Does Theistic Evolution Honor and Glorify God.

[Maria Billingsley]

We are told that God declares the end from the beginning and he watches over his word to perform what He said He would do.

Isaiah 46:10​

Jeremiah 1:12​

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Jeremiah 1:12
Science says that there are laws the govern and regulate everything. The Bible is pretty clear that law comes from God.

Not sure what " law" has to do with the creation texts in Genesis but thanks for engaging!
Be blessed.

 

[Diamond7]

Not sure what " law" has to do with the creation texts in Genesis but thanks for engaging!

Jesus made it clear that the law was given for us to judge ourselves, not to judge others.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Jesus made it clear that the law was given for us to judge ourselves, not to judge others.

Still confused on what you are trying to say but that's OK.

 

[Diamond7]

Still confused on what you are trying to say but that's OK.

We are talking about how Genesis chapter one is BOTH literal and symbolic. For example light is literal but it also symbolizes divine revelation, understanding, and truth.

To walk in the light means to live in alignment with God’s truth and righteousness. It’s not merely physical steps but a spiritual journey.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you claim to have all wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Do I need to "claim to have all wisdom and knowledge" to read "Do not take God's name in vain"??

Do you claim to be God?

Do I need to claim to "be God" to read Ex 20:8-11 legal code -- not at all poetry or symbolism?

My Bible says: Proverbs 3 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding; 6in all your ways acknowledge Him,

So does mine -- but I still can read "Do not take God's name in vain" and I can read Ex 20:8-11 as well as Gen 2:2-3.

I don't need to have infinite knowledge to get to the point of basic reading comprehension of text.

I am pretty sure that even Theistic Evolutionists will freely admit that Moses was not a darwinist.

I believe in a literal bible

Indeed - it means what it says but it contains both literal histories as well as parables and symbols as all Christians know.
For example we all admit that in John 10 - Jesus is not "a wooden door"

, I do not always understand, but I still believe and trust in God. I also believe in shadow and types. Galatians 4:24 says "Which things are an allegory".

Yep - literal animal sacrifices that pointed to the literal death of Christ on the literal cross -- by viewing them as symbols of that future event.

If we look at the law and the sacrifices we have to look at what they represent.

indeed - the lamb of God (a reference to the literal Jesus Christ)

Psalm 51:16 "For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; You do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart— These, O God, You will not despise.

true. Yet we can literally read "do not take God's name in vain" and we can see the actual historic account of Gen 1-2:4 summarized in Ex 20:8-11 - legal code.

 

[Vambram]

For the most part science is science and the Bible is Bible. They are two different books we study in two different classes. So we can ask When man's translation and interpretation of THE WORD OF GOD, contradicts the clear, easy to understand passages of the Bible. I have devoted myself to read, study and understand the Bible. I have read the Bible more than 5 times. How many times have your read your Bible. How many wore out Bible do you have to show me the extent you go to in your study of the word of God?View attachment 345712

I am glad that you have read the Bible through and through more than 5 times. I am glad that you say that you have a literal interpretation of the Bible. The two Bible colleges, which I attended by God's grace for a period of 7 years in the 1980s when I was attempting to follow the Lord's calling upon me to be a missionary, taught that the Scriptures be literally interpreted using strong homiletics and strong hermeneutics. God allowed me to attend Bible schools and university at Tennessee Temple University as well as Baptist Bible College.
By the grace, mercy, and love of God, I was born again in 1978. The Lord has blessed me dozens of times throughout the dozens of Bible studies going through the whole Scriptures.
And, I will say here what I have said elsewhere. I have absolutely Zero doubts that God created the Heavens and the earth and the galaxies in 6 literal 24 hour days. I have zero doubt that the Scriptures show that God is the Creator and that He did NOT use the process of evolution to bring life to this earth. He did NOT evolve humans OR the rest of life on this earth with macro-evolution.

 

[Diamond7]

. I have zero doubt that the Scriptures show that God is the Creator.

That is wonderful but I also want to know what God uses Science to show us. What does creation itself tell us. In Psalm 51:16 "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." The literal sacrifices do not please God, we have to look at what they represent. We have to search for what God is seeking to teach us.

 

[Diamond7]

Do I need to "claim to have all wisdom and knowledge" to read "Do not take God's name in vain"??

Then why do you do that. God does not give us the ability to judge others. He ONLY gives us the ability to judge ourselves.

I am pretty sure that even Theistic Evolutionists will freely admit that Moses was not a darwinist.

Moses wrote all of Genesis, not just chapter one. The garden of eden is what we call a biodiverse ecosystem. There are actually many Edens in the world. The Bible tells us that God created Adam from the dust of Eden and Science tells us where that dust comes from.

all admit that in John 10 - Jesus is not "a wooden door"

The point is that Jesus is the only way. I believe other religions have something to contribute but Jesus is the only way to God. I was seeking God and He showed me Jesus and Jesus showed me the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus and Jesus showed me the way to God.

 

[Vambram]

That is wonderful but I also want to know what God uses Science to show us. What does creation itself tell us. In Psalm 51:16 "You do not delight in sacrifice, or I would bring it; you do not take pleasure in burnt offerings." The literal sacrifices do not please God, we have to look at what they represent. We have to search for what God is seeking to teach us.

What does creation tell us? What did Jesus, Moses, and others say about creation? There are not passages of Scriptures teaching that the Lord God used macro evolution to create life on earth. If there are passages of verses in the Bible that support evolution, please post them here.

 

[NBB]

'Theistic evolution' if you think about it, its just slowed down 'intelligent design'.

 

[Diamond7]

passages of Scriptures teaching that the Lord God used macro evolution to create life on earth

Of course the scriptures talk about that in Genesis chapter one: "11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants. What part of seed-bearing plants do you have a problem with? How much time do you have to talk about this?

1. Microevolution and Seed Plants:
   • Microevolution refers to small-scale genetic changes within a population over time. It includes adaptations, mutations, and natural selection.
   • In the context of seed-bearing plants:
     • Adaptations: Over generations, plants adapt to their environment. For example, some angiosperms have evolved specific flower shapes to attract particular pollinators.
     • Genetic Variability: Microevolution occurs through genetic variations. Some seeds may carry advantageous traits, allowing those plants to thrive.
     • Natural Selection: Plants producing seeds with better survival chances pass on their genes. Gradually, the population adapts to local conditions.
     • Diversity: Microevolution contributes to the incredible diversity of seed-bearing plants we see today.

What part of small changes over time do you have a problem with? Do you know the difference between natural selection and selective breeding. Do you know what animal husbandry is?

Animal husbandry is a branch of agriculture concerned with the production and care of domestic animals. It encompasses day-to-day management, nutrition, selective breeding, and raising livestock for various purposes, including meat, milk, fiber, and other products12. Whether tending to dairy cows, shepherding sheep, or raising chickens, animal husbandry plays a vital role in our relationship with the animal kingdom.

I just had a situation like that with my son. He is considering a girl for marriage that has learning disabilities. I asked my son are you willing to raise children that do not get good grades in school. He said NO he would rather not. He graduated as a computer engineer with very good grades. Half the people flunk out of the engineering program. So I taught him about selective breeding and how he needs to improve his chances of having children that get good grades in school. The person that taught me about it has a PhD and teaches in a medical school. He also taught me about frame shifting. But that is a bit advanced for people that are still learning the basics.

I can go into a long discussion about this if you want. For example look at downs syndrome. The medical profession recommends that you abort a downs syndrome baby. This is selective breeding. Perhaps you have heard the term planed parenthood and Eugenics.

Eugenics is a social movement based on the belief that the genetic quality of the human race can be improved by the use of selective breeding, as well as other often morally criticized means to eliminate groups of people considered genetically inferior, while encouraging the growth of groups judged to be genetically superior 1. It aims to reduce human suffering by “breeding out” disease, disabilities, and so-called undesirable characteristics from the human population 2. However, eugenics has a dark history, and its implementation has often led to discriminatory practices and ethical dilemmas.

Like everything else I could easily write a book on this (seed bearing plants). Genesis gives us very few words to deal with but they have profound implications and meanings. The word KIND is used quite a bit in Genesis chapter one so we should pay special attention to when a word is used many times in the Bible. So if you want to know about kinds and seed bearing plants evolution can teach you about that.

 

[Diamond7]

As long as " Theistic Evolution " does not cross the line of " kinds" then I don't think it would be dishonorable. Blessings.

Yes I understand that. This is the difference between micro and macro. Even the most hard core anti evolution people will reject macro but accept micro evolution or change within a kind.

 

[Diamond7]

'intelligent design'.

• One example often cited is the bacterial flagellum. It’s a whip-like structure used for movement.
• The flagellum requires multiple components (motor, rotor, stator, filament) to function.
• Critics of evolution argue that such complex structures couldn’t have evolved gradually because intermediate stages would lack functionality.

Michael Behe was not able to prove himself in court.

Michael Behe, an American biochemist and advocate of the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design (ID), has testified in several court cases related to intelligent design. Notably, he was the lead witness for the defense in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case. Here are the key points:

1. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005):
   • In this landmark case, the Dover Area School District in Pennsylvania attempted to introduce intelligent design into its science curriculum alongside evolution.
   • Behe testified as an expert witness for the defense, advocating for the validity of the argument for irreducible complexity (IC).
   • The court ruled that intelligent design is not science and is religious in nature. Behe’s views were cited in the ruling against the inclusion of intelligent design in public school science classes.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:

Do I need to "claim to have all wisdom and knowledge" to read "Do not take God's name in vain"??

Then why do you do that.

I don't claim to have all wisdom - but I can freely read and accept "do not take God's name in vain"
seems pretty simple to me.
Where is the confusion?

God does not give us the ability to judge others.

God gives us the ability to read, to know what the Bible says, to know right from wrong and to freely state what we find in scripture.

Again - I don't see how this is the least bit confusing.

Your objection is not to anything I have said about any individual - rather you object to my knowing right from wrong. Knowing what the Bible says.

Moses wrote all of Genesis, not just chapter one.

Agreed.

Nothing I have said opposes that fact.

The garden of eden is what we call a biodiverse ecosystem.

Call it whatever you like --

But In Gen 1 - 2:4 and in Ex 20:8-11 God says He made all life on Earth in 6 literal days just like the 6 days of Sinai in Ex 20.
I can read that and accept it - no matter what name you choose to give to what the Bible calls the Garden of Eden

There are actually many Edens in the world. The Bible tells us that God created Adam from the dust of Eden and Science tells us where that dust comes from.

Scientists guess at a lot of things. Sometimes their guesses can be demonstrated as being correct when the reproduce some claim they make - in an actual test tube.

The point is that Jesus is the only way. I believe other religions have something to contribute but Jesus is the only way to God.

No doubt about that.

But the way we know about Jesus is that we read the Bible, we accept what it says EVEN THOUGH scientists can't reproduce the incarnation of God into human form, even though scientists can't reproduce the virgin birth, even though scientists can't get a dead person to raise himself up from the grave after being dead from friday to Sunday, even though scientists can't get a risen dead person to levitate himself up into the sky and rise up to heaven.

Even though science can't do any of that - we still believe the Word of God "anyway".

 

[BobRyan]

The point is that Jesus is the only way. I believe other religions have something to contribute but Jesus is the only way to God. I was seeking God and He showed me Jesus and Jesus showed me the Holy Spirit, then the Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus and Jesus showed me the way to God.

The apostle peter accepted Chris as Savior - before Christ went back to heaven.

Still - Peter got "corrected" in Gal 2.
And - Peter god "corrected" in Acts 10 - where it was revealed to him that he had bad theology when it comes to Gentiles and salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Michael Behe was not able to prove himself in court.

Michael Behe, an American biochemist and advocate of the pseudoscientific principle of intelligent design (ID), has testified in several court cases related to intelligent design. Notably, he was the lead witness for the defense in the Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District case. Here are the key points:

1. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (2005):
   • In this landmark case, the Dover Area School District in Pennsylvania attempted to introduce intelligent design into its science curriculum alongside evolution.
   • Behe testified as an expert witness for the defense, advocating for the validity of the argument for irreducible complexity (IC).
   • The court ruled that intelligent design is not science and is religious in nature. Behe’s views were cited in the ruling against the inclusion of intelligent design in public school science classes.

1. As it turns out - the judge in that case was NOT a scientist at all and would not know a scientific test for a science theory if it bit him. So no wonder some people ability to a non-science source to make a case about a science concept. Not really surprising,.
2. By contrast Behe earned a PhD in biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania in 1978 for his dissertation research on sickle-cell disease.

The idea that such a well informed biochemist knows nothing and we should instead trust a lawyer turned judge to know more science than Behe -- is not credible.

2. "The Court Ruled" is not a science test or principle in any science text known to mankind. I guess we all knew that.

The rank censorship endorsed by the pro-evolution group was to the effect that --students should not be allowed to KNOW about THE EXISTENCE of a book in the Library that offered an alternate explanation for the diversity of life - that differs from evol dogma as much as intelligent design does --

A four page statement was being proposed for an all-evol all-the-time biology course where students were to be informed that "A book exists in the library" on the topic of intelligent design and they were free to use their own time to go read such a book "in the library".

Hard left censorship groups were wildly indignant that students might be informed about the existence of such a book on biodiversity as part of science course on the topic of biodiversity where only thoughts about evolutionism were to be allowed..

===================================================

That level of censorship is hard to imagine in America outside of some extreme religious groups (I don't want to say Taliban ) -

 

[BobRyan]

Now the really sad part about all of this is that ID - Intelligent Design fails to reach the higher "minimum understanding" God declares that pagans and atheists have when it comes to nature, origins and diversity - as we see it in the text of Romans 1.

Admitting to intelligent design is a step just below being atheist in the Romans 1 context - because Romans 1 says even atheists know about the"invisible attributes of God - clearly seen in the things that have been made".

ID is then a sort of dumbed-down level of understanding about God from what Rom 1 says atheists and pagans have.

So to deny ID is to fail at level of understanding that Rom 1 says the most uninformed humans have. So clearly it is not a totally objective conclusion. Has to be some agenda to it.

Now I would not want to accuse anyone by name of wanting to go there - just that the Rom 1 facts put that idea wayyyy down the list.

 

[Diamond7]

2. "The Court Ruled" is not a science test or principle in any science text known to mankind. I guess we all knew that.

Are you trying to say that science can not stand up in a court of law? You do not have much faith in the legal system.

Most people believe that Behe did a poor job of what he was trying to do. He failed to present his case.

 

[Diamond7]

Peter god "corrected" in Acts 10 - where it was revealed to him that he had bad theology when it comes to Gentiles and salvation.

Jesus never told them that the gentiles could be saved. Jesus called them dogs. It was a big surprise to Peter.

 

[Diamond7]

Do I need to "claim to have all wisdom and knowledge" to read "Do not take God's name in vain"

I do not understand what your point is. You could not be accusing me because as a Christian we are not to accuse our brethren and it is a violation of the terms of service for this web site. We can only judge ourselves. So are you judging yourself?