American Tract Society & the American Sunday School Union Agree ~

[Leaf473]

My original question this time around was
What is the scriptural way to remove blood from meat.

He shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.
Leviticus 5

Given that the rest of the blood can be drained out, draining must be the way to removing the blood.

Grace and peace to you all from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[FredVB]

My original question this time around was
What is the scriptural way to remove blood from meat.

He shall sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.
Leviticus 5

Given that the rest of the blood can be drained out, draining must be the way to removing the blood.

Grace and peace to you all from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

The only way I can answer that is that there came to be specialist butchers who did drain the slain animals of all their blood as far as they knew they could, and that is the minimum with which any could claim with any legitimacy they have permission from the Bible to have meat from animals, it still neglects much of what happened at this time in the Bible from which they claim it, and that it was not to be always lasting. Of course, if we know we are having blood we know we are having it without permission, that is a legitimate issue. Cooking what has blood is never the way to remove blood as the cooked blood is only hardened in what is cooked. We could just acknowledge in the long term having meat is not in God's will, and passages in the Bible show that.

 

[FredVB]

These statements following are all from the Bible and it is shown what is in the design from God for us, from the beginning of the Bible, Isaiah 11, and Acts 15.

God said, "I have given you every herb that yields seed which is on the face of the earth, and every tree whose fruit yields seed, to you it shall be for food." Yahweh God said "It is not good that man should live alone." Out of the ground Yahweh God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. Then Yahweh saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. So Yahweh said, "I will destroy man who I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air." But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh. Then God spoke to Noah, saying, "Go out of the ark, you, your wife, your sons and their wives. Bring out with you every living thing of all flesh that is with you, that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." Then Noah built an altar to Yahweh, and offered burnt offerings. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said, "The fear of you and the dread of you shall be on every beast of the earth, on every bird of the air, on all that move on the earth, and all the fish of the sea. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you, I have given you all things, even as the green herbs. But you shall not eat flesh with its blood. For your lifeblood I will require a reckoning." It pleased the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They wrote this letter: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from what was strangled, and from sexual immorality. Keep yourselves from these, you will do well." The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it in hope, because the creation itself will also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. "The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child shall lead them. The cow and the bear shall graze, their young ones shall lie down together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra's hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper's den. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Yahweh, as the waters cover the sea." "God will wipe away every tear, there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."

We with being human are indeed made to be in the image of God, some being godly with following Christ the Lord are better as images of God than others, certainly more than those who will only live in an ungodly way. This does not show at all that all animals are without spirit, and indeed there is scripture showing otherwise, and it does not show that God, the Creator of all, does not care for other animals, God shows that he does.

Sabbath rest on the seventh day of every seven days that we will remember is also of God's will for us from the beginning, to be on topic, as the other commandments also show what is in God's will for us.

 

[Leaf473]

One more scripture I'd like to add, from 1 Corinthians 10

Whatever is sold in the butcher shop, eat, asking no question for the sake of conscience, for “the earth is the Lord’s, and its fullness. But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no questions for the sake of conscience.

 

[FredVB]

One more scripture I'd like to add, from 1 Corinthians 10

Whatever is sold in the butcher shop, eat, asking no question for the sake of conscience, for “the earth is the Lord’s, and its fullness. But if one of those who don’t believe invites you to a meal, and you are inclined to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no questions for the sake of conscience.

Alright, that one is a good one for showing me what is permitted. In fairness, the context is about knowledge or ignorance of whether idolatry is still involved. And actually, idolatry is not really fully gone now, and it still would involve food, too. But it is not about permitting meat that is not with its blood drained from it. Earlier in this context the writer significantly stated, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify." So, I agree to there being things permitted with that, though it is not involving blood permitted with that, but still, what is permitted is not in itself helpful or edifying. And I know that. I already share information about the health problems with use of animal products still being had, and use of animals that are subject to what they are violates what is said in Bible passages, as if we do not have a conscience that would be sensitive to that, it takes way more land, water, and resources, and it is worse to this world with what is happening to it. Plenty of information about that is available online. So even with permission, which we know will not continue, from Bible passages, and that it is not of God's perfect will, though some would say God at first made a mistake that God later corrected, meat, with blood drained from it as far as possible, might be had then, though it was not helpful or edifying. Now though information shows blood, which we should not have, is still always there in meat even if blood was drained as far as possible, with the ways used for that. So, I don't see anything good about still using meat from animals.

May the Sabbath we had have been good for us, enjoy this day with any Christmas observances you have.

 

[Leaf473]

Alright, that one is a good one for showing me what is permitted. In fairness, the context is about knowledge or ignorance of whether idolatry is still involved. And actually, idolatry is not really fully gone now, and it still would involve food, too. But it is not about permitting meat that is not with its blood drained from it. Earlier in this context the writer significantly stated, "All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify." So, I agree to there being things permitted with that, though it is not involving blood permitted with that, but still, what is permitted is not in itself helpful or edifying. And I know that. I already share information about the health problems with use of animal products still being had, and use of animals that are subject to what they are violates what is said in Bible passages, as if we do not have a conscience that would be sensitive to that, it takes way more land, water, and resources, and it is worse to this world with what is happening to it. Plenty of information about that is available online. So even with permission, which we know will not continue, from Bible passages, and that it is not of God's perfect will, though some would say God at first made a mistake that God later corrected, meat, with blood drained from it as far as possible, might be had then, though it was not helpful or edifying. Now though information shows blood, which we should not have, is still always there in meat even if blood was drained as far as possible, with the ways used for that. So, I don't see anything good about still using meat from animals.

May the Sabbath we had have been good for us, enjoy this day with any Christmas observances you have.

Thank you for the nice message. And as I said before, I agree that in general vegetarians are healthier.

Myself, I like to take this approach, from the sermon on the mount.
Therefore, I tell you, don't be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

26 See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they?

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

 

[FredVB]

Thank you for the nice message. And as I said before, I agree that in general vegetarians are healthier.

Myself, I like to take this approach, from the sermon on the mount.
Therefore, I tell you, don't be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

26 See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they?

Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
Proverbs 16

When we find passages that contrast with some other things, I find that there must be an order of priority. But for passages we look at, are we understanding them rightly, with the context? I believe that is important too. We know, if conscience does not still inform us, with passages, that God cares for creatures of God's creation. Proverbs 12:10 itself is great for showing that, Matthew 6:25-26 do not conflict with that, God cares for the fowls, if God did not, the passage would not mean so much.

The issues in animal agriculture which violate that righteousness, the better health we would have with living according to God's perfect will as the design from the beginning for us corresponds to, and the issues with use of resources and the serious effects on the world from animal agriculture, far outweigh other things for how to choose. And I did not even say there are delicious options for meals that are from whole foods from plants, and our tastes really change for such changes.

 

[Leaf473]

Say, @FredVB my man, what's your take on this?

Then Jesus came and took the bread, gave it to them, and the fish likewise.
John 21

Do fish have blood, too?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[FredVB]

Say, @FredVB my man, what's your take on this?

Then Jesus came and took the bread, gave it to them, and the fish likewise.
John 21

Do fish have blood, too?

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

Yes, fish have blood. Despite what some say fish are sentient creatures too. Jesus is a model of compassion to us, and is more compassionate than we are yet. There is mention of fish in the translations of the new testament of the Bible that we have, which I found I should think about, already. I reached some conclusions, while I am not sure of all of them. Most significant, I see basis to conclude that Jesus himself did not eat them. Apostles afterward followed the example and didn't eat meat or things from animals, his brother James who led the church did not ever have things from animals. Many early believers stopped having meat too. So, where it is said Jesus was offered honeycomb and fish, it is suspicious to me, why is it there when it says afterward Jesus ate it? It means one thing. I don't believe at all he had one item that was a fish honeycomb combo. I know changes have come to Bible passages, some translations don't mention honeycomb while it really is in the text manuscripts, so it is being edited out. There is other evidence of an early agenda to add fish into texts and such who had criticism to those abstaining from meat. But where we find fish otherwise mentioned, if those were really there in those events, they were miraculously present, and Jesus was actually saying something else other than suggesting his followers should eat fish. Those four fishermen who became his disciples and who he chose for being his apostles had returned to fishing, with showing miracles he was taking them away from fishing which seemed natural to them, that they would fish for souls of men to bring them to restoration with God. With miraculous power used for that Jesus did not have to kill fish.

 

[Leaf473]

Yes, fish have blood. Despite what some say fish are sentient creatures too. Jesus is a model of compassion to us, and is more compassionate than we are yet. There is mention of fish in the translations of the new testament of the Bible that we have, which I found I should think about, already. I reached some conclusions, while I am not sure of all of them. Most significant, I see basis to conclude that Jesus himself did not eat them. Apostles afterward followed the example and didn't eat meat or things from animals, his brother James who led the church did not ever have things from animals. Many early believers stopped having meat too. So, where it is said Jesus was offered honeycomb and fish, it is suspicious to me, why is it there when it says afterward Jesus ate it? It means one thing. I don't believe at all he had one item that was a fish honeycomb combo. I know changes have come to Bible passages, some translations don't mention honeycomb while it really is in the text manuscripts, so it is being edited out. There is other evidence of an early agenda to add fish into texts and such who had criticism to those abstaining from meat. But where we find fish otherwise mentioned, if those were really there in those events, they were miraculously present, and Jesus was actually saying something else other than suggesting his followers should eat fish. Those four fishermen who became his disciples and who he chose for being his apostles had returned to fishing, with showing miracles he was taking them away from fishing which seemed natural to them, that they would fish for souls of men to bring them to restoration with God. With miraculous power used for that Jesus did not have to kill fish.

Jesus encouraged his disciples to catch fish, and gave them fish to eat, but it was miracle fish? That seems like an unnecessary stretch, to me.

Peace be with you, my brother!

 

[FredVB]

Jesus encouraged his disciples to catch fish, and gave them fish to eat, but it was miracle fish? That seems like an unnecessary stretch, to me.

Peace be with you, my brother!

It is not as much a stretch to me, more than saying Jesus was not as compassionate as I have come to be. It isn't as healthy to have animal products, animal agriculture violates righteousness as shown in Proverbs 12:10 besides my conscience, and is a big part of our ruining this world we were supposed to have good stewardship toward. This still is not being given attention.

You see encouragement to catch and eat fish but that misses the point of what is shown in the text. Miraculous power was shown to those followers to realize who Jesus is and to leave their fishing and fish for souls from among humanity to bring to restoration with God through Jesus Christ.

 

[FredVB]

I don't just post for showing how there are reasons it is better in important ways to not use what we might have from animals, and that with that coming closer to the design for us in the beginning as shown that is of God's perfect will, which doesn't change. I want to be helpful, so that another I speak with about these things does not ultimately walk off after I somehow effectively communicate enough of that, and say to themselves, good for him that he does that, but it's not for me, I can't make such changes. If they are believers they might even say to themselves, if not to me as I have heard plenty, something with 'but muh puhmission' as if permission is as valid for the way to choose as knowing God's higher will. So divorce continued with that, polygamy persisted in places with that, slavery persisted even more with it. Permission from God was not for guiding us. If permission for meat is still used it is not had without blood being removed. But that is not good in other ways that remain important.

If I was asked for it I would be helpful, changing this way really is very possible. Early believers did so, Daniel and his friends in Babylon did so, and I did, and those who persist with animal products do so because they are really addictive, meat is, and dairy is much more, especially in solid form like dairy cheese in which addictive substances are concentrated. I would be helpful for showing how to get past those things.

I made effective resolutions with real and meaningful changes in my life. But these happened without me making New Year's resolutions. When we just choose what we will we are not caring for what is of God's will in which there is godliness.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't just post for showing how there are reasons it is better in important ways to not use what we might have from animals, and that with that coming closer to the design for us in the beginning as shown that is of God's perfect will, which doesn't change. I want to be helpful, so that another I speak with about these things does not ultimately walk off after I somehow effectively communicate enough of that, and say to themselves, good for him that he does that, but it's not for me, I can't make such changes. If they are believers they might even say to themselves, if not to me as I have heard plenty, something with 'but muh puhmission' as if permission is as valid for the way to choose as knowing God's higher will. So divorce continued with that, polygamy persisted in places with that, slavery persisted even more with it. Permission from God was not for guiding us. If permission for meat is still used it is not had without blood being removed. But that is not good in other ways that remain important.

If I was asked for it I would be helpful, changing this way really is very possible. Early believers did so, Daniel and his friends in Babylon did so, and I did, and those who persist with animal products do so because they are really addictive, meat is, and dairy is much more, especially in solid form like dairy cheese in which addictive substances are concentrated. I would be helpful for showing how to get past those things.

I made effective resolutions with real and meaningful changes in my life. But these happened without me making New Year's resolutions. When we just choose what we will we are not caring for what is of God's will in which there is godliness.

Milk is bad, too?

 

[FredVB]

Milk is bad, too?

The issues are not different for dairy or anything from animal agriculture. Animals are still abused, and slaughtered, with those, and there is still the greater demand on land, water, and resources, and the healthy way I speak for that works against having cancers, heart attacks or stokes from blocked arteries, high blood pressure, and many other issues to our well-being, is just without using any animal products or processed foods, see Forks Over Knives that I mention, and there is the site, www.forksoverknives.com. I won't give a link to what shows the abuse to animals in the industry, because it is already recognizable as too violent, and I have lost a post with it bring deleted for having that link. But that really is the case. Too violent to link to it. Why, if that is permitted to us? What is wrong with that picture? But you can find something called Dominion yourself. If you don't understand why there is abuse with the animal products made available besides meat and why they are connected, I will explain it, while it can be found online too.

 

[FredVB]

there is abuse with the animal products made available besides meat and why they are connected, I will explain it

All animals kept in animal agriculture (which now is the majority of the mass of land vertebrates left as environments diminished with growth of animal agriculture, which takes more land and other things needed than use of just vegetation for food) are stimulated by human workers there and manually inseminated by them, for breeding. While humans are animals too, this is to any of the other species used, if it were humans doing this to humans it would still be called rape. It is this way for any other animals, and with cattle this is the case whether they are used for meat, or ones used for their milk that is taken, first, before slaughter afterward. The pregnancy forced on dairy cows is to get them to produce their milk that will be taken, when the calves are born they are just taken away, to the agony that can be viewed of both mother and baby. The male calves get slaughtered right away, for meat from them, female calves are raised to go through the same thing. This is for milk taken from them for their babies, to be used for the demand among humans. This is tragic, nothing godly, while it is not really healthy for us, and with hormones good just for becoming grown cattle, while good plant-based milks are available. The egg industry breeds with human workers stimulating and insemination too, eggs used for producing more of them are hatched with the chicks checked on assembly lines never having seen their mother, those checked as male chicks are left to continue to where they are dumped into a grinder where they just get ground up right away. Some of us are really bothered by this, and would have nothing to do with that industry and the demand that continues it. And really eggs are not healthy for us either and we could really eat better. I can't see God who is benevolent lacking care for these creatures, and I don't see that God would have these things continue. We can choose better, and the healthy way is included in that.

Things God showed for us earliest were the best for us. Grace is for where we fail but we can be restored, even to what was best for us shown earlier.

 

[Leaf473]

The issues are not different for dairy or anything from animal agriculture. Animals are still abused, and slaughtered, with those, and there is still the greater demand on land, water, and resources, and the healthy way I speak for that works against having cancers, heart attacks or stokes from blocked arteries, high blood pressure, and many other issues to our well-being, is just without using any animal products or processed foods, see Forks Over Knives that I mention, and there is the site, www.forksoverknives.com. I won't give a link to what shows the abuse to animals in the industry, because it is already recognizable as too violent, and I have lost a post with it bring deleted for having that link. But that really is the case. Too violent to link to it. Why, if that is permitted to us? What is wrong with that picture? But you can find something called Dominion yourself. If you don't understand why there is abuse with the animal products made available besides meat and why they are connected, I will explain it, while it can be found online too.

I don't doubt that animals are abused, but is there a scriptural basis for saying that milk is bad?

 

[FredVB]

I don't doubt that animals are abused, but is there a scriptural basis for saying that milk is bad?

What do you want? I have milk anyway, I just have choices for what to have other than dairy. If conscience isn't enough, that abuse to animals that is contrary to righteousness that the Bible shows, that continued use of it is bad for our health, which there is information from studies that I show, that it is just as much a part of using greater demands on water, land and resources while harmful environmentally to the world, you would still not make change toward betterment for a lack of a verse to say milk is bad? I know the Bible shows to care for our body, which having healthy choices is doing, I know the Bible shows that God hates the destructiveness to this earth from what we do, with our choices, I know God cares for the creatures of God's creation, which the Bible shows, and we should choose for righteousness over wickedness. I am sure the expression of "flowing with milk and honey" is symbolic of land being so fertile for abundance, not for being an endorsement to have milk, but again, I say we can have choices without having anything from dairy. If I can ask, do you still get meat that is from an animal without the blood removed? If you are not changing to ways I show are better, I will not badger you about it, I communicate for sharing the information, and where there is response to try making changes that way, I want to really be helpful for that. I encourage it. Come on, it's Veganuary, you can try. It can be through personal messaging too, if you like. Think of trying this out as an opportunity. Is there a significant objection to that? I have done what I can to show there are reasons, and there is the healthiest way we can have, without animal products and other things not as good for us.

I am thankful anyway for the courteous communication you have been having with me while you ask me about anything of this. It was encouraging for me, and certainly not all are hostile in response to communication of these things.

 

[Leaf473]

What do you want? I have milk anyway, I just have choices for what to have other than dairy. If conscience isn't enough, that abuse to animals that is contrary to righteousness that the Bible shows, that continued use of it is bad for our health, which there is information from studies that I show, that it is just as much a part of using greater demands on water, land and resources while harmful environmentally to the world, you would still not make change toward betterment for a lack of a verse to say milk is bad? I know the Bible shows to care for our body, which having healthy choices is doing, I know the Bible shows that God hates the destructiveness to this earth from what we do, with our choices, I know God cares for the creatures of God's creation, which the Bible shows, and we should choose for righteousness over wickedness. I am sure the expression of "flowing with milk and honey" is symbolic of land being so fertile for abundance, not for being an endorsement to have milk, but again, I say we can have choices without having anything from dairy. If I can ask, do you still get meat that is from an animal without the blood removed? If you are not changing to ways I show are better, I will not badger you about it, I communicate for sharing the information, and where there is response to try making changes that way, I want to really be helpful for that. I encourage it. Come on, it's Veganuary, you can try. It can be through personal messaging too, if you like. Think of trying this out as an opportunity. Is there a significant objection to that? I have done what I can to show there are reasons, and there is the healthiest way we can have, without animal products and other things not as good for us.

I am thankful anyway for the courteous communication you have been having with me while you ask me about anything of this. It was encouraging for me, and certainly not all are hostile in response to communication of these things.

I was just curious about what the scriptures had to say about milk itself. I agree that the modern process of bringing milk to the grocery store involves animal abuse. If you had your own cow or goat, and treated it nicely, it doesn't seem like there would be anything unscriptural about using its milk. I agree milk isn't very healthy in most cases. But then, a lot of clean foods are not actually healthy.

I currently eat meat bought at a regular grocery store, so I assume that it's not prepared according to the standards in the law of Moses. Did I answer all your questions?

Thanks for the great discussion, and peace be with you!

 

[FredVB]

I was just curious about what the scriptures had to say about milk itself. I agree that the modern process of bringing milk to the grocery store involves animal abuse. If you had your own cow or goat, and treated it nicely, it doesn't seem like there would be anything unscriptural about using its milk. I agree milk isn't very healthy in most cases. But then, a lot of clean foods are not actually healthy.

I currently eat meat bought at a regular grocery store, so I assume that it's not prepared according to the standards in the law of Moses. Did I answer all your questions?

Thanks for the great discussion, and peace be with you!

To be clear, all the permission to have meat from animals that there was ever from God is Noachian, that from the time of Noah, that is the only permission for anyone to have meat from animals. It is what the Bible readers who use meat from animals claim the permission from God for, because that is what the Bible has, for any yet using it, of any human people. It had all meat from slaughtered animals ever permitted to only be with the blood removed from it. The law of Moses was not changing it, with more standards from the law, Jesus didn't, and the apostles affirmed it for believers, in Acts 15.

Assuming the standards being met in the industries is not wise. We do have responsibilities to animals which we use to actually check, Proverbs 12:10 does give us leave from that. I can't speak the same issue with you using your own animal as I don't know you like that for making any observation, but this does apply to the demand from us with what we buy at stores. Economic demand drives the industries and they could not continue just as they do without any business.

There just wasn't much about milk in the Bible. In most of those times milk wasn't so commonly used.

I make really nice meals and I would enjoy talking about that.

The observation of Veganuary is an opportunity for trying out foods without animal products for this month, without feeling like there is any commitment further than that. I say it can be that healthy way, which I know from Forks Over Knives, which is good for avoiding cancers, heart attacks or strokes from clogging arteries, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, and a great list of other possible problems to health and well-being. With all the other important reasons to not have animal products, why not give more thought to trying that out?

I would try to be helpful for it, and I can respond through private messages too.

 

[FredVB]

Veganuary is really a great time to try out what I am saying can have you eat in the healthiest way. There are helpful sites for those trying out with Veganuary, and there are delicious meals that can be found, like at www.forksoverknives.com. See the documentary if you can, too. With the health we can work on, the issues to all the animals who suffer because of us though it is not needed, and the issues to this world, why not? Serving our belly to satisfy desires is not what we are called to do. The addictive behavior can be overcome. I know that for myself.