How Easter was used to replace the Sabbath

[Gary K]

Thats, of course, your reading into it.

As Peter was said to not follow Jewish traditions but living more like a Gentile or as Paul said nobody needs to keep any days, so also John did not need to worship on the day you would like him to just because of his ethnicity.

Do you hear yourself? Peter was rebuked for following Jewish traditions. Traditions being the operative word. He wasn't rebuked for following the law of God. Here's what Paul said about Jewish traditions,

Phillipians 3: 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul, as Saul, consented to the murder of Stephen so the law he refers to here could not be the law of God. Your understanding of Paul's writings are deeply flawed. Does the law of God countenance murder?

Acts 9: 1 AND Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

 

[trophy33]

Do you hear yourself? Peter was rebuked for following Jewish traditions. Traditions being the operative word. He wasn't rebuked for following the law of God. Here's what Paul said about Jewish traditions,

Phillipians 3: 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

Paul, as Saul, consented to the murder of Stephen so the law he refers to here could not be the law of God. Your understanding of Paul's writings are deeply flawed. Does the law of God countenance murder?

Acts 9: 1 AND Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

Keeping the Sabbath day was a Jewish tradition. It did not translate to Christianity like for example some of the moral rules did.

 

[Gary K]

So the broad way is the road to salvation?

I see nothing in your post that changes anything.

 

[Gary K]

Keeping the Sabbath day was a Jewish tradition. It did not translate to Christianity like for example some of the moral rules did.

Sabbath is not a Jewish tradition. It's part of the 10 commandments. God placed it in the middle of His moral law

 

[trophy33]

Sabbath is not a Jewish tradition. It's part of the 10 commandments.

Which were given to... (drums)... Jews.

As a part of .... (drums)... the Jewish Law.

As preserved in the ... (drums)... Jewish tradition.

 

[Gary K]

Which were given to... (drums)... Jews.

As a part of .... (drums)... the Jewish Law.

As preserved in the ... (drums)... Jewish tradition.

Nope. Is God a Jewish tradition?

 

[trophy33]

Nope. Is God a Jewish tradition?

Nope. Stop jumping from one logical fallacy to another.

Back to the point - John did not need to keep the Sabbath just because he was of the Jewish origin. He was also a Christian.

Sabbath was not translated to Christianity, unlike some moral rules (e.g. "do not murder").

 

[Gary K]

Nope. Stop jumping from one logical fallacy to another.

Back to the point - John did not need to keep the Sabbath just because he was of the Jewish origin. He was also a Christian.

Sabbath was not translated to Christianity, unlike some moral rules (e.g. "do not murder").

I'm mimicing your fallacies. The law of God is not a tradition.

Matthew 15: 1 THEN came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Jesus condemned Jewish traditions. Why? Because they violated God's law and laid on people heavy burdens..

Matthew 23: 1 THEN spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

Jesus was crucified because He exposed the lies, i.e. traditions, of the Pharisees. These traditions are what Paul referred to.

 

[Deborah~]

Continued -Part 2

God gave us the commandment and told us to not focus on works or labors Exo 20:9, on the seventh day Sabbath Exo 20:10 but to focus on Him. Isa 58:13 hence why we are to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8-11 thus saith the Lord. The Sabbath is about relationship with God and why it is always being attacked just like predicted in the scriptures Dan 7:25



So your claim is the Israelites were not to keep the Ten Commandments because if they disobeyed God by touching the ark of the covenant would be death? Is this really your take on these scriptures. I see why there is some confusion.



You seem to be confusing the law of Moses with the Ten Commandments. There are no animal sacrifices in the Ten Commandments Exodus 20. The law of Moses was added because of sin- for breaking the Ten Commandments. Hence why it was outside the ark. Animal sacrifices always pointed forward to Jesus as a placeholder. Heb 10:1-22 as the blood of animals could never take away sins, but the blood of Christ is perfect for cleansing us of all sin and unrighteousness but comes with conditions 1 Peter 1:9 Pro 28:13. Sin is still breaking the Ten Commandments Rom 7:7, breaking one of them you break them all James 2:10-12 and Jesus did not come to save us in sin Heb 10:26-30, He came to save us from sin Mat 1:21. If we are living for Christ- we would not be breaking His commandments and through Christ we can follow His example that He left for us, committing no sin 1 Peter 2:21-22 but tempted in every way just as we are Heb 4:15. Jesus never died so we can continue in sin, otherwise He could have just taken away the law. We too must die of sin Rom 6 and become a new creation in Christ and those who are hostile against His law Paul points out are the lost Rom 8:7-8

No wonder why the New Covenant was established on better promises Heb 8:6 not better or new laws because God is perfect and it would be impossible for Him to write an imperfect law with His own finger and why He writes His laws in our hearts and minds Heb 8:10 because it is perfect for converting the soul Psa 19:7




Again, your confusing the different laws and their purposes. Many people do, but I would take time to study the differences. I would also consider the clear teachings of Jesus who told us clearly not to break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 because in doing so ones heart is far from Him Mat 15:3-9 which is the opposite of the NC- God's law written in the heart Heb 8:10



This is such an important passage. We must worship Him in Truth and Spirit. All of God's commandments are Truth Psa 119:105.

Jesus in His own Words defined "false worship" i.e. worshipping in vain. That is when we keep our rules over keeping the commandments of God and Jesus quoted directly from the Ten Commandments saying ones heart is far from Him and in vain they worship.

Mat 15:3 He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ 5 But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— 6 then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. 7 Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:

8 ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ ”

10 When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.
12 Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”
13 But He answered and said, “Every plant which My heavenly Father has not planted will be uprooted. 14 Let them alone. They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch.”

Keeping our rules over obeying the commandment of God is “blind” and leads one into a ditch i.e. off the narrow path. Hence Mat 5:19

This scripture shows us what true worship is:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Which reconciles us Rev 22:14

We can keep following the popular path that leads us away from obeying God's commandments or we can have room for faith and trust what God personally wrote and spoke with His own finger is because He loves us and knows what’s best for us.

We are living in the last days and God wants us to come out of our false teachings Rev 18:4 in lieu of popular teachings leading us away from obeying God's holy and righteous commandments that He personally wrote for moral and holy living.

I hope you consider this in prayer.


Thanks for the chat.

My apologies for the delay in responding, sometimes life gets very busy.

I realize the Hebrew saying “sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham” is a bit obscure, but it's familiar to those who have taken heed to not fall victim to a piece-meal reading of God’s Word. I would urge you in the love of Christ to take note of it. Allow me to quote the whole prophecy of the “blindness” that can so easily afflict students of God's Word: “Whom shall the Lord teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast (cf. Hebrews 5:13-14). But command must be upon command, command upon command, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, a little here, a little there. But with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was to them command upon command, command upon command, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, a little here, and a little there: that they might follow, and stumble backwards, and be broken, and be snared, and be captured.” (Isaiah 28:9-13)

This should be a warning about the very kind of doctrine development that is the whole basis of your post, taking a verse here or there, taking them out of their context, and then reading doctrine into them. It’s why I don’t generally cite a particular verse of Scripture. The Word of God isn’t a laundry list of disconnected commandments and rules that you can strip of context and then assemble them to support some viewpoint. The Word of God is a living, breathing message from God, the “story” of His hand at work in this world, His plans and His purposes. As such, you cannot simply take a commandment here and a prophecy there and a verse here or there, ignore the context in which they were spoken, and use them to form some doctrine that comports with your view, or whoever you are relying on for these teachings. And your repeated contention that, “The Ten Commandments is a separate covenant where God alone wrote and spoke the Ten Commandment and after He wrote and spoke them no more was added. Only the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20,” is an example of that.

Go back and read Exodus 19-20, all together, as one connected story of Israel’s encounter with God at Mt. Sinai. In the beginning, God began speaking His commandments directly to the people (20:1). But when the people saw the thundering and lightnings and trumpet blasts and the whole mountain smoking they were terrified, and they ran away in fear. So they told Moses to speak to them and they would listen to him, but don’t let God speak to them, lest they die (v. 19). So from that point forward, God did not speak directly to the people again (nothing more was added), but he spoke the rest of his commandments to them through Moses. And that was an end of God speaking directly to the people. From that moment forward, God spoke to them through Moses (who recorded everything God had said) and through the prophets, but never again did God speak to Israel with an audible voice from heaven, not until the baptism of Jesus.

So the 10 Commandments were not a separate covenant, or a separate law. The 10 Commandments (the 10 Words) were that part of God’s Law that He spoke in the ears of all the people, but they could not bear it so the rest of the commandments were delivered through Moses. These 10 Words were later written on tables of stone “by the finger of God,” not because they were a separate law or were a separate covenant, but because they were God’s “testimony,” his verbal testimony and later his “witness,” his “signature” wherein he was agreeing to enter into the covenant (contract) he was making with the Jewish people that day. It’s no different from when we enter into a contract today, we must sign the contract with our own hand as a “witness” that we are in fact agreeing to enter into this contract, and if you have ever entered into a legal contract you know the legal jargon usually reads, “IN WITNESS HEREOF, the parties hereby enter into this Agreement and affix their signatures …” or similar language. Keep in mind, we are talking about the enactment of a covenant, a legal contract made between God and the Jewish people, and once both parties agreed to it, it was legally binding on both parties. The 10 Commandments, spoken by God from Heaven, and later inscribed with his own hand, were his “witness,” his “testimony” that He was agreeing to enter into this covenant (contract) with Israel. That’s why the stone tables on which he wrote those 10 Words that he had spoken to the people were called “the Tables of Testimony,” because they were God’s “testimony,” his “witness,” his “signature.” And God spoke those 10 Words with a voice from heaven that all the people heard, and wrote with his own finger those 10 Words they had heard him speak as a “witness” to Israel and through them to the world, that this Law did not come from man, but from God. “And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.” (Exodus 31:18)

And that is why these tables on which God wrote with his own hand the 10 Words he had spoken in the hearing of the people were placed in the ark. Because while the rest of the commandments were delivered through Moses, these 10 Words, which the people heard God speak with their own ears, and that God wrote with his own hand, were a signed and sealed testimony that God Himself had given this Law and entered into this covenant with Israel. It’s really not any different from the fact that we may only sign one page of a contract, even though that contract may be hundreds of pages long. But it’s that signature page that proves the parties have agreed to it. And that's what the 10 Commandments were, not a separate covenant, but God's "testimony" that he was making this covenant with Israel.

So all of your post is predicated on the notion that somehow the 10 Commandments God spoke were a separate covenant from those commandments he delivered through Moses. But that’s just not true. The 10 Commandments are just that part of God’s covenant with Israel which God spoke in the hearing of all the people until they asked that God not speak to them anymore but to speak to Moses, and he could relay to them what God said. So the rest of God's commandments to the Jewish people were given through Moses.

But in closing this note let me say this: You keep talking about “following Jesus’ example.” But Jesus never said to follow his example. He said to follow him. Jesus Christ is alive. And he promised that if we believe in him, he will come to us in the spirit and will dwell with us and speak to us, and each and every moment of our lives he will teach us and instruct us and lead us. And if we are willing to take up our cross and follow him, he will lead us every step we take, tell us whether to turn to the right hand or to the left, to go here or go there, to do this or do that. It is a very real and very intimate relationship, but in the end, we will not stand before Jesus and boast that we did this or did that, but do we “know” him? Do we know the fellowship of his spirit? Does he speak to us from heaven, and each and every moment of our lives lead us in those things he would have us do? In our lives? Where we are? In whatever situation, whatever lot we may find ourselves? It’s a very personal, very intimate, very difficult way to follow, far more difficult than following the commandments of the Law because it sets the bar for obedience far, far higher, but the reward is fellowship with the Father and the Son through the Spirit.

We must be careful whose “guidance” we follow in these matters of doctrine. There are many, many who claim to believe in Jesus, and are most likely very sincere, and yet they advocate following the law … because it’s the only light they have.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[Deborah~]

This is both inaccurate (Easter is a word of West German or Saxon origin), and irrelevant, for while the word for the Feast of the Resurrection, as the holiday is formaly known, may be Easter in German and English, but not Dutch, or most other languages, where the Feast of the Resurrection is called Pascha, or a local variation on that word. For example, the Dutch call the holiday Passen.

None of the Early Church Fathers referred to Pascha by any other name, and furthermore, even in England and Germany and other countries where the name is a variant on Easter, the Orthodox Church tends to refer to the feast as Pascha, to avoid
confusion (just as we refer to the Feast of the Baptism of Our Lord as Theophany rather than Epiphany, to avoid confusion with the Western feast of the visitation of our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ by the Magi on the same day).

Thus, all arguments that seek to invalidate the Feast of the Resurrection based on the superficial similarity of a vernacular name for it in English and some other Germanic languages (but not all of them) to a Chaldean deity can be dismissed as irrelevant.

+​

Logically, they are the same as arguing that Pentecost is Pagan and should not be celebrated, because England, Pentecost is known as Whitsunday (because churches are decorated in wheat), and in Saxon paganism, the word Wiht can be used to refer to nature-dwelling spirits. Also it starts with W, which is also the first letter in the Saxon name for Odin, Woden (known as Wotan in German). And also Pentecost starts with “Pent” which are the first four letters of a Pentagram, a symbol that has in recent years become associated with the occult, witchcraft and devil worship.

Of course, all of this is irrelevant for the same reason the argument against the Feast of the Resurrection is irrelevant. Whitsunday is the English name for a holiday called Pentecost in Greek, introduced in the Old Testament as the Feast of Weeks, consisting of the seven weeks following Pascha, and is known in Hebrew as שבועות (Shavuot).

Thus, arguments against the Christian adaptation of Pascha that derive from the name it has received in a specific country are fundamentally irrelevant, since the name of the feast is, by definition, a nominal value. The substance of Pascha is the celebration of the Resurrection of Christ our Passover, whose blood was spilled so that we might be raised from the dead, like Him, and be accounted worthy to enter the Promised Land of the World to Come.

I have even heard these same nonsensical word games played with that venerated old saint Nicholas, that Santa is actually Satan because the name has the same letters! And of course, Santa is dressed in a red suit, so that clinches it.

While this may seem comical, playing loose with sacred things goes much deeper than that. While I am not orthodox and therefore not advocating for liturgical vestments, still, I am offended on behalf of my brethren who do make use of these instruments of worship and find it troubling that so many Christians would so easily accept the notion that the vestments of the Catholic Pope, for example, are based on ancient Babylonian pagan symbols because of some loose similarities. Just for example, I have seen this image offered as some kind of "proof" from people claiming that the mitre worn by the Pope is "pagan" because it vaguely resembles that worn by a priest of the ancient Babylonian idol "Dagon," in which fish were worshipped.

But I have spent many years studying all the "shadows" of New Covenant things in Old Covenant things, and in truth so very much of the ceremonial of the orthodox churches are drawn directly from 2nd Temple period worship, including the vestments of the priests, Jewish and Christian. Here is an example.

(Jewish priestly garments on the left and Christian priestly garments on the right)

As a sidebar when I get a chance to comment on this and something I find particularly interesting is that those rare individuals who have studied the 2nd Temple period music have discovered that the old form of monophonic song (Gregorian chant, for example) of the Christian traditions carries echos of the sacred music of the Levitical choir used in the Temple during New Testament times.

So much of Christian orthodox ceremonial is rich in these connections with ancient Jewish worship, and while I am Protestant and do not believe these instruments are necessary for worship, as a New Testament historian I can appreciate how they give us a taste of what Temple worship would have been like during the time of Jesus, and some idea of the music that might have met his ear when he entered the Temple.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My apologies for the delay in responding, sometimes life gets very busy.

I understand completely. No worries.

I realize the Hebrew saying “sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham” is a bit obscure, but it's familiar to those who have taken heed to not fall victim to a piece-meal reading of God’s Word. I would urge you in the love of Christ to take note of it. Allow me to quote the whole prophecy of the “blindness” that can so easily afflict students of God's Word: “Whom shall the Lord teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breast (cf. Hebrews 5:13-14). But command must be upon command, command upon command, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, a little here, a little there. But with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest, and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was to them command upon command, command upon command, rule upon rule, rule upon rule, a little here, and a little there: that they might follow, and stumble backwards, and be broken, and be snared, and be captured.” (Isaiah 28:9-13)

Nice scripture and agree with it completely, but you seem to be misapplying it as if it someone how is arguing against obeying God's Word. Did you know Jesus used the Ten Commandments and God's Word as interchangeable. You can read this for yourself in Mark 7. Did you know every time we see the word "rest" it does not always mean the Sabbath. The Sabbath rest is always connected to the seventh day.

These are God's written and spoken Word- which there is no greater authority than He.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. It's why almost all ancient languages Saturday translates into Sabbath

There is another rest in scripture that many misuse and apply it to the Sabbath, but its not. There is rest that one receives in Christ when one is living in harmony with God, His Word, which is also His commandments. In Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments- its just peace.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

I'm glad you seem to believe the words of the Prophet Isaiah - You might consider reading Christ Words through Isaiah -Isaiah 55:8, Isaiah 56:1-7 Isa 58:13-14 Isa 66:22-23 Isa 8:20 You might gain a different perspective through these important teachings, most spoken directly from God, which we are to live by Mat 4:4

This should be a warning about the very kind of doctrine development that is the whole basis of your post, taking a verse here or there, taking them out of their context, and then reading doctrine into them.

Agreed, but when God gives us the definition of something. regardless if it from the beginning of time or towards the end of time, He changes not. 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

It's why we are given instruction to put our trust in God (through His Word) and not lean on our own understandings Pro 3:5-6 God's Word is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 and outside of it is danger. Isa 8:20

It’s why I don’t generally cite a particular verse of Scripture.

And will probably be why this will be my last post. It's too hard to reason our opinions over the clear Word of God. They are not the same.

The Word of God isn’t a laundry list of disconnected commandments and rules that you can strip of context and then assemble them to support some viewpoint.

Amen. God is consistent all throughout the bible. Its why Jesus taught on the Ten Commandments and lived them to be our example. Sin is what separated man from God Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us. Not only did He come to take away the penalty of sin, He did not take away the law that is sin when broken, the Ten Commandments Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 He lived them out and kept every one of them John 15:10 including the Sabbath Luke 4:16 for our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Many want the blessings Jesus gives, but they don't really want Jesus. It was the same issue in His time and nothing has changed. Many professed "Christians" rejected Jesus and His teachings, just like they do today just like Jesus predicts at His Second Coming. Mat 7:21-23

. And your repeated contention that, “The Ten Commandments is a separate covenant where God alone wrote and spoke the Ten Commandment and after He wrote and spoke them no more was added. Only the Ten Commandments was placed inside the ark of the covenant Exo 40:20,” is an example of that.

You seem to be arguing with the Text. It's not "my contention" its what the Text clearly states. Here it is again

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 5:22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

I do not see Moses taking credit for God’s work. Man is not equal to God even though Moses was a beloved Phopeht, he is not God. I beleive we should let God take credit for His work.

Go back and read Exodus 19-20, all together, as one connected story of Israel’s encounter with God at Mt. Sinai. In the beginning, God began speaking His commandments directly to the people (20:1). But when the people saw the thundering and lightnings and trumpet blasts and the whole mountain smoking they were terrified, and they ran away in fear. So they told Moses to speak to them and they would listen to him, but don’t let God speak to them, lest they die (v. 19). So from that point forward, God did not speak directly to the people again (nothing more was added), but he spoke the rest of his commandments to them through Moses. And that was an end of God speaking directly to the people. From that moment forward, God spoke to them through Moses (who recorded everything God had said) and through the prophets, but never again did God speak to Israel with an audible voice from heaven, not until the baptism of Jesus.

I have read it many times. I'm not saying God did not give Moses other laws that Moses handwrote in a book, Deut 31:24 that was placed outside the ark as witness against Deut 31:24 for breaking what was inside the ark- God's perfect, holy and eternal law that defines sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and what all man will be judged by. Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 which is the ark of the covenant sits under His Mercy Seat revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 Removing one jot or tittle from God's eternal, Authoritative, holy law that God personally wrote and shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments Exo 20:6 seems like a really bad idea to me. But we are given free will. God's Ten Commandments didn't start in Mt Sinai its where He wrote them personally for the whole nation of Israel which repents His people. The law that was added because of sin cannot be the same law that is sin when broken. Without law there is no transgression Rom 4:15 hence why it was sin for Cain to kill Abel. Because God's Ten Commandments was known from the beginning. What do you think Lucifer covered in heaven? What is a covering Cherub? It is the Angels who covered the mercy seat over the ark of the covenant which holds God's Ten Commandments. No Kingdom can operate without laws and God's heavenly Kingdom is no different, yet people reject God's commandments and teach against them, despite the clear teachings of Jesus Mat 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 and the example He lived. Rebellion to God hasn't changed and comes in all forms. Breaking even one of the commandments James said only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12 and why Jesus taught, not to break or teach others to break the least of these as it will affect our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30 i.e. off the narrow path Mat 15:3-14

So the 10 Commandments were not a separate covenant, or a separate law.

Here's the scripture again, please read it prayerfully and carefully because it truly cannot be any clearer. God doing is not the same as man doing.

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 5:22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

But in closing this note let me say this: You keep talking about “following Jesus’ example.” But Jesus never said to follow his example. He said to follow him. Jesus Christ is alive. And he promised that if we believe in him, he will come to us in the spirit and will dwell with us and speak to us, and each and every moment of our lives he will teach us and instruct us and lead us. And if we are willing to take up our cross and follow him, he will lead us every step we take, tell us whether to turn to the right hand or to the left, to go here or go there, to do this or do that. It is a very real and very intimate relationship, but in the end, we will not stand before Jesus and boast that we did this or did that, but do we “know” him? Do we know the fellowship of his spirit? Does he speak to us from heaven, and each and every moment of our lives lead us in those things he would have us do? In our lives? Where we are? In whatever situation, whatever lot we may find ourselves? It’s a very personal, very intimate, very difficult way to follow, far more difficult than following the commandments of the Law because it sets the bar for obedience far, far higher, but the reward is fellowship with the Father and the Son through the Spirit.

We must be careful whose “guidance” we follow in these matters of doctrine. There are many, many who claim to believe in Jesus, but advocate following the law … because it’s the only light they have.

So are you really going to try to separate following the example Jesus left for us written in scripture through His Word 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-23 Heb 4:15 James 1:22 is different than following Him. My friend, you are sadly mistaken.

This is how we follow Jesus

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

So what are the conditions for Jesus to know us because if He doesn't know us, we can't hear His voice and follow Him.

1. We must believe. How does one believe in Jesus but not believe or follow His teachings. Such as Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13, Mark 2:27 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 58:13 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 etc

2. We must hear His voice. How do we do that. Through His Word. If we reject His teachings, we can't hear His voice.

3. He knows them. How do we know Jesus. Lets go to God's Word to show us how we know Him and not lean on our own understandings. (see below)

4. They follow Him- through His example. Just like the apostles did. 1 Corinthians 11:1

This is the test of knowing God. Pretty simple.

John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments

Compared to those He doesn't know.

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

 

[Deborah~]

I understand completely. No worries.

Nice scripture and agree with it completely, but you seem to be misapplying it as if it someone how is arguing against obeying God's Word. Did you know Jesus used the Ten Commandments and God's Word as interchangeable. You can read this for yourself in Mark 7. Did you know every time we see the word "rest" it does not always mean the Sabbath. The Sabbath rest is always connected to the seventh day.

These are God's written and spoken Word- which there is no greater authority than He.
Exodus 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. It's why almost all ancient languages Saturday translates into Sabbath

There is another rest in scripture that many misuse and apply it to the Sabbath, but its not. There is rest that one receives in Christ when one is living in harmony with God, His Word, which is also His commandments. In Christ rest there is no rebellion to Him or His commandments- its just peace.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments!
Then your peace would have been like a river,
And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

I'm glad you seem to believe the words of the Prophet Isaiah - You might consider reading Christ Words through Isaiah -Isaiah 55:8, Isaiah 56:1-7 Isa 58:13-14 Isa 66:22-23 Isa 8:20 You might gain a different perspective through these important teachings, most spoken directly from God, which we are to live by Mat 4:4





Agreed, but when God gives us the definition of something. regardless if it from the beginning of time or towards the end of time, He changes not. 2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

It's why we are given instruction to put our trust in God (through His Word) and not lean on our own understandings Pro 3:5-6 God's Word is to be the light to our path Psa 119:105 and outside of it is danger. Isa 8:20

And will probably be why this will be my last post. It's too hard to reason our opinions over the clear Word of God. They are not the same.

Amen. God is consistent all throughout the bible. Its why Jesus taught on the Ten Commandments and lived them to be our example. Sin is what separated man from God Isa 59:2 Jesus came to reconcile us. Not only did He come to take away the penalty of sin, He did not take away the law that is sin when broken, the Ten Commandments Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 He lived them out and kept every one of them John 15:10 including the Sabbath Luke 4:16 for our example to follow 1 John 2:6. Many want the blessings Jesus gives, but they don't really want Jesus. It was the same issue in His time and nothing has changed. Many professed "Christians" rejected Jesus and His teachings, just like they do today just like Jesus predicts at His Second Coming. Mat 7:21-23

You seem to be arguing with the Text. It's not "my contention" its what the Text clearly states. Here it is again

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 5:22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.

Exo 32:16 Now the tablets were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God engraved on the tablets.

I do not see Moses taking credit for God’s work. Man is not equal to God even though Moses was a beloved Phopeht, he is not God. I beleive we should let God take credit for His work.

I have read it many times. I'm not saying God did not give Moses other laws that Moses handwrote in a book, Deut 31:24 that was placed outside the ark as witness against Deut 31:24 for breaking what was inside the ark- God's perfect, holy and eternal law that defines sin Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 and what all man will be judged by. Mat 5:19-30 James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 which is the ark of the covenant sits under His Mercy Seat revealed in heaven Rev 11:19 Removing one jot or tittle from God's eternal, Authoritative, holy law that God personally wrote and shows mercy to those who love Him and keep His commandments Exo 20:6 seems like a really bad idea to me. But we are given free will. God's Ten Commandments didn't start in Mt Sinai its where He wrote them personally for the whole nation of Israel which repents His people. The law that was added because of sin cannot be the same law that is sin when broken. Without law there is no transgression Rom 4:15 hence why it was sin for Cain to kill Abel. Because God's Ten Commandments was known from the beginning. What do you think Lucifer covered in heaven? What is a covering Cherub? It is the Angels who covered the mercy seat over the ark of the covenant which holds God's Ten Commandments. No Kingdom can operate without laws and God's heavenly Kingdom is no different, yet people reject God's commandments and teach against them, despite the clear teachings of Jesus Mat 5:17-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 and the example He lived. Rebellion to God hasn't changed and comes in all forms. Breaking even one of the commandments James said only quoting and contrasting the Ten Commandments is like breaking them all. James 2:10-12 and why Jesus taught, not to break or teach others to break the least of these as it will affect our status in heaven Mat 5:19-30 i.e. off the narrow path Mat 15:3-14


Here's the scripture again, please read it prayerfully and carefully because it truly cannot be any clearer. God doing is not the same as man doing.

Deut 4:13 So He (God) declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

Exo 34:28 So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He (God) wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

Deut 5:22 “These words the Lord spoke to all your assembly, in the mountain from the midst of the fire, the cloud, and the thick darkness, with a loud voice; and He added no more. And He wrote them on two tablets of stone and gave them to me.


So are you really going to try to separate following the example Jesus left for us written in scripture through His Word 1 John 2:6 1 Peter 2:21-23 Heb 4:15 James 1:22 is different than following Him. My friend, you are sadly mistaken.

This is how we follow Jesus

John 10:25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.”

So what are the conditions for Jesus to know us because if He doesn't know us, we can't hear His voice and follow Him.

1. We must believe. How does one believe in Jesus but not believe or follow His teachings. Such as Mat 5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13, Mark 2:27 Isa 56:1-6 Isa 58:13 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 etc

2. We must hear His voice. How do we do that. Through His Word. If we reject His teachings, we can't hear His voice.

3. He knows them. How do we know Jesus. Lets go to God's Word to show us how we know Him and not lean on our own understandings. (see below)

4. They follow Him- through His example. Just like the apostles did. 1 Corinthians 11:1

This is the test of knowing God. Pretty simple.

John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments

Compared to those He doesn't know.

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’


1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Allow me to try to get us out of the weeds here and take a broader look at all this.

You keep arguing the merits of God's commandments. NO ONE is saying the commandments contained in the written oracles of God, whether it's the 10 Commandments written on tables of stone, or all the commandments written in the Law of Moses, no one is arguing that they are not wonderful, holy, righteous, even instructive to those of us who are not under that covenant, but under a new covenant. But how wonderful and holy the Law was is not the point. Whether those who obeyed the commandments would be blessed or not is not the point.

The point is that you are assuming that the commandments of God is not just part of the Word of God, you are assuming the commandments is the WHOLE "Word of God," that there is "no greater authority," that the Law is the "final authority" on matters of life and godliness, the complete revelation of God's will for his people. You say things that are very telling like

His Word, which is also His commandments

No, God's Word is more than His commandments. God's Word is all the Bible, all the books of the Bible, including the New Testament! And Jesus is "the Word made flesh," the whole Bible, not just the commandments, but the entirety of God's revelation to man.

And the final authority is not the commandments. The final authority on all matters that pertain to life and godliness is JESUS, the "Word made flesh." Jesus is the whole Word of God, the final authority on everything that pertains to life and godliness.

This Great and Wondrous and Holy plan of God from the foundation of the world was not the 10 Commandments! It was Jesus Christ, the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Do you need me to cite the scripture?)

God's perfect, holy and eternal law that defines sin

No, the law does not "define sin." Jesus defines sin, even that sin which no commandment of the Law addressed, that sin that Jesus said takes place in the heart that doesn't even violate a commandment of the Law, like looking at a woman to lust after her even without breaking the commandment to not commit adultery, or hating a brother without cause even without breaking the commandment to not murder. Jesus is the final authority on what is sin, and he alone, through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, is the ONLY authority who can truly "define" for us what sin and unrighteousness really is, even sin that doesn't violate a commandment of the Law.

what all man will be judged by.

Again, no, all men will not be judged by the Law. All men will be judged "by Jesus Christ," and the final judgment will not be whether or not they have broken God's law, but whether or not their "names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Do you need me to cite the Scripture?)

Unlike most who post on these boards, I do not assume you are ignorant of the Scriptures and need a citation for each and every point. Rather the opposite. I assume that those who are posting on these boards and discussing these oftentimes very deep doctrines on the Scriptures have probably read and studied a great deal and are very familiar with the Scriptures and don't require citations for every point made. If there is something I say that you are not familiar with and would like to see citations that support it, then please, just ask. But otherwise, I will assume you know the Bible well enough to know whether or not the things I am saying are Scriptural, even though you may not agree with what I think they mean.

People who refuse to follow Jesus have to follow the Law, at least that part of the Law that can even be obeyed. But the light of the Law is merely a shadow compared to the light of Christ, and when we are "made alive" in Christ we are no more subject to the fleshly constraints of the letter of the Law, because we are constrained by the very Spirit of Him who is "the Word Made Flesh" (the whole revealed Word God) to obey from the heart those things that transcend the law in its revelation of godliness, that is by "walking in the spirit," that is living a life that is in subjection to the spirit of Christ that dwells in us that will "purge our conscience" so that we "can serve a God who is alive" and who will "speak to us" and "make known to us all His good pleasure." Jesus is not a bridge to bring us to the Law. The Law was the bridge God used to bring the world to Christ.

But for those of us who serve God under this New Covenant where we walk "in the spirit," the Law of God still has valuable lessons to teach us. I have been studying the Law for over 40 years. But the Law teaches us by using earthly things (concrete things and sins of the flesh) as object lessons to teach us about heavenly things (spiritual things and sins of the heart). This is the tragic stone that causes so many of the Jewish people to stumble. They are actually blinded by the glory of the letter of the Law, for all the reasons you keep insisting on in your comments, so that they cannot see, they are actually blinded by it so that they cannot see the spirit of the Law, which is far more glorious.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Allow me to try to get us out of the weeds here and take a broader look at all this.

You keep arguing the merits of God's commandments. NO ONE is saying the commandments contained in the written oracles of God, whether it's the 10 Commandments written on tables of stone, or all the commandments written in the Law of Moses, no one is arguing that they are not wonderful, holy, righteous, even instructive to those of us who are not under that covenant, but under a new covenant. But how wonderful and holy the Law was is not the point. Whether those who obeyed the commandments would be blessed or not is not the point.

So are you saying you agree we should keep God's holy and righteous commandments, that includes the Sabbath commandment? Yet every turn you seem to be arguing against keeping them.

The point is that you are assuming that the commandments of God is not just part of the Word of God, you are assuming the commandments is the WHOLE "Word of God," that there is "no greater authority," that the Law is the "final authority" on matters of life and godliness, the complete revelation of God's will for his people. You say things that are very telling like

Can you please quote once where I said the Ten Commandments is the whole Word of God?

No, God's Word is more than His commandments. God's Word is all the Bible, all the books of the Bible, including the New Testament! And Jesus is "the Word made flesh," the whole Bible, not just the commandments, but the entirety of God's revelation to man.

Of course its the whole bible, but Jesus used the Ten Commandments and the Word of God interchangeably Mark 7- you might consider reading it for yourself.

And the final authority is not the commandments. The final authority on all matters that pertain to life and godliness is JESUS, the "Word made flesh." Jesus is the whole Word of God, the final authority on everything that pertains to life and godliness.

So His teachings are not the final Authority? I'm confused what you're saying- Jesus is the final Authority but not His teachings? How does that work?

This Great and Wondrous and Holy plan of God from the foundation of the world was not the 10 Commandments! It was Jesus Christ, the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world." (Do you need me to cite the scripture?)

You're making arguments no one is making. But what you seem to be forgetting is that sin separated us from God. Isa 59:2 Do you really think doing the same thing that separated man from God is going to reconcile us. You might want to read Rev 22:14 Mat 7:23 1 John 2:4

No, the law does not "define sin." Jesus defines sin,

So are we to ignore the plain scriptures?

God's Word says the law defines sin. Its why so many people are confused- they use their version of righteousness to define sin, instead of God's Psa 119:172

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” A direct quote from the Ten Commandments- breaking one we break them all James 2:10-12

Again, no, all men will not be judged by the Law.

Again, I am going to have to defer back to God's Word on this matter.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Matt 5:21 “You have heard that it was said to those [d]of old, ‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment.

Not only does Jesus say we will be judged by thou shalt not murder- but if keep anger and contempt in our hearts towards our neighbor we will be judged by them

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God and keep His commandments,
For this is man’s all.
14 For God will bring every work into judgment,
Including every secret thing,
Whether good or evil.

And we see how it plays out when Jesus comes. He tells us these things a head of time for our own good.

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who [g]do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 [h]But outside (judgement) are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

1 John 2:4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

All men will be judged "by Jesus Christ," and the final judgment will not be whether or not they have broken God's law, but whether or not their "names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." (Do you need me to cite the Scripture?)

Yes, we will all be judged by Christ 2 Cor 5:10 based on God's law as demonstrated by scripture above. No judge can make a verdict unless there is a standard to judge by and God's Judgement is no different.

Unlike most who post on these boards, I do not assume you are ignorant of the Scriptures and need a citation for each and every point.

Well so far take a look at your statements compared to God's Word. Its why we are not to rely on our own understandings, but let God (through His Word) direct our path Pro 3:5-6 Psa 119:105.

People who refuse to follow Jesus have to follow the Law,

The law brings us to Christ Psa 19:7 Gal 3:24 and Christ brings us to obey the law.

Jesus said:
John 14:15 “If you love Me, keep My commandments.
Exodus 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So how do we have Jesus if we don't love Him or serve Him or live by His every Word Mat 4:4

But for those of us who serve God under this New Covenant where we walk "in the spirit," the Law of God still has valuable lessons to teach us.

The New Covenant didn't do away with God's law- it is written in our heart Heb 8:10 because it is where sin begins, in the heart. Mat 5:19-30 and when we keep our rules over obeying the commandments of God our hearts are far from Him. Mat 15:3-14

I have been studying the Law for over 40 years. But the Law teaches us by using earthly things (concrete things and sins of the flesh) as object lessons to teach us about heavenly things (spiritual things and sins of the heart). This is the tragic stone that causes so many of the Jewish people to stumble. They are actually blinded by the glory of the letter of the Law, for all the reasons you keep insisting on in your comments, so that they cannot see, they are actually blinded by it so that they cannot see the spirit of the Law, which is far more glorious.

You might consider what Jesus says are the blind and where they end up. Mat 15:3-14 and its not living by His every Word. Mat 4:4 and having faith to follow His teachings.