The Priesthood is from the tribe of Levi, who had five brothers. Consider Lazarus. He was poor, Jesus was poor. Lazarus was laid at the Rich Man's gate. Jesus was laid at the Jews gate, metaphorically. He came to the Jews. The Rich Man neglected Lazarus. The Jews rejected Jesus. The dogs licked Lazarus' sores. They comforted or accepted him. The Jews called the Gentiles dogs. The Jews rejected Jesus, while the Gentiles accepted Him. Lazarus was carried by angels to his father's bosom. Jesus was carried by angels to His Father's bosom. John said that Jesus is in the bosom of the Father.

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 1:17–18.

Surely all of these details are not a coincidence. Jesus was giving a parable about the destruction or death of the Priesthood, thus the use of Hades, the grave. The Priesthood was going to the grave. Note Jesus' words just prior to the parable.

16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Lk 16:16.

The Law and the prophets were until John. In other words, you Pharisees, your time is up. Your reign is over. It's going to the grave. Thus, the use of hade, the grave, in the parable. The name Lazarus means God help. God helped Jesus. Psalm 22 talks about the crucifixion and God helping Jesus. There's a lot more that can be said on this parable, but this is getting long.

Here's something else to consider. In Scripture, when people are said to be suffering in fire it's in Gehenna, not hades. There are only two passages of Scripture that speak of someone suffering burning in hades. The first mention of this is in Deuteronomy.

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful,
And hast forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them,
Because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them,
I will see what their end shall be:
For they are a very froward generation,
Children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
They have provoked me to anger with their vanities:
And I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people;
I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger,
And shall burn unto the lowest hell,
And ||shall consume the earth with her increase,
And set on fire the foundations of the mountains.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Dt 32:18–22.

God is angry with Israel and said a fire is kindled in His anger and it will burn to the lowest hades. The Rich Man is an Israelite. The Priesthood consists of Israelites. We know this passage is talking about Christ's day because the apostle Paul quotes verse 21 and applies it to his day. We see from this that the fire that the Rich Man is suffering is not literal fire but rather God's anger against Israel, thus the destruction of the Priesthood.

To claim this parable is about people be tortured after they die is nonsensical. Nowhere do the Scriptures tell us that the wicked will burn in hades, it's always Gehenna where the wicked burn.

There's a lot more that can be said on this parable. It's taken from four Old Testament passages which the Scribes adnd Pharisees would have been familiar with.