Only Three Are Tormented Eternally

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Jeremiah 7:31 clearly shows that the idea of God burning his children in a fiery lake, is really a lie from Satan.
The Bible clearly states that the lake of fire is used as a symbol for the second death. Revelation 1:1; Revelation 20:13, 14. Not a literal lake of fire.

The lake of fire is literal. The verses that you posted do not show the lake of fire is symbolic.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

"Mom, why is father torturing us every day?"

"Because he is angry at us that we are not perfect".

"Will it ever end?"

"No, dear, never."

Oh mine, really? This is your theology?

This is what the Bible teaches.

Find me a sermon that starts with 'God loves you'. Many times the prophet starts his speech with how God is angry at us for our sins. Zechariah 1 2 “The Lord was very angry with your fathers.

Wrath of God is mentioned far more than His love. You know why? Because God is angry at us sinners.
'God is an honest judge. He is angry with the wicked every day' Psalm 7:11

Psalm 5 5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Genesis 6 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But this does not get tought in most churches today, only cheap grace. 2 Timothy 4 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

 

[trophy33]

This is what the Bible teaches.

Find me a sermon that starts with 'God loves you'. Many times the prophet starts his speech with how God is angry at us for our sins. Zechariah 1 2 “The Lord was very angry with your fathers.

Wrath of God is mentioned far more than His love. You know why? Because God is angry at us sinners.
'God is an honest judge. He is angry with the wicked every day' Psalm 7:11

Psalm 5 5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Genesis 6 5 The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

But this does not get tought in most churches today, only cheap grace. 2 Timothy 4 3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions,

"Because He is angry" is really no moral justification for literal eternal torture. Do you have a better explanation or reasoning for it? Sadism or hatred is not a good one, because God is love.

 

[trophy33]

This is what the Bible teaches.

I have heard this claim about many absurd things. Bible is being read and understood in thousands of ways.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I'll stick with Jesus' POV on this one.
It is written..."Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25:45-46)

Everyone who is saved thinks they are only a sheep when any casual glance will yield the fact that exactly zero saved people always and only do sheep works and do in fact also do goat works.

Basic lesson here is that we all remain sinners after salvation no matter how hard we try to prove otherwise.

Jesus could look at any of us and speak to the tempter, the deceiver, just as He did with Peter because we are all engaged in a wrestling match, a battle with a real enemy and that battle is internal, just as the warrior equipment is internal, Eph. 6:11

 

[David Lamb]

It is important for everyone to understand the error of this statement.
John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Those not found in the Lamb's Book of Life suffer the second death not because of sin, but unbelief.

But unbelief is a sin. Think of the first sin in the Garden of Eden. The devil, in the form of the serpent, cast doubt into Eve's mind: ""Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?" (Genesis 3:1). The serpent went on to say:

“Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.” (Ge 3:4 NKJV)

Eve believed him, and in doing so, did not believe God.

 

[JulieB67]

I'll stick with Jesus' POV on this one

Christ calls the Lake of Fire the Second Death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell. Which also coincides with the teachings in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up, leaving neither root or branch.

Everlasting, means eternal to me.

Everlasting destruction.

If God has no pleasure that the wicked should perish (which is why he is so long suffering) why would he have pleasure in seeing them tormented forever? That makes no sense. Throughout the entire Bible it's always been a matter of life or death. The wages of sin is death period.

But believe what you will....

 

[Mr. M]

Think of the first sin in the Garden of Eden.

Okay. I am familiar with that story, and I am quite certain the sin was disobedience. Adam did not have unbelief about who the Lord was, and hid the next time he came because he knew he was naked and had some something wrong, although I am not sure what the words "you will surely die" meant to him.
Clearly the unbelief I spoke of, as I quoted John 3:18 is rejecting Yeshua as God's Anointed Savior and the Son of God.

 

[CoreyD]

The lake of fire is literal. The verses that you posted do not show the lake of fire is symbolic.

Let's take a look.
You correct me where I get these wrong.

Revelation 1:20
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.
The angel explains the symbolism of the seven stars. The seven stars symbolize the seven angels, and the seven lampstands symbolize the seven churches.



Revelation 4:5
Before the throne burned seven torches of fire. These are the seven spirits of God.
The angel explains the symbolism of the seven torches of fire. The torches of fire symbolizes the seven spirits of God.



Revelation 6:5
I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders, a Lamb standing as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God having been sent out into all the earth.
The angel explains the symbolism of the seven horns and seven eyes. These symbolize the seven spirits of God.



Revelation 6:8
And when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls being full of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.
The angel explains the symbolism of the incenses. The incense symbolize the prayers of the saints.



Revelation 17:9
9 This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings.
The angel explains the symbolism of the seven heads. The seven heads symbolize seven mountains, which are really symbolic of seven kings.



Revelation 17:12
The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom
The angel explains the symbolism of the ten horns. The ten horns symbolize ten kings.



Revelation 17:15
And he says to me, "The waters that you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.
The angel explains the symbolism of the waters. The waters symbolize peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.



Revelation 17:18
And the woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”
The angel explains the symbolism of the woman. She - the woman symbolize peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.



Revelation 20:14
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The angel explains the symbolism of the lake of fire. The lake of fire symbolizes the second death.



Here we see, in harmony with the words of John, in Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan, the angel uses symbolism, or signs (to signify) to convey the message, and along the way, the angel explains some of the symbolism.
The same Greek word is used in all the places you see red.

If you remove any one of those ticks... Just one, you remove all, and in so doing, you would

1. contradict the angel
2. discard the angel's interpretation, in favor of your own
3. take every symbol used as literal... from the lampstands, to the horns, the beast, and the woman and the waters she sits on.

If anyone does that, I would say to them, 'go ahead if that is your desire... make the lake of fire literal, and ignore everything else. However, bear in mind what you are actually doing, and the consequences that will follow.'

Signified
Usage: The Greek verb "sémainó" is used to convey the act of indicating or making something known, often through signs or symbols. In the New Testament, it is frequently used in contexts where a deeper or hidden meaning is revealed, often through divine or prophetic communication. It implies a form of communication that goes beyond mere words, often involving symbolic or metaphorical language.

 

[CoreyD]

Christ calls the Lake of Fire the Second Death. Which coincides with his teaching in Matthew 10:28 that we are to fear the one that can destroy (fully in the Greek) both body and soul in hell. Which also coincides with the teachings in Malachi that the wicked will be burned up, leaving neither root or branch.

Everlasting destruction.

If God has no pleasure that the wicked should perish (which is why he is so long suffering) why would he have pleasure in seeing them tormented forever? That makes no sense. Throughout the entire Bible it's always been a matter of life or death. The wages of sin is death period.

But believe what you will....

Well said Julie. Thank you.

 

[Mr. M]

Eve believed him, and in doing so, did not believe God.

Eve was not even created when God gave Adam the instructions. She would have been instructed by Adam. The serpent was subtle, because he waited until Eve was alone. This is why Paul states that "the woman 'being deceived' was in the transgression.
But when comparing the sin of man he says "they did not sin after the similitude of Adam's transgression", who actually received the commandment, and relayed the instructions incorrectly. Eve said, "God said you shall not eat, or even touch, lest you die."
Not what God said, so where did Eve get those instructions?
Kind of a Sunday school version for children of the Adam and Eve story, keeping them side by side, when God gave the instructions and Eve was still a rib, and side by side in the temptation which they were not. Hopefully we have cleared up some things concerning disobedience and unbelief. I have been disobedient to some extent in my walk with the Lord, but never have I fallen into unbelief!
In the OT, sin is disobedience to a command prohibition. In the NT, it is failure to act when the Lord, the Holy Spirit, presents us the opportunity to serve Him in goodness, and instead we refrain.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knows to do good, and does not, to him it is sin.

Not the definition they give in Sunday school.

Thanks for challenging me with your post this morning David.
Gave me a quick "devotional" to share, while placing old Adam and Eve stories under a microscope.

 

[Mr. M]

Here we see, in harmony with the words of John, in Revelation 1:1 - The Revelation of Yeshua The Messiah, which God gave to him, to show his Servants what had been given to soon occur, and he symbolized it when he sent by his Angel to his Servant Yohannan, the angel uses symbolism, or signs (to signify) to convey the message, and along the way, the angel explains some of the symbolism.

Okay, so that is where the belief in "symbolism" comes from! Not even.
"He signified (semaino)", which means explains the significance.
Acts 25:27 “For it seems to me unreasonable to send a prisoner and not to specify (semaino) the charges against him.”

The lake of fire has an OT type, and it is not 'a symbol'. It is a cremation pyre.

Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet was established of old,
Yes, for the king it is prepared.
He has made it deep and large;
Its pyre is fire with much wood;
The breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone,
Kindles it.

Many of the children of Israel will pass through this fire, even as they passed through water coming out of Egypt.
Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

The huge oil deposits in NW Iraq, which is a part of ancient Assyria, would meet the need. This region is controlled by the Kurds, who are our allies in the present war. There may be petroleum deposits in Israel yet to be discovered. The 1/3 who are refined by fire are said to not depart the land.
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ”

Fire is definitely NOT symbolic of judgment. It IS judgment.

Isaiah 66:
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

 

[CoreyD]

Okay, so that is where the belief in "symbolism" comes from! Not even.
"He signified (semaino)", which means explains the significance.
Acts 25:27 “For it seems to me unreasonable to send a prisoner and not to specify (semaino) the charges against him.”

The lake of fire has an OT type, and it is not 'a symbol'. It is a cremation pyre.

Isaiah 30:33 For Tophet was established of old,
Yes, for the king it is prepared.
He has made it deep and large;
Its pyre is fire with much wood;
The breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone,
Kindles it.

Many of the children of Israel will pass through this fire, even as they passed through water coming out of Egypt.
Isaiah 11:16 And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

The huge oil deposits in NW Iraq, which is a part of ancient Assyria, would meet the need. This region is controlled by the Kurds, who are our allies in the present war. There may be petroleum deposits in Israel yet to be discovered. The 1/3 who are refined by fire are said to not depart the land.
Zechariah 13:8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one-third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ”

Fire is definitely NOT symbolic of judgment. It IS judgment.

Isaiah 66:
15 For behold, the Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by His sword
The Lord will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the Lord shall be many.

You have removed ἐστιν from Revelation 20:14 then, and kept it in all the previous verses.
Please explain why.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Jesus died so we could be reconciled during THIS life.
To pretend there is some back-door out of damnation, is wickedness itself.
Jesus has given us all we require to serve Him, and His Father, perfectly here and now.

Could you please show me the scripture that says reconciliation can only happen while in the mortal body. I can find none, but there are examples of it happening in scripture.

 

[Mr. M]

You have removed ἐστιν from Revelation 20:14 then, and kept is in all the previous verses.
Please explain why.

You're going to have to quote me on that. I see no reference to Rev 20:14 in the post you quoted.
I have not removed anything willfully. Show me where I did and I will consider your request.
Hardly a response on your part to anything I laid out in the post you just quoted.
Feels like a dodge.

 

[Mr. M]

Could you please show me the scripture that says reconciliation can only happen while in the mortal body. I can find none, but there are examples of it happening in scripture.

The scriptures you quoted on reconciliation is the mandate of the Church NOW. You are taking liberties to apply it post judgment. But that has never stopped anyone in the UR camp.
2 Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
(are you making this optional?)
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
The idea that every person ever born is entitled to eternal life is a myth. There is no such birthright. They must be born again, while alive. UR is a carnal doctrine of "sympathy for the flesh, and the devil", who will actually be tormented.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
The rebellious are not in Christ, and you cannot take Paul's doctrines of Christ for THE SAINTS, and apply them to the lost willy nilly. In other words, our efforts are in vain, because the Lord provides the ultimate reconciliation in the lake of fire? Wow!
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Only the Saints who accept God's Grace in this life are reconciled to God and serve in the ministry of reconciliation. You are looking for reconciliation at the judgment, where there is none.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This is our message, to accept Christ, to be reconciled to God, and have your trespasses forgiven. At the judgment, sin is clearly reckoned upon and punished eternally, not reconciled in disobedience.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

We implore, we beg, we plead: be reconciled to God! To what end? Is our failure to be judged? Were we supposed to reconcile the world, or just keep busy?

 

[CoreyD]

You're going to have to quote me on that. I see no reference to Rev 20:14 in the post you quoted.
I have not removed anything willfully. Show me where I did and I will consider your request.
Hardly a response on your part to anything I laid out in the post you just quoted.
Feels like a dodge.

It's in the post you quote. I thought you were responding to that post.
You said, The lake of fire has an OT type, and it is not 'a symbol'.
Were you just saying what you believe, and not addressing my post then... sort of a speaking to yourself, while quoting me?

I said in my post, if you remove any of the ticks following the scripture and its associate comment... which you did, with your statement, then you have removed all, making every verse with its explanation and tick, literal.
You'll have to look at the post again, because I would have to repeat basically everything I have said.

Let me try this.
ἐστιν is used in every verse in my post.
If you make any one of the objects preceding ἐστιν literal, then you need to explain why you did that.
For example... The dragon ἐστιν the dog.
If you say the dragon is literal, and not used as a symbol, or representation of the dog, you have removed ἐστιν.
Does that help?

So, I'm asking why you removed ἐστιν.
If you have not, how can you arrive at the sign preceding it being literal?

I actually thought you were the one deflecting from addressing what I actually posted... Sort of like when people talk past an individual, and I really did not want to get into an argument, but rather let persons deal with the scriptures.
However, I'll address what you said, anyway, and see that go as I expect.

You said... "He signified (semaino)", which means explains the significance.
However the Greek word does not mean explain the significance. If you find a source supporting that, please provide it here.

The Greek word sémainó, means... To signify, to indicate, or to make known
It comes from the Greek word σῆμα (sēma), meaning "a sign" or "a mark." See Word Origin

Usage: The Greek verb "sémainó" is used to convey the act of indicating or making something known, often through signs or symbols. In the New Testament, it is frequently used in contexts where a deeper or hidden meaning is revealed, often through divine or prophetic communication. It implies a form of communication that goes beyond mere words, often involving symbolic or metaphorical language.

So, rather than the word meaning, explain a sign, it means to explain by signs.
We have related text that use this word in that way.
John 12:33

Now He was saying this, signifying by what death He was about to die.​

What Jesus said - when I am lifted up from the earth - was a symbol, or sign, representing how he would die. John 12:32

The sign or symbolism, is followed by the explanation in terms that can be understood.
So, in the same way, as Jesus did, the angel gave the sign, as in my post, I referred to those places, where he explained the sign, in terms that could be understood.
The message however, that John received was given in signs, or symbolism - explained by signs.

The other related texts are John 18:31, 32; John 21:18, 19; Acts 11:28; Acts 25:27; Revelation 1:1
This is a Greek word. Rather than a Hebrew ("OT") word.

The "OT" references you used do not relate to the lake of fire.
There are scripture people look for to support their belief about literal fire.

 

[Mr. M]

It's in the post you quote. I thought you were responding to that post.
You said, The lake of fire has an OT type, and it is not 'a symbol'.
Were you just saying what you believe, and not addressing my post then... sort of a speaking to yourself, while quoting me?

I do not know what you are referring to, could you provide the post# in the right hand corner?

I said in my post, if you remove any of the ticks following the scripture and its associate comment... which you did, with your statement, then you have removed all, making every verse with its explanation and tick, literal.
You'll have to look at the post again, because I would have to repeat basically everything I have said.

I do not accept your position I have to "address every tick" as literal. You are not the rule maker here. I only addressed the lake of fire as literal as that is the topic.

You said... "He signified (semaino)", which means explains the significance.
However the Greek word does not mean explain the significance. If you find a source supporting that, please provide it here.

The Greek word sémainó, means... To signify, to indicate, or to make known
It comes from the Greek word σῆμα (sēma), meaning "a sign" or "a mark." See Word Origin

Usage: The Greek verb "sémainó" is used to convey the act of indicating or making something known, often through signs or symbols. In the New Testament, it is frequently used in contexts where a deeper or hidden meaning is revealed, often through divine or prophetic communication. It implies a form of communication that goes beyond mere words, often involving symbolic or metaphorical language.

I already studied the word, and provided a scripture to illustrate from Acts. You are the one not addressing my post.

"He signified (semaino)", which means explains the significance.
Acts 25:27 “For it seems to me unreasonable to send a prisoner and not to specify (semaino) the charges against him.”

Let me try this.
ἐστιν is used in every verse in my post.
If you make any one of the objects preceding ἐστιν literal, then you need to explain why you did that.
For example... The dragon ἐστιν the dog.
If you say the dragon is literal, and not used as a symbol, or representation of the dog, you have removed ἐστιν.
Does that help?

I removed nothing. I show that fire in judgment is not symbolic. It IS judgment.
Again, you are trying to be a rule maker without justification.

The other related texts are John 18:31, 32; John 21:18, 19; Acts 11:28; Acts 25:27; Revelation 1:1
This is a Greek word. Rather than a Hebrew ("OT") word.

The "OT" references you used do not relate to the lake of fire.
There are scripture people look for to support their belief about literal fire.

None of the NT scriptures you cited pertain the the lake of fire. The topic. You are trying to establish a doctrine with Greek semantics. The OT references are clear indicators of literal fire in judgment. Did the Prophets speak in riddles? The Prophets are a part of the foundation of our faith and we use OT references to understand Revelation throughout. What are you trying to prove, that the lake of fire is symbolic, right? Then why are Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet in torment? Fiery torment.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

The scriptures you quoted on reconciliation is the mandate of the Church NOW. You are taking liberties to apply it post judgment. But that has never stopped anyone in the UR camp.
2 Corinthians 5:
14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;
15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
(are you making this optional?)
16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
The idea that every person ever born is entitled to eternal life is a myth. There is no such birthright. They must be born again, while alive. UR is a carnal doctrine of "sympathy for the flesh, and the devil", who will actually be tormented.
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
The rebellious are not in Christ, and you cannot take Paul's doctrines of Christ for THE SAINTS, and apply them to the lost willy nilly. In other words, our efforts are in vain, because the Lord provides the ultimate reconciliation in the lake of fire? Wow!
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
Only the Saints who accept God's Grace in this life are reconciled to God and serve in the ministry of reconciliation. You are looking for reconciliation at the judgment, where there is none.
Matthew 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This is our message, to accept Christ, to be reconciled to God, and have your trespasses forgiven. At the judgment, sin is clearly reckoned upon and punished eternally, not reconciled in disobedience.

20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

We implore, we beg, we plead: be reconciled to God! To what end? Is our failure to be judged? Were we supposed to reconcile the world, or just keep busy?

First let me say that there is to much division in the Church and I do not want to add to it, so I will not break fellowship over things that we don't always agree on. For me all scripture must be interpreted through Gods character and nature and that is love, life and light in whom there is no darkness, this was demonstrated for us by Jesus, who is the exact representation of the Father.
I believe the telos of scripture to be 1 Cor 15:28" God will be all in all" not all in some and others annihilated or put in a corner of never ending torcher. 1 Tim 2:3-6 says its" Gods will or desire that all men to be saved " does God all he desires ? YES if not he is not God.
John 12:32 " and I, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw( helko- to draw or drag - like a net drags in fish) all people to myself.
1 Tim 4:9-11 " because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe"
John 12:47" Jesus came to save the cosmos not to judge it" and he did not fail in that mission.
Phil 2:10-11 " Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess ( exomologeo- to acknowledge, openly and joyfully, to celebrate, to give praise to without reservations) that Jesus is Lord.
I like to work backwards, if this is what God wants he will get it, so when I read scripture the verses that may seem to be in conflict take a back seat to Gods telos. I read scripture through the lense of Christian Universal Redemption, we all have a lense this is mine.
I use a literal translation of the New Testament and the Greek words are properly translated as opposed the the English. For example Mat 25:46 in English you get" everlasting punishment" in Greek its kolasis aionion - kolasis originally meant pruning or docking to make plants fruit better, cutting away that which is holding the plant from being all it could be. aionion does not mean eternal but pertaining to the age or age abiding, it has a beginning and an end.
I see the offer we have been given from God is are you going to be reconciled while in the mortal body or not, if yes then you must die to self and pick up your cross daily and follow Jesus now. Those who will do so are keeping their birthright and they become one with Jesus and will rule and reign with him in his kingdom. Those who reject Jesus and live for self, they go to the Lake of Fire, the second death, the death of the soul but not the spirit, they then have given up their inheritance and become subjects of that kingdom.
This all takes place over the ages, God is building a kingdom but it takes form through ages, we are in the age of grace but more ages are to come. What a lot of the Church does is look at this age and we think that this is it , its now or never, but God doesn't work like that, he is still in creation mode and will be till " God will be all in all".

 

[CoreyD]

I do not know what you are referring to, could you provide the post# in the right hand corner?

I do not accept your position I have to "address every tick" as literal. You are not the rule maker here. I only addressed the lake of fire as literal as that is the topic.

I already studied the word, and provided a scripture to illustrate from Acts. You are the one not addressing my post.


I removed nothing. I show that fire in judgment is not symbolic. It IS judgment.
Again, you are trying to be a rule maker without justification.

None of the NT scriptures you cited pertain the the lake of fire. The topic. You are trying to establish a doctrine with Greek semantics. The OT references are clear indicators of literal fire in judgment. Did the Prophets speak in riddles? The Prophets are a part of the foundation of our faith and we use OT references to understand Revelation throughout. What are you trying to prove, that the lake of fire is symbolic, right? Then why are Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet in torment? Fiery torment.

If the lake of fire is the topic you are addressing, may I ask why you quoted part of my post, and chose only that part, which had nothing to do with the lake of fire, directly, but was connected to the scriptures preceding it, and ignored the entire post that had everything to do with the lake of fire, including the preceding scripture?
I'm referring to post #49.

I'm not trying to make any rules here.