Dr. Francis Collins and Theistic Evolution

[Jipsah]

They would absolutely lie, just as they lied about whether live animals were being sold at the market. However, they'd previously made public the viruses they were working on.

So of course they told the truth about that.

Right.

Since they had no way of knowing that this one would escape, they would have had no reason not to include it as well.

"yeah, we're doing GOF research on a corona virus fo the US government, but they won't mind us telling everyone about it."

Right.

That hardly settles the matter, but it does mean that we evidence for one lie and not for the other, so we should look at other evidence before leaping to conclusions.

The "evidence" coming from... the utterly unimpeachable CCP. Got it.

Generally, going by the actual evidence rather than what you imagine is a better route

Actual evidence being whatever the Chinese gummint says.

to sound conclusions. At this point, you're not using Occam's Razor: you're trying to argue away evidence that disagrees with your preferred conclusion.

And your "evidence" is based on your trust of CCP sources.

Right -- falling back on conspiracy theorizing

Nice try, but as you'll recall I suggested a far more prosaic source - the most powerful motivator for any government, government agency, or government employee - CYA. That's especially true in paces where talking out of school can get you imprisoned and/or shot. "Oops, we dropped the flask of virus, first priority is to cover it up as quickly as possible.

Technician Chan stands to become permanently missing if he makes his superiors look bad, so Tech Chan doesn't tell them if it's at all avoidable. No conspiracies necessary, just plain old human instincts for self preservation.


s just you applying Occam's Razor.

It still works. Bats? Seriously?

Besides being offensive

To whom?

, your response is also irrelevant: independent of what they say to the public, most people in the field (including me) have concluded that the weight of evidence strongly favors an origin in the market.

Except the ones that don't.

As far as I know, no bats were being sold at the market -

They were just kinda hanging out there, or what?

- the concern has always been about the sale of potential intermediate host animals that could carry coronaviruses, not with the sale of bats.

Sure, why not.

No, raccoon dogs, masked palm civets, Amur hedgehogs, Malayan porcupines, or hoary bamboo rats, all of which are known to have been present at that market. Probably others were there as well.

Were there any gerbils? I've always though they were suspicious.

 

[sfs]

So of course they told the truth about that.

"yeah, we're doing GOF research on a corona virus fo the US government, but they won't mind us telling everyone about it."

Right.

Adding sarcasm helps not at all, especially when you don't seem to have any knowledge of how the research world works. They weren't do any research for the US government -- they were doing research with government-funded US researchers. And yes, they absolutely would have published the viruses they were working on under those circumstances. We're talking about ordinary virological research here, not government bioweapons work.

Nice try, but as you'll recall I suggested a far more prosaic source - the most powerful motivator for any government, government agency, or government employee - CYA. That's especially true in paces where talking out of school can get you imprisoned and/or shot. "Oops, we dropped the flask of virus, first priority is to cover it up as quickly as possible.

I'm sorry, but you've confused yourself here. Your conspiracy theorizing was about epidemiologists who said they concluding they thought the evidence favored an origin in the market, but your suggestion was that they were only saying it because that was politically smart. I'm talking about Americans and other researchers around the world, not employees of any government, much less the Chinese government.

To whom?

To me. I'm one of the epidemiologists you think is lying for political convenience.

Except the ones that don't.

Except there don't seem to be very many of those.

They were just kinda hanging out there, or what?

No, as far as I know, there were no bats present in the market at all. In other words, why the heck are you going on about bats?

I know it's asking a lot, but before you start impugning the character of people you don't know, you could at least learn a little about the question at hand.

 

[Diamond7]

they absolutely would have published the viruses they were working on under those circumstances.

The ones that were against the research? That called for a ban and Collins thought he knew more about it than the experts do. Like I said, it has payola written all over it. We pay 3 million dollars for China to develop a literal weapon of war to use against is. Then they laugh at how stupid they think we are. The copper mines where they got the virus from those bats were used to make weapons back in the bronze age.