American Tract Society & the American Sunday School Union Agree ~

[Leaf473]

To be clear, all the permission to have meat from animals that there was ever from God is Noachian, that from the time of Noah, that is the only permission for anyone to have meat from animals. It is what the Bible readers who use meat from animals claim the permission from God for, because that is what the Bible has, for any yet using it, of any human people. It had all meat from slaughtered animals ever permitted to only be with the blood removed from it. The law of Moses was not changing it, with more standards from the law, Jesus didn't, and the apostles affirmed it for believers, in Acts 15.

Assuming the standards being met in the industries is not wise. We do have responsibilities to animals which we use to actually check, Proverbs 12:10 does give us leave from that. I can't speak the same issue with you using your own animal as I don't know you like that for making any observation, but this does apply to the demand from us with what we buy at stores. Economic demand drives the industries and they could not continue just as they do without any business.

There just wasn't much about milk in the Bible. In most of those times milk wasn't so commonly used.

I make really nice meals and I would enjoy talking about that.

The observation of Veganuary is an opportunity for trying out foods without animal products for this month, without feeling like there is any commitment further than that. I say it can be that healthy way, which I know from Forks Over Knives, which is good for avoiding cancers, heart attacks or strokes from clogging arteries, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and a great list of other possible problems to health and well-being. With all the other important reasons to not have animal products, why not give more thought to trying that out?

I would try to be helpful for it, and I can respond through private messages too.

Veganuary is really a great time to try out what I am saying can have you eat in the healthiest way. There are helpful sites for those trying out with Veganuary, and there are delicious meals that can be found, like at www.forksoverknives.com. See the documentary if you can, too. With the health we can work on, the issues to all the animals who suffer because of us though it is not needed, and the issues to this world, why not? Serving our belly to satisfy desires is not what we are called to do. The addictive behavior can be overcome. I know that for myself.

Thank you for the interesting information.

I regret the long response time. My phone broke. I was able to get another one
(used on eBay for only $25 )
but it has its own set of issues. My current plan is to try to respond to all posts written to me, but there may be delays.
_________________
I don't want to beat this into the ground, and I think we may have talked about this already:
It looks to me like in some places the law of Moses goes beyond permission into imperative.

"This is the law of the sin offering: in the place where the burnt offering is killed, the sin offering shall be killed before the Lord. It is most holy. The priest who offers it for sin shall eat it. It shall be eaten in a holy place, in the court of the Tent of Meeting."
Leviticus 6

Peace be with you, my friend and brother!

 

[FredVB]

There were commandments for eating meat because there were the sacrifices and meat was still being eaten, the commandments were centered around the sacrifices putting parameters on what meat from it could still be of use for. Not that all meat had to be eaten, but it would not be available to anyone if not then for who was appointed for it. But being the sacrificial system, God left that in place only for what Christ came for to accomplish, as he did. Mention of eating meat was in connection to sacrifice all the time. Only Christ was accomplishing what sacrifice was supposed to which with animals they used God was foreshadowing, while doing what could be done to limit it. And God did, passages show sacrifices were not pleasing to God. We know Christ came and animals really do not have to die for us, we do not really need that. We can grow further spiritually.

 

[Leaf473]

There were commandments for eating meat because there were the sacrifices and meat was still being eaten, the commandments were centered around the sacrifices putting parameters on what meat from it could still be of use for. Not that all meat had to be eaten, but it would not be available to anyone if not then for who was appointed for it. But being the sacrificial system, God left that in place only for what Christ came for to accomplish, as he did. Mention of eating meat was in connection to sacrifice all the time. Only Christ was accomplishing what sacrifice was supposed to which with animals they used God was foreshadowing, while doing what could be done to limit it. And God did, passages show sacrifices were not pleasing to God. We know Christ came and animals really do not have to die for us, we do not really need that. We can grow further spiritually.

There were commandments for eating meat, and I think that was my point.

Good to hear from you again!

 

[Gary K]

There were commandments for eating meat because there were the sacrifices and meat was still being eaten, the commandments were centered around the sacrifices putting parameters on what meat from it could still be of use for. Not that all meat had to be eaten, but it would not be available to anyone if not then for who was appointed for it. But being the sacrificial system, God left that in place only for what Christ came for to accomplish, as he did. Mention of eating meat was in connection to sacrifice all the time. Only Christ was accomplishing what sacrifice was supposed to which with animals they used God was foreshadowing, while doing what could be done to limit it. And God did, passages show sacrifices were not pleasing to God. We know Christ came and animals really do not have to die for us, we do not really need that. We can grow further spiritually.

I would add to this that the meat was partial payment for the wages of the priests and Levites, This is laid out in scripture.

Lev_2:3 And the remnant of the meat offering shall be Aaron's and his sons': it is a thing most holy of the offerings of the LORD made by fire.

This is because the tribe of Levi was not given an inheritance of land because they were to spend their time working in, and taking care of. the temple. We also have the example of Eli and his sons to show us how seriously God took this.

1Sa 2:12 Now the sons of Eli were sons of Belial; they knew not the LORD.
1Sa 2:13 And the priests' custom with the people was, that, when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant came, while the flesh was in seething, with a fleshhook of three teeth in his hand;
1Sa 2:14 And he struck it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fleshhook brought up the priest took for himself. So they did in Shiloh unto all the Israelites that came thither.
1Sa 2:15 Also before they burnt the fat, the priest's servant came, and said to the man that sacrificed, Give flesh to roast for the priest; for he will not have sodden flesh of thee, but raw.
1Sa 2:16 And if any man said unto him, Let them not fail to burn the fat presently, and then take as much as thy soul desireth; then he would answer him, Nay; but thou shalt give it me now: and if not, I will take it by force.
1Sa 2:17 Wherefore the sin of the young men was very great before the LORD: for men abhorred the offering of the LORD.

 

[The Liturgist]

Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

Yes, because God Himself rose from the dead on Sunday, and appeared to St. Paul appointing Him his Apostle, and St. Paul enjoins us to follow Holy Tradition in 2 Thessalonians ch. 2 v. 15, and Galatians 1:8-9, and indeed in the whole of Galatians, Romans and elsewhere also forbids us from attempting to follow the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, we do keep the Seventh Day Holy in the manner in which it was meant, by celebrating on Holy Saturday the resting of Christ our true God in the tomb before His resurrection on Sunday, after recreating Man in His image on the sixth day, just as He rested on the seventh day after creating man on the Sixth day in Genesis ch. 1.

In addition God in the person of the Holy Spirit descended to the Apostles at the third hour on the first day in Acts, which is generally the time at which most Christians worship, that being 9 AM on Sunday. And even if Sunday owes its name to primitive sun worshipping Romans, the name is a good name, for like the Sun, the Son of God rose in the East and will return in the East.

Lastly, since God became man in the Incarnation, to be more specific, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God without change became man and was crucified for Us, and since He walked among us and directly touched us and spoke to His disciples, surely that is of equal importance to what He wrote with what was likely His resurrected finger in Exodus (since God the Father is a spirit and thus does not have a literal finger, but God the Son has ten of them, and is coeternal with the Father, and thus could have appeared after rising from the dead to Moses, so this was almost certainly a Christophany (an appearance of God the Son), just as the flames on the burning yet unburnt bush seen by Moses were almost certainly a Pneumatophany (an appearance of the Holy Spirit), like the tongues of fire on Pentecost.

 

[Gary K]

Yes, because God Himself rose from the dead on Sunday, and appeared to St. Paul appointing Him his Apostle, and St. Paul enjoins us to follow Holy Tradition in 2 Thessalonians ch. 2 v. 15, and Galatians 1:8-9, and indeed in the whole of Galatians, Romans and elsewhere also forbids us from attempting to follow the Mosaic Law. Furthermore, we do keep the Seventh Day Holy in the manner in which it was meant, by celebrating on Holy Saturday the resting of Christ our true God in the tomb before His resurrection on Sunday, after recreating Man in His image on the sixth day, just as He rested on the seventh day after creating man on the Sixth day in Genesis ch. 1.

In addition God in the person of the Holy Spirit descended to the Apostles at the third hour on the first day in Acts, which is generally the time at which most Christians worship, that being 9 AM on Sunday. And even if Sunday owes its name to primitive sun worshipping Romans, the name is a good name, for like the Sun, the Son of God rose in the East and will return in the East.

Lastly, since God became man in the Incarnation, to be more specific, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God without change became man and was crucified for Us, and since He walked among us and directly touched us and spoke to His disciples, surely that is of equal importance to what He wrote with what was likely His resurrected finger in Exodus (since God the Father is a spirit and thus does not have a literal finger, but God the Son has ten of them, and is coeternal with the Father, and thus could have appeared after rising from the dead to Moses, so this was almost certainly a Christophany (an appearance of God the Son), just as the flames on the burning yet unburnt bush seen by Moses were almost certainly a Pneumatophany (an appearance of the Holy Spirit), like the tongues of fire on Pentecost.

I would differ with you in a couple of things about God. He said, let us make man in our image after our likeness. Yes He is a spirit but He appeared to Abraham and ate food prepared by Abraham's servant and by Sarah.

Gen 18:4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
Gen 18:5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
Gen 18:6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
Gen 18:7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
Gen 18:8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

 

[The Liturgist]

I would differ with you in a couple of things about God. He said, let us make man in our image after our likeness. Yes He is a spirit but He appeared to Abraham and ate food prepared by Abraham's servant and by Sarah.

Jesus Christ is God, together with his Father and the Holy Spirit, and also man, and thus since God is unchanging according to Scripture and is a Spirit according to scripture, if Melchizedek was God, which is debated, it was God in the person of the Incarnate Logos, Jesus Christ, who alone of the three members of the Trinity is explicitly identified in Scripture as eating.

 

[Gary K]

Jesus Christ is God, together with his Father and the Holy Spirit, and also man, and thus since God is unchanging according to Scripture and is a Spirit according to scripture, if Melchizedek was God, which is debated, it was God in the person of the Incarnate Logos, Jesus Christ, who alone of the three members of the Trinity is explicitly identified in Scripture as eating.

I don't disagree with that. I just got a different understanding of your position from your comment.

 

[The Liturgist]

I don't disagree with that. I just got a different understanding of your position from your comment.

Ah well you know sometimes my writing can be difficult to understand to my chagrin…I also talk and even think in this kind of academic reflective phraseology, and I sometimes have to consciously put on an affectation like a foreign language to get, for instance, cashiers at the grocery store to understand me. Since I was in fifth grade I have found the word supplant intuitive to use, which did at the time cause some difficulty when my teacher thought I had invented it until she looked in a dictionary. She did also think Ireland was on the coast of Western Europe and not an island until I implored her to look at the map behind her. Poor Mrs. Holzer. But she was a good soul, unlike a twisted pair of liberal teachers I once had in public school (Mrs. Holzer was at a parochial school).

 

[Gary K]

Ah well you know sometimes my writing can be difficult to understand to my chagrin…I also talk and even think in this kind of academic reflective phraseology, and I sometimes have to consciously put on an affectation like a foreign language to get, for instance, cashiers at the grocery store to understand me. Since I was in fifth grade I have found the word supplant intuitive to use, which did at the time cause some difficulty when my teacher thought I had invented it until she looked in a dictionary. She did also think Ireland was on the coast of Western Europe and not an island until I implored her to look at the map behind her. Poor Mrs. Holzer. But she was a good soul, unlike a twisted pair of liberal teachers I once had in public school (Mrs. Holzer was at a parochial school).

LOL. You may have an advantage of education over me but I am a lot like you. I used to read the dictionary for fun starting in the third grade. We had a massive old Webster's Dictionary then. It was close to a foot think and was made of very fine paper. Part of my problem now is old age and early alzheimers so I will sometimes not understand some things as I used to.

I also attended parochial schools until I graduated from high school. I only took a two year technical college course after that, but I am highly self educated as I've always been curious about all kinds of things and I love to read. .

 

[bbbbbbb]

LOL. You may have an advantage of education over me but I am a lot like you. I used to read the dictionary for fun starting in the third grade. We had a massive old Webster's Dictionary then. It was close to a foot think and was made of very fine paper. Part of my problem now is old age and early alzheimers so I will sometimes not understand some things as I used to.

I also attended parochial schools until I graduated from high school. I only took a two year technical college course after that, but I am highly self educated as I've always been curious about all kinds of things and I love to read. .

I am also part of this club. My professional field is architectural history and I have a large collection of architectural dictionaries which I have read and enjoyed immensely. I love reading books and getting more information, even though the vast majority of normal people don't have the slightest interest.

 

[The Liturgist]

I am also part of this club. My professional field is architectural history and I have a large collection of architectural dictionaries which I have read and enjoyed immensely. I love reading books and getting more information, even though the vast majority of normal people don't have the slightest interest.

Oh that’s awesome. I nearly became an architect and have a vast architectural library. My tastes are a bit eclectic, in that I love traditional architecture but I also love Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Streamline Moderne, the Bauhaus school and its derivatives in the form of the International Style, especially in the form of the Seagram Building by Mies van der Rohe, the Lever House, and some of the skyscrapers of Skidmore, Owings and Merill, like the John Hancock Center and Sears Tower, but my appreciation for the cutting edge started to wane with the Postmodern period and newer styles and I find Sir Norman Foster a bit boring, and actively dislike Frank Gehry. I still design buildings for fun. My current project is a new statehouse for Alaska in a Beaux Arts architecture that would be more splendid than their current building.

 

[BPPLEE]

Ah well you know sometimes my writing can be difficult to understand to my chagrin…I also talk and even think in this kind of academic reflective phraseology, and I sometimes have to consciously put on an affectation like a foreign language to get, for instance, cashiers at the grocery store to understand me. Since I was in fifth grade I have found the word supplant intuitive to use, which did at the time cause some difficulty when my teacher thought I had invented it until she looked in a dictionary. She did also think Ireland was on the coast of Western Europe and not an island until I implored her to look at the map behind her. Poor Mrs. Holzer. But she was a good soul, unlike a twisted pair of liberal teachers I once had in public school (Mrs. Holzer was at a parochial school).

I always find your posts interesting. You are one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Oh that’s awesome. I nearly became an architect and have a vast architectural library. My tastes are a bit eclectic, in that I love traditional architecture but I also love Art Nouveau, Art Deco, Streamline Moderne, the Bauhaus school and its derivatives in the form of the International Style, especially in the form of the Seagram Building by Mies van der Rohe, the Lever House, and some of the skyscrapers of Skidmore, Owings and Merill, like the John Hancock Center and Sears Tower, but my appreciation for the cutting edge started to wane with the Postmodern period and newer styles and I find Sir Norman Foster a bit boring, and actively dislike Frank Gehry. I still design buildings for fun. My current project is a new statehouse for Alaska in a Beaux Arts architecture that would be more splendid than their current building.

Wow! I am delighted to hear of your interest. My architectural tastes are also quite eclectic. I truly despise the architectural sculpture of Frank Gehry (they are not buildings in any real sense but large-scale computer-generated sculptures) with the caveat that his inspiration was the Sydney Opera House which was probably the first of the genre. It is a splendid piece of sculpture which proved to be outrageously expensive to construct and more than mediocre as a performance hall - the classic example of a square peg in a round hole.

I also have pondered the very mundane office building which Alaska calls its statehouse. Alaska is a great state and deserves far better than that. IMO the Beaux Arts style is ideally suited for such a building.

 

[BobRyan]

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...as you can see, even the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admit that the Bible is "silent" on the observance of Sunday and the change of the Sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.

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The American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admits “the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.”—George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184.​

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Another says: “Up to the time of Christ's death, no change had been made in the day;” and, “so far as the record shows, they [the apostles] did not ... give any explicit command enjoining the abandonment of the seventh-day Sabbath, and its observance on the first day of the week.”—A. E. Waffle, The Lord's Day, pages 186-188.​

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Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

Good question.

"The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese makes the same point that the Bible provides no support for editing the Sabbath to point it away from the seventh day, and instead to point it at the first day of the week.

Amazon.com

 

[Filippus]

There were commandments for eating meat because there were the sacrifices and meat was still being eaten, the commandments were centered around the sacrifices putting parameters on what meat from it could still be of use for. Not that all meat had to be eaten, but it would not be available to anyone if not then for who was appointed for it. But being the sacrificial system, God left that in place only for what Christ came for to accomplish, as he did. Mention of eating meat was in connection to sacrifice all the time. Only Christ was accomplishing what sacrifice was supposed to which with animals they used God was foreshadowing, while doing what could be done to limit it. And God did, passages show sacrifices were not pleasing to God. We know Christ came and animals really do not have to die for us, we do not really need that. We can have

Romans 14:3

Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

Shalom

 

[BobRyan]

Worshipping on Sunday is not Biblical at all...as you can see, even the American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admit that the Bible is "silent" on the observance of Sunday and the change of the Sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.

​

​

The American Tract Society and the American Sunday School Union admits “the complete silence of the New Testament so far as any explicit command for the Sabbath [Sunday, the first day of the week] or definite rules for its observance are concerned.”—George Elliott, The Abiding Sabbath, page 184.​

​

​

Another says: “Up to the time of Christ's death, no change had been made in the day;” and, “so far as the record shows, they [the apostles] did not ... give any explicit command enjoining the abandonment of the seventh-day Sabbath, and its observance on the first day of the week.”—A. E. Waffle, The Lord's Day, pages 186-188.​

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Even a number of people pn this board -- people who do not claim to keep the Bible Sabbath -- will post in agreement with what those statements say in the quote above

Do you think it really SAFE to follow TRADITION when God Himself CLEARLY says, "Remember the seventh day to keep it holy..."? He wrote that in STONE with His own FINGER.... It's the ONLY thing in the whole Bible that God wrote in STONE...and yet, 99% of Christians today say it doesn't matter which day you choose to keep holy...

In light of Christ's teaching in Mark 7:7-13 - I would say it is a question worth asking for sure.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 14:3

Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.

Shalom

True - the 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14 issue of vegetarian vs meat eating due to concerns over "meat offered to idols" is an interesting topic but does not delete moral laws such as are found in the TEN - like "do not take God's name in vain"

 

[Filippus]

True - the 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14 issue of vegetarian vs meat eating due to concerns over "meat offered to idols" is an interesting topic but does not delete moral laws such as are found in the TEN - like "do not take God's name in vain"

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Colossians 2:16‭-‬17

It does not delete the law, but I am NOT under the Law!

For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:14 NKJV

This is a mutually exclusive statement which means you can either be under the LAW or Grace, NOT both!

I choose the law of Faith in the New Covenant! Rom 3: 27

Shalom

 

[FredVB]

There were commandments for eating meat, and I think that was my point.

Good to hear from you again!

The commandment, focused on sacrifice for blood related to atonement, in which there was meat then, to be eaten or to be thrown out, was for Israel, and it is a memorial now. There is no general commandment to eat meat, it would not be within the design from God, which was shown.