• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

What’s Behind Today’s Attacks on Marriage?

Today’s explosive attacks on marriage are driven by a sinister plot.

By the time you read this article, I will have returned from whisking my lovely bride away to a secret location in celebration of our twentieth wedding anniversary. And while I must preface the coming statement with the obligatory “It’s not perfect,” by God’s grace, we have a wonderful marriage, and I can wholeheartedly say my wife is my greatest earthly blessing! Regrettably, many people miss the wonderful purpose and profound joy of marriage because they’ve been influenced by a number of lies about this biblical institution.

Without question the biblical concept of marriage—one man for one woman for life—is under severe assault today. Under the influence of the “father of lies” (John 8:44), Western culture is redefining and dismissing this foundational institution. The enemy’s tactics have been calculated and catastrophically effective.

Why have his attacks been so devastating? The answer is complex, but a major factor in Satan’s recent success is his attack on foundations. You see, for a culture to abandon the ingrained, traditional, biblical definition of marriage, it first must question the source of that definition. This is the devil’s strategy, and it’s not a new scheme. His ploy is as old as Genesis 3: “Did God really say?”

The strategy is simple: Use subtle questions and seemingly harmless ideas to get people to doubt, and ultimately reject, the authority of God’s Word. Undermine biblical teachings by undermining the Bible itself.

Continued below.
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Im 34, new to church, and never pursued or been attracted to a church girl...until now:

So I will try to keep this brief but will answer any questions that need clarifying

Ive been saved since 2020 or so. i only recently started going to church (God brought me to a nearby church because i have recently been going through things)

I have not dated at all since ive been saved, but in starting going to church, i met a very sweet girl. she works at the church and we've had some brief and pleasant convos about the lord and she was very welcoming and sweet

so every time i go, she always seems to find me (i usually go alone), she remembers my name. on resurrection day, she found me again sitting alone, asked me what book I was reading (it was romans) and was cracking a couple silly jokes

question a) does this read as interest on her part? my father and my friends say its a good possibility but i have no clue if shes just being a sister in christ, or if shes interested. ive never been involved with a girl that was saved, i dont know how they show interest or flirt, etc. i might be reading too many signals but my dad said "well....do you see her approaching anyone else alone and asking what theyre reading?". i am bad at reading interest from women and in the past, in my pre-God life, can really never been able to tell if a girl is interested romantically or as just friends until she really makes it explicit

question b) I want to get to know this girl better. we've only had a few brief exchanges over the passed couple weeks (she works at the church so she only has a brief chat before going back to work). i dont know her personality, sense of humor, her interest or anything, and would be interested in knowing more about her. but again, ive never really associated with a girl that was saved or had any relationship with Christ. i dont know how to approach her in a manner that is appropriate. i am new at the church, i dont want her to think im approaching her for (only) sex or anything (because she doesnt know me either). i want to approach her with intent of getting to know about her for the potential of dating, but i also want to be respectful of her, her relationship to God and my own relationship to God as well. she works at the church, she obviously has a close relationship with the Lord and is devoted, i am interested in her, but i dont want to give the impression that its for sex and/or to drag her away her from God

advice? as i said, i have not really dated since being saved. this is a new kind of girl, i know im overthinking probably, but i dont know how to navigate with a godly woman i guess. do they expect more conservative/aggressive men? being traditional and formal? its all new to me. i of course have leaned on God to guide me and to trust he will give me the correct mindset to put me in the right place (regardless of the girl or whatever). but does anyone have any advice or guidance?

Fugitive (on child sexual abuse image charges) former US city councillor enlists with Russia for war in Ukraine

A former city councillor and member of the Massachusetts national guard who is wanted in the US on child sexual abuse image charges has fled the country and joined the Russian army fighting in Ukraine.

Wilmer Puello-Mota, 28, former city councillor of Holyoke, Massachusetts, went missing on 7 January, two days before he was scheduled to appear in court in Rhode Island in possession of child sexual abuse images and obstruction of justice charges.

Pro-war bloggers close to the Russian military and state media on Thursday made no mention of Puello-Mota’s fugitive status in the US, instead spinning his defection as a PR coup for Moscow.

“Will served in the US armed forces, but after realising what was really happening in Ukraine, he joined the war as a volunteer a few months ago. Together with the Russian guys, he liberated Avdeevka shoulder to shoulder,” the prominent pro-war blogger Yuri Kotenok wrote on telegram.

Another Russian report said: “[Puello-Mota] is staunchly convinced of the need to support Russia and admires the tenacity and heroism of our soldiers.”

Israeli doctor says detained Palestinians are undergoing ‘routine’ amputations for handcuff injuries

A doctor at a field hospital for detained Palestinians at Israel’s Sde Teiman army base has described “deplorable conditions” and “routine” amputations due to handcuff injuries, according to an exclusive report from the newspaper Haaretz.

In a letter to Israel’s attorney general and defense and health ministers, obtained by Haaretz, the doctor said the conditions at Sde Teiman field hospital compromise inmates’ health and violate medical ethics.

“Just this week, two prisoners had their legs amputated due to handcuff injuries, which unfortunately is a routine event,” the doctor said in the letter, according to the Haaretz report on Thursday. He wrote that inappropriate care at the detention facility has led to “complications and sometimes even in the patient’s death,” adding that “this makes all of us – the medical teams and you, those in charge of us in the health and defense ministries, complicit in the violation of Israeli law.”

In a written statement to CNN responding to the claims, an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) spokesperson said: “The IDF operates according to the law and within the framework of the law when it comes to the treatment of detainees. ... The handcuffing of the detainees is carried out in accordance with the procedures, their health condition and the level of danger posed by them, in order to ensure the safety of the forces and the medical staff.”

CNN spoke to a source who has a medical background and previously visited the Sde Teiman field hospital. They confirmed seeing detainees held in constant restraints.

The medical source, who spoke to CNN on Thursday on the condition of anonymity for fear of reprisals, said all the Gazan detainees they saw at the field hospital had all four limbs shackled, which the source said increases the risk of blood clotting and other health concerns.

Trump's first health report in years relies on an osteopathic physician who is a member of his golf club

Former president has declined to release details about his own condition beyond a short letter from his physician, contrasting with Biden’s detailed report

This assessment, however, stood in stark contrast to the relatively detailed reports released by the White House during his term. Instead of specifics like blood pressure and medications, the letter had just three paragraphs without specific numbers proclaiming that Trump was in “excellent health” and had “exceptional” cognitive ability. It did not disclose Trump’s weight.

And after relying on a longtime personal doctor and then two White House physicians who had attested to his well-being in office, Trump turned to an unknown on the national stage to provide this report: Bruce A. Aronwald, a 64-year-old osteopathic physician from New Jersey — and a longtime member of Trump’s Bedminster golf club.

Biden has released a six-page letter that details his blood tests, conditions and medications, which the White House said gives voters a clearer picture of health. “Joe Biden is proud to have been transparent with his health records as Vice President, as a presidential candidate, and as President,” White House spokesman Andrew Bates said in a statement. “He believes all leaders owe that level of honesty to the American people.”

Lefse

Has anyone here made lefse? Are there any tricks? I tried once and got so frustrated because it was too sticky. I also found out my griddle isn’t an actual lefse griddle (although it is round), so I had to guess at the temperature. It was hard to make it thin enough without ripping it with the turning stick, too. My grandmother passed away before I was old enough to learn to cook lefse. My mom wouldn’t ever make it herself because the one time she tried, the Norwegian half of the family said it didn’t taste right (she had a hard time with my dad’s family).

Why is there suffering if God is real?

Hello all,

I can't help but to question the existence of God particularly because of suffering in the world. e.g. I read the news regarding 5yo being raped and killed to say the least amongst all the other pain experienced by myself or others in the world.

I have read about the Adam and Eve answers but I don't quite understand - why would God create that tree just to test Adam and Eve but punishing us when we're totally unrelated? I have also heard answers about free will, why create hatred just so we can feel loved? Why not just fill us with a copious amount of love with free will of who we interact with so that we feel loved by each other everyday (just our choice on who we want to interact with but regardless, still loving one another) whether on Earth or in Heaven. What's the point of all these "tests" and "temporary time" on Earth?

Feels like God is treating us like an experiment in someway.

Saw a massive UFO at dawn

3:45 am. I got awakened by the hot and humid temperatures at our apartment when the AC started malfunctioning so I went out the balcony to reset the A/C's breaker. I usually wait a few minutes before switching the breaker back on to make sure the A/C's digital system made a hard reset.

While waiting, I looked up from our balcony to see the stars and saw something unusual. The stars are mildly shimmering as if looking at the stars from under the water.

So I scratched my eyes and shook my head thinking it could be me and I looked up again and saw the same shimmer all over the sky on top of our apartment building. The shimmer was too mild to appear on photo so I didn't bothered to get my phone.

I turned the breaker back on and got back inside but looked one more time at the night sky and saw a giant rod-shaped UFO flying away at hypersonic speed.

The UFO glowed in the night sky as white, sparkling perfectly straight object speeding towards the horizon. As the UFO disappeared in the horizon and behind the clouds, it's white glow turned yellow and then red like the setting sun.

If the UFO's changing color is consistent with atmospheric refraction then the UFO is already outside the atmosphere, in space. It flew over an area with busy air traffic over a mountain range with persistent clouds. I always see planes approaching for landing in that area. Before these planes make the final turn to line up for landing, they're still far away and appear as no more than a tiny dot.

Since the UFO flew behind these persistent clouds over the mountain range where planes line up for landing, the UFO is at least as far away as these approaching planes. Yet, it's not a dot. It's a large glowing rod in the sky well over 10x longer than any of those huge airliners. And if the UFO is much farther away in space, it would be at least several miles in length.

Most ironically, there were no planes flying in that area at that time.

My theory due to the appearance of a very massive UFO speeding at hypersonic speed towards the horizon, towards the Sun, is that the shimmer I saw just above our apartment is a smaller UFO using some kind of stealth technology that also rendered it optically invisible, yet not perfect, thus causing a slight shimmer that was visible.

The nearby UFO caused our A/C to malfunction (Not purposely). For some reason, the smaller UFO flew back to the huge mothership what is in space and it was the mothership that I saw flying away.

I scanned for UFO reports in our area and found none. It's probably not surprising nobody else saw it because of the time. Everybody's probably sleeping and the UFO is incredibly fast. I only saw it for couple of seconds. I tried to get my phone for picture but it was gone before I even turned around to get my phone.

Our A/C had malfunctioned in the same fashion for several times now in a period of 4 years. Unknown reason. I'd hate to think every time our A/C is acting up we're getting unwanted visitors. Indeed really strange things have happened in our apartment of paranormal nature usually at night. I'm even having strange dreams in our apartment as well about a "door" that doesn't really exist in a physical sense.
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  • Poll
Which Political Candidates Do Best With Ephesians 4:29 in Talking the Talk and Following Through With Service To Others?

Which US Candidate(s) Do Best in Talking The Talk, Ephesians 4:29 and Matthew 5:37 ?

  • Joe Biden

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • Donald Trump

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Nikki Haley

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Robert Kennedy Jr.

    Votes: 1 14.3%
  • Ron DeSantis

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Mike Pence

    Votes: 5 71.4%
  • Chris Christie

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other write in - comment in thread, which will add to polling choices if much discussion of another

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Ryan Binkley

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Mike Johnson (of Louisiana)

    Votes: 2 28.6%

No one is perfect except Jesus with Ephesians 4:29 - 'Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen'. For those in politics, it is even more challenging to practice this verse, especially to a wider audience and even more so to the entire very diverse American public. As far as politicians in speaking and following through on their actions, Matthew 5:37 also should mention - 'But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.' Also a politician who sincerely talks with and prays to the God of a number of faiths regularly serving Him. And so that is talking the talk. But then in walking the walk, there are many examples of Jesus and each of us, whether professing to be a Believer or still seeking and not yet there what we do in our day to day actions in our service to others including our communites. And that is difficult for a political servant of the people, especially working with people with varied backgrounds, including those in power such as other members of Congress to get beneficial legislation passed.

The intent of this thread is to help us in voting in November general election to find those candidates who are best in doing Ephesians 4:29, Matthew 5:37, and following through on their actions to help our country going forward. As know from past elections, we have all seen TV ads of candidates, news clips, or postal mailings of mud slinging their opponents and that is a quite a focus of their campaign. Think of candidates who more publicly speak of what they will do positively for our country. Looking forward to comments about candidates who even very unlikely will be elected, but you are voting your God given conscience, each of us thinking what is best for our loved One or ones, knowing in the final election outcome that Romans 13:1 applies -'Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.' No one knows except God what will happen in the country in the next months prior to November, James 4:13-16. Others have mentioned the movie The Longest Yard from 2005 which I have watched recently, where we may end up with an election where no candidate gets a majority of the electoral or even the popular vote for President, and events from that movie may play out in this election season.

To help keep this thread focused, besides bringing up positive candidate actions for our country:

- Only those *in* or running for federal office, President, Vice President, House of Representatives, or Senate. Separate similar threads could be started for regions less than the entire US or regions around the world, but those people may not be well known across the US or around the globe.

- Candidates must be a US Citizen and/or must otherwise qualify for the federal position they are running for.

- Candidate can be actively running their campaign or have suspended it (suspend does not always mean terminate, which campaign could be resurrected)

- Candidate must be breathing and alive today on this earth. Even those who are older and even long out of politics, but had a good impact in the past, are OK to bring up. No fictitious characters from the movies, TV, entertainment theme parks, etc.

- For those are who starting in their political career or aspiring to run for Congress or President or VP, only bring up those who are already served or serving in federal office *or* who is or currently or in the past a state governor. For federal government service, It can be even be a Congressional staffer or someone who is serving or has served in a federal government agency position.

- For those candidates well less known, it will be helpful and beneficial to us to include URL/website news or video links, whether mainstream i.e. Fox, CNN or faith based, Christian Post, TBN. Refrain from bringing up unsubstantiated individual posts from other social media sources such as Reddit, TikTok, FaceBook, Twitter, YouTube (unless part of a sermon to a congregation), etc. who are external to Christian Forums.

Christian Researcher Debunks 'Urban Myth' About 50% US Divorce Rate: 71% Are Still Married!

For years, an urban legend has survived because it has been accepted as fact by many people – the myth that half of all marriages end in divorce.

So if you're getting married for the first time, the odds are even, right? 50/50? No. Nope. Nada. It's what would be called "disinformation" by some today. And the myth about a 50 percent divorce rate in the church is an even bigger lie.

One Christian author and social researcher Shaunti Feldhahn says the true divorce rate is much lower and always has been.

She has extensively researched the public perception of the 50% myth about divorce, trying to find its original source. And to her pleasant surprise, she couldn't find any.

She confessed to KLOVE that she had believed the myth too.

"When I started looking at the Census Bureau tables and CDC tables, and the Bureau of Vital Statistics – that's when I was like – 'wait a minute this does not match the narrative at all,'" Feldhahn explained.

She didn't just spend one afternoon in the local library looking into the subject. Her quest took her the next eight years, according to KLOVE.

Continued below.
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How to keep the faith despite the suffering in your life and others

Hi,

Suffering, no one likes to suffer, I am referrig to suffering that is not our fault, if it os your own fault (for example u commit a crime and go to jail, spending all ur money on drugs etc), well u have urself to blame. We have many examples of innocent suffering in the bible like Job, Paul etc. We have examples in our own life and observing others. Thing is, I have studied suffering, know all the answers like for example free will, sin of Adam and Eve, Satan and demons, God's thoughts and ways are not ours etc. But thing is, still not really satisfied and in peace with the answers. Suffering aint fun at all. Somehow trying to find a way to be really at peace when there is suffering. I am kinda disagreeing with God on the suffering stuff, it seems I am trying to not loose respect for God, trying not to think that God is not good, kinda having to force myself somehow, disappointed in God sometimes.
How can we handle suffering like a pro, how to crack this code ?

Br,

Outpouring of Support for Main Line Synagogue Hit By Antisemitic Vandalism

“Antisemitic acts have been increasing across our country for years. We worry we’re no longer welcome in this land,” he said. But after two generations “of the most peace and prosperity our people have known anywhere, we worry that this swastika, sprayed on a banner, means we’re doomed to go back to a world of swastikas again.”
It's wonderful to see those with different belief come together to stand up against the hate that has emerged in our country.

The New York Judge Who Gagged Trump Should Recuse Himself

"Significantly, Merchan’s daughter has a financial or economic interest in her father’s case. She and her clients raised some $93 million in campaign donations by citing the Trump prosecution in their solicitation mailings, according to reporting by The New York Post.
On this basis alone, Judge Merchan was obligated to recuse himself because a member of his family —which is identified a child under strict ethical guidelines— has a private, vested interest in the outcome of the case. Yet, he refuses to step aside despite the glaring conflict of interest. Meaning, the fix is in."

We cannot continue to allow liberal justices to make a mockery of our Constitution. They need to be replaced.

How one volunteer stopped a backdoor from exposing Linux systems worldwide

Linux, the most widely used open source operating system in the world, narrowly escaped a massive cyber attack over Easter weekend, all thanks to one volunteer.
The backdoor had been inserted into a recent release of a Linux compression format called XZ Utils, a tool that is little-known outside the Linux world but is used in nearly every Linux distribution to compresses large files, making them easier to transfer. If it had spread more widely, an untold number of systems could have been left compromised for years.

Anyone dealing with Bitterness as a Christian?

Im currently battling with Bitterness im grateful for everything God has blessed me with but there’s something I lack and it’s bothering me. People especially a ill-minded family member often lets me know im lacking in this department and often makes me even more bitter about it. How to deal with bitterness as a Christian and overcome it ?

Bought a mini laptop

I just picked up this mini laptop off of Amazon, it is 8-inches across and will fit in your pocket, love this, I am going to load it with dual-boot between Windows 11 and Kali Linux and I am going to use it for penetration testing. It is pretty powerful, 3.4 GHz CPU and 12 GB of RAM. It has a solid feel to it, weights about 1 pound. The display also swivels around so it will double as a tablet PC.
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Greek Orthodox monk stylin' in his velomobile in Chicago

Just sayin', being on that remote island in Alaska for five years can do things to a man.

I hope no one tries to carjack him there in Chicago. There must be at least one car in Chicago that no one will try to steal and this might be it.

I think this is the type of car we are all supposed to be driving within five years if you listen to Biden and some of the European lefties. I hope it has a heater in it. Could be difficult finding snow tires for it too but he seems to be moving to a plan.

What’s that lean, green, pedal-powered machine on Chicago streets? And who’s inside it?​

It’s a velomobile, and the man behind the wheel is Greek Orthodox monk Father Ephraim, who moved to the Northwest Side after five years at a religious commune in remote Alaska. And who wouldn’t want to navigate Chicago streets in a vehicle not much taller than a fire hydrant?​

By Stefano Esposito

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Am I worldy if I do this?

Hello! I am a guy who is interested in fitness, getting money, self improvement basically. I do it for both myself and others, I would like to bot be poor yet still be abke to provide for mt family, along w be and look strong but also defend others. I have put tegulations to make sure god is number one and making sure the habits are still not thw priority but I still am striving for personal glory considering I like doing it to be strong or have a stable financial situation. How about grooming my hair and making sure I look good?

Am I sinning, or being worldly or am i not sinning and just overthibking it?

A Rapture Study on Pre Wrath

I wrote this 21 years ago, and my belief now, is based on the final verse of scripture at the end of this. There are several passages that appear to indicate Jesus could come imminently at any time: what I find scripture doesn't say is that He will come BEFORE the actual tribulation starts, or if we would even know for sure we had entered into it. I also do not believe the Book of Revelation is in strait chronological order, but rather that it is written as Daniel, which expands upon previous visions in later chapters, giving us more detail about the same thing.
"Revelation isn’t meant to be read merely as a chronology of fantastic events. It should be seen as one set of events repeated seven times, each with increasing intensity. Revelation is apocalyptic—a genre defined by images, symbols, and references to the Old Testament and John’s ancient world." An Easier Way to Read Revelation

The Rapture
When Jesus Takes Us Out----
Sept 6, 2003

The scriptures tell of a time in the future when Jesus Christ will return for his people, and remove them from Earth. The most quoted verses in this teaching are in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first, then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." ~ This is what most Christians refer to as "The Rapture", or, the gathering or taking of the believers out of this world.

Another portion of scripture commonly quoted is 1 Corinthians 15:51-52: "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep (die) but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Many churches teach that this event will occur prior to the "Great Tribulation", which is going to be a 7-year period of great oppression on Earth under a dictator known as the Antichrist. The prophet Daniel speaks of Antichrist in detail. Jesus discusses The Great Tribulation in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17 and 21. Revelation gives details of events during The Tribulation. Several other Old Testament prophets make mention of events that will happen during this time.

What I hope to reveal in this message is that the Bible does not teach that Jesus will take the church (the believers) before The Tribulation, but rather, that He takes them at some point during The Tribulation- most likely nearer to the end of the 7 year period. We will learn from Gods own Word why this is so. We will let the Holy Scriptures show us The Truth.

Matthew 24 is a record of Jesus message about His second coming. After Talking about events that will transpire on Earth, including The Tribulation period (verse 21), Jesus says this: "Immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and The Moon shall not give her light, and The stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And THEN (Notice: then, after, - not before...) shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven, and then shall all the Tribes of the Earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a Trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heaven to the other."-(Matthew 24:29-31).

In Matthew 24 also, verses 48-51 are significant. There are many Christians teaching "Pre-Tribulation Rapture"- assuring their congregations that they don't have to worry about Antichrist or oppression under his dictatorship because Jesus will supposedly take them away before any of that ever happens. Is this error giving people a false sense of security? Imagine what will happen when suddenly an evil totalitarian regime comes into power and persecutes the church - and many of these churches have been led to believe they wouldn't be here to witness any of this!

"But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, my Lord delayed his coming, and shall begin to smite his coming, and shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, the Lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

This might be EXACTLY what some Christians would say once they realize Jesus did not come before the tribulation as they had been led to believe: "The Lord is delaying his coming!" And if some of them suddenly find themselves in the Tribulation, oppressed by Antichrists regime, they may very well begin to persecute their "fellow servants", those believers who had not held to their teachings, but had been prepared to endure Tribulation. Verse 50 states plainly the Lord of that servant shall come in a day he is NOT expected. So it is with the error of teaching a pre-Tribulation Rapture, which is a doctrine of escapism not found anywhere in the Bible.

2 Thessalonians 2 is also important to look at. It makes it clear "That Day" shall NOT COME until AFTER the man of sin (Antichrist) is revealed (verse 3) What "Day" is it talking about? Verse 1: "The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him." It was commonly being taught by some false teachers at that time that Jesus had already come for his people. Paul was assuring them this had not yet happened, and would not happen until after Antichrist was revealed.

It would be wise to pinpoint where exactly this "Rapture" or gathering of the church to Jesus is in Revelation. We find it in Revelation 14. Yet so many churches have taught that the rapture is described in Revelation 4:1, when John sees a door open in heaven and he is told to "come up hither." This is most certainly NOT the Rapture of the church. The door in heaven in Revelation 4:1 is simply a portal through which John himself is taken in order to receive the visions of the Revelation!

I have seen this verse (Revelation 4:1) taught in Bible College and in numerous denominations to be the time of the rapture in Revelation. I wonder if many of those who teach such error have ever had such an experience in The Spirit? How many visions of heavenly things have they had? Have they ever truly heard audible sounds from heaven, or been taken up in their spirit through a portal into another realm? Or are they book educated only? It is amazing that so many teachers are teaching such error, as the one claiming Revelation 4:1 is talking about Jesus taking his church in The Rapture!

These Teachers claim because Revelation 4:1 mentions a voice as it were of a trumpet, that this is the same as the "Trump of God" in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 and 1 Corinthians 15:52. It is interesting the Revelation Trumpet is actually a VOICE, whereas in 1 Thessalonians 4, the "Voice" is of the Archangel, and the trumpet of God is separate from this. Obviously Revelation 4:1 is a personal call to John to come up into the Spirit realm, and NOT anything to do with the church being caught up to meet Jesus in the air!

The sound of the trumpet John heard is also the same as he heard in Revelation 1:10. Trumpets are also sounded by Angels in revelation 8:13 and 9:14. Trying to tie in the trumpet in Revelation 4:1 to the trump of God at the Rapture is pure conjecture.

Revelation 14:14-16 describes the "Rapture" in its proper place - for here Jesus comes upon a cloud, exactly the same way scripture says he could. (See Matthew 24:30, 26:64, Luke 21:27, Acts 1:9-11, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, Revelation 1:7): "And I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of Man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the Temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle and reap, for the time has come for thee to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped."

There are some interesting things to observe here. First is that the Angel proclaims with the cry of a loud voice, which is also described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, where the Lord descends with a shout and the voice of the Archangel. Also, there are 4 angels mentioned in Revelation 14, (verses 6, 8, 9, and 15) which would correspond with the gathering by the angels from the 4 winds in Matthew 24:31. Zechariah makes mention of "Four Spirits of the Heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth" in Zechariah 6:1-8.

It is after this event, the reaping of the harvest of the earth, that the wicked are judged. This is described in Revelation 14:17-20 where another angel, which had power over fire calls for the "vine of the earth" to be cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. Then, after this, in Revelation 15, do we find the 7 Angels having the 7 last plagues, "For in them is filled up the wrath of God". These 7 angels carry 7 golden vials full of the wrath of God. THIS is God's wrath. Prior to that the earth is reeling under the wrath of the Antichrist, who is possessed by the Devil..."For the Devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." (Revelation 12:12) - But this is NOT the wrath of God himself.

One of the Pre-Tribulation teachers favorite verses used to promote the erroneous pre-Tribulation rapture is 1 Thessalonians 5:9, which says, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ." They claim this means Jesus will rescue us from the entire Tribulation, somehow concluding that the Tribulation itself is the wrath of God. Where they come up with such teachings, only God knows, but it surely is not what Jesus taught. Nowhere in the Bible is such a thing found! We WILL certainly escape God's wrath at the end of the Tribulation, and in his judgment, if we truly know God, but that occurs after the Antichrist has taken control of Earth.

In the Parable of The Wheat and Tares (Matthew 13:24-30 and 36- 43) Jesus compares the wheat to the children of the kingdom, and the Tares to the children of the wicked one. (Verse 38) Jesus says "Let both grow together until the harvest" (verse 30) and in Revelation 14 he describes this harvest. It takes place at "the end of the world, and the reapers are the angels" (verse 39).

We must also remember Revelation chapters 4-14 describe events in general, whereas chapters 15-18 describe some of the same events in detail. For instance, the fall of Babylon (The destruction of the U.S. by the European Kingdom) is referred to briefly in Revelation 14:8, but described in detail in chapters 17-18. Then chapter 19, to the end of Revelation, describe the coming of Jesus with His saints (redeemed souls) in power to destroy Antichrist's Kingdom and to take authority as king of the Earth for all eternity.

Luke 21:28 describes how we should start looking up, "when these things begin to come to pass"- telling us that the events of the Tribulation have already begun at the time we are to start looking up for Jesus coming to rescue us. Not before, but after some of the events of the Tribulation start to take place.

Luke 21:36 is yet one more verse used by Pre- Tribulation teachers to promote their doctrine; "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before The Son of Man." On the surface this might appear to support a pre-Tribulation Rapture, but what does it really mean? If it really meant "escape" in the sense of being taken out of the Earth, then Luke would be contradicting what he had just written in the previous several verses, as well as what Matthew and Mark wrote. Instead, the "escape" Luke refers to means escaping the wrath or judgment of God, escaping the consequences of unbelief, not allowing ones self to succumb to the power of Antichrist - but this does not mean escaping the entire 7 year Tribulation.

Daniel states the Antichrist will "wear out the saints of the Most High." (Daniel 7:25) Revelation 14:13 says "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth---" clearly there are believers on earth during the Tribulation. Of course the Pre - Tribulation teaching will tell us that the apostate church and unbelievers will somehow get saved after The Rapture, and somehow endure extreme persecution during the Tribulation- even though these people never truly knew God, have no experience at all with testing and trials of faith, and have no Spirit filled experienced teachers to guide them!

Hmm, now that sounds a little far out there, especially when the Bible makes absolutely no mention of a "Secret" Pre-Tribulation Rapture of all Spirit filled Christians, followed by the miraculous salvation of numerous unbelievers that somehow are able to endure the worst oppression ever upon the face of this Earth!

To further confuse matters, the Teachers of error refer to 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7 which says, "And now ye know what with oldeth that he might be reveled in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work, only he who now letteth, (meaning "Restrains" or "holds back") will let (restrain) until he be taken out of the way." They claim this refers to either the church herself, or the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church.

Here I'm going to make a serious indictment. The last days church is too weak and morally bankrupt to withhold anything! Jesus referred to this conduction when he addressed the Laodician church in Revelation 3:14-22. Not all churches fall under this indictment, but a large number do, unfortunately. Furthermore, the presence of the church in history, or the practice of Judaism in the Temple before Christ never withheld dictators and oppressors from dominating society.

The church did not prevent Nero Caesar, nor did it stop Adolph Hitler from taking power. Nor did it withhold Joseph Stalin and his totalitarian Communism. It is spiritual blindness to even suggest the church is what is withholding Antichrist! Even the American President in 1991, supposedly a Christian man, was preaching a "New World Order"- the very type of thing that Antichrist will proclaim with his One World government under the guise of United Nations, or some other union of the World.

The point is, 2 Thessalonians 2: 6-7 cannot mean the church or Holy Spirit. I believe it refers to the restraining hand of God himself, perhaps sentinel angels that withhold until the precise time. To speculate, it could even refer to certain powerful nations that would have to be removed before a one-world government was possible. Soviet Russia was one example, the United States is another. But this is just speculation. I believe it refers to God's restraining influence---since these nations were not in existence at the time Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians.

In the Parable of the 10 Virgins (Matthew 25:1-13) There is a cry at "midnight" that the bridegroom (symbolic of Jesus) is coming. This Word "midnight" actually comes from 2 Greek words that mean, "The middle of the night or evening."- Sometime during the night, and not specifically midnight as in 12 oclock.
"Night" can refer to the Tribulation period:" In that night there shall be two in one bed, the one shall be taken, the other left." (Luke 17:24) "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night" (1 Thessalonians 5:2).

The Tribulation period will be a time of great darkness and oppression on earth. It is something all Spirit led people should be prepared for. We should live as if Jesus would come this very day, but at the same time strengthen ourselves in The Holy Spirit and purity our hearts by faith. The church has become desensitized and cold to things of God. It's time to get serious, because only those who overcome will be the ones to meet the Lord. "And they overcame him (Satan) by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony---" (Revelation 13:11)

"Watch ye therefore, for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning, lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping"- (Mark 13:35-36).

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