Why Everyone Needs An AR-15

[Aldebaran]

Fair enough. It's just that people sometimes carry 3-4 30 rounders and I guess I'm wondering what they expect to find that would need so much firepower. Still, I understand when law-abiding citizens would rather be safe than sorry so to speak. I just recognize that these heavily ammo'd up weapons are often stolen or sold on the black market to people who shouldn't have them.

That makes a good case for making theft (and especially theft of firearms) a more serious crime.

 

[JosephZ]

It is not about just mass shootings.

You're right. Look at the comment I made earlier showing how often AR-15s have been used in crimes in just the past two weeks. In making the list I specifically included crimes where an AR-15 was used since they are the weapon that's the subject of this thread. There were many other crimes during this same period where other types of assault style weapons were used that didn't make the list.

Speaking of 7eleven, this happened just this past Monday:

Manhunt Launched for Suspect Armed with AR-15 in 7/11 Store Robbery

View attachment 346721

Other crimes where an AR-15 was used in the past two weeks:

Glen Carbon man charged, pulled AR-15 on workers at neighbor's home
Resident describes active shooter incident in Marina del Rey as ‘terrifying’; man in custody: 50 Rounds Fired
Shots fired at Rockford rental, 4 guns recovered
Gunman shot by Portland police was high on meth, sent ‘weird’ messages to friend hours earlier
Minnetonka standoff: Body camera video shows shootout
Mass shooting in Chicago leaves girl dead, 10 other people injured in Back of the Yards
2 Charged After Wiley Street Shooting
Man points AR-15 at employees at 2 separate Waffle Houses, police say
Man Wields AR-15 in Road Rage Incident: Arrest and Weapon Cache Uncovered
Man who killed 2 law enforcement officers used rifle with illegal 40-round magazine, sheriff's office says
9 people shot, 2 dead during Orange Mound block party, police say
RIFLE AT THE MALL: Police say 14-year-old brought gun to Coastland Center: Police: The teen had a rifle and marijuana in his backpack
Man Suspected of Pointing Rifle at Motorist in Moreno Valley

 

[Studyman]

Fair enough. It's just that people sometimes carry 3-4 30 rounders and I guess I'm wondering what they expect to find that would need so much firepower. Still, I understand when law-abiding citizens would rather be safe than sorry so to speak. I just recognize that these heavily ammo'd up weapons are often stolen or sold on the black market to people who shouldn't have them.

Yes, like when Obama, Biden and Holder sold these same weapons to the Mexican Cartel by the thousands, and lost track of over 2000 of them. I wonder how many people were murdered, besides Brian Terry, on this scheme, "Fast of Furious" that they dreamed up to make it easier to pass gun ban legislation.

It's easy to bulldoze over defenseless people, that is why Progressives, the name the National Socialist party of Germany changed their name to, have always been against private gun ownership.

 

[dogs4thewin]

You're right. Look at the comment I made earlier showing how often AR-15s have been used in crimes in just the past two weeks. In making the list I specifically included crimes where an AR-15 was used since they are the weapon that's the subject of this thread. There were many other crimes during this same period where other types of assault style weapons were used that didn't make the list.

Again, if we are going by BODY count though it is not AR-15 that are the "problem".

Going back to my example does it make more sense to save 100 people today OR 1,000 people over the next year. If you are looking to appear to be saving more lives sure ban ARs and other high powered weapons, but I have a feeling most people would whether save more lives than mearly APPEAR to save more lives because we are less likely to hear about deaths with other guns ( particularly outside of our area ( whereever that may be.

 

[Studyman]

I once had a guy tell me regarding this same issue, "Didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek"? I guess if a criminal comes to my house to rape and kill one of my daughters, I'm obligated by Jesus to offer him the other daughter after he's done.

Somehow I don't believe that is what Jesus meant.

Perhaps that was a bit harsh @Hark. OK Studyman, calm down.

 

[dogs4thewin]

That makes a good case for making theft (and especially theft of firearms) a more serious crime.

that is really a catch-22 though because if you make simple theft a very serious crime ( particularly when it does not involve firearms you end up with many more non-violent offenders in prison/jail or at the very least on paper (parole or probation) when you do that that means that fewer resources prison beds, corrections officers, probation or parole officers are spread much thinner which in turn means less protection from the offenders that are more violent.

 

[Aldebaran]

that is really a catch-22 though because if you make simple theft a very serious crime ( particularly when it does not involve firearms you end up with many more non-violent offenders in prison/jail or at the very least on paper (parole or probation) when you do that that means that fewer resources prison beds, corrections officers, probation or parole officers are spread much thinner which in turn means less protection from the offenders that are more violent.

Theft of firearms (rather than simple theft of other things) a more serious offense would mean that those people could be locked away and not able to go on and commit a more violent crime with the stolen firearm they would possess. Laws have already been enacted where violent crimes committed with a gun is treated more seriously than a violent crime committed without one. The idea is to discourage illegal firearm use.

 

[HARK!]

You heard wrong. As of today below is the oath that is taken by all individuals entering the US military.

I, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.”

The wordings of the current oath of enlistment and oath for commissioned officers are as follows:

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

(Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

Oaths of Enlistment and Oaths of Office | U.S. Army Center of Military History

 

[dogs4thewin]

Theft of firearms (rather than simple theft of other things) a more serious offense would mean that those people could be locked away and not able to go on and commit a more violent crime with the stolen firearm they would possess. Laws have already been enacted where violent crimes committed with a gun is treated more seriously than a violent crime committed without one. The idea is to discourage illegal firearm use.

oh so you meant just make the theft of firearms more serious?

 

[HARK!]

No moving of goalposts

Yes moving the goalposts. At first is was an assertion about a majority of Americans; and then it shifted to a majority of a minority of Americans.

I also noticed that your biased source reference a single GOA poll from 2018; but it didn't link this archaic poll, let alone demonstrate how the questions were phrased, or even if it was a scientific poll.

Do you have anything reliable from modern History?

 

[Aldebaran]

oh so you meant just make the theft of firearms more serious?

Yep! I wouldn't suggest making the theft of a loaf of bread as serious a crime as stealing a Glock. Since one has far more potentially serious consequences than the other, it raises the seriousness of the crime, and therefore needs a stronger deterrent.

 

[JosephZ]

Again, if we are going by BODY count though it is not AR-15 that are the "problem".

I listed 14 crimes committed with AR-15s in the past two weeks that resulted in dozens of injuries and several deaths, including one child and two police officers. I probably missed several more when doing my search. The easy access of AR-15s and other assault style weapons along with high-capacity magazines is definitely a problem in the United States.

Going back to my example does it make more sense to save 100 people today OR 1,000 people over the next year. If you are looking to appear to be saving more lives sure ban ARs and other high powered weapons, but I have a feeling most people would whether save more lives than mearly APPEAR to save more lives because we are less likely to hear about deaths with other guns ( particularly outside of our area ( whereever that may be.

Every life is important. If banning AR-15s and high-capacity magazines saves just one, it's worth it. In reality though, it would save many. The thing is, the same people that want to see a ban on assault style weapons and high capacity magazines also want other gun control reform including things like universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers and sales at gun shows; requiring a multi-day waiting period on all gun purchases, requiring registration and a license for each gun that a person owns, having a minimum age limit of 21 to purchase a handgun and require a hunting license for purchases of rifles or shotguns by adults under 21 who are not in the military or law enforcement; and require training and a proficiency test for the type of gun being purchased. All of these policies need to be enacted, not just a ban on AR-15s and similar assault style weapons and high capacity magazines.

 

[HARK!]

I listed 14 crimes committed with AR-15s in the past two weeks that resulted in dozens of injuries and several deaths, including one child and two police officers.

Anecdotal evidence. How about some statistics? According to the FBI, you're still more like to get punched to death...well...I guess unless you're carrying an AR15.

 

[Aldebaran]

I listed 14 crimes committed with AR-15s in the past two weeks that resulted in dozens of injuries and several deaths, including one child and two police officers. I probably missed several more when doing my search. The easy access of AR-15s and other assault style weapons along with high-capacity magazines is definitely a problem in the United States.


Every life is important. If banning AR-15s and high-capacity magazines saves just one, it's worth it. In reality though, it would save many. The thing is, the same people that want to see a ban on assault style weapons and high capacity magazines also want other gun control reform including things like universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers and sales at gun shows; requiring a multi-day waiting period on all gun purchases, requiring registration and a license for each gun that a person owns, having a minimum age limit of 21 to purchase a handgun and require a hunting license for purchases of rifles or shotguns by adults under 21 who are not in the military or law enforcement; and require training and a proficiency test for the type of gun being purchased. All of these policies need to be enacted, not just a ban on AR-15s and similar assault style weapons and high capacity magazines.

That old "If it saves just one, it's worth it" argument falls apart when it's applied to things like this.
Ok, so suppose AR15s were suddenly banned, and all were even made to somehow disappear from public ownership. Then you could post an article with statistics showing how many people in a given time period died when a [ENTER FIREARM TYPE HERE] was used, along with how banning those would save lives and be worth it.
Heck, even banning all cars would save lives from automobile crash deaths, but we obviously need to look beyond lives lost when making these decisions.

 

[HARK!]

If banning AR-15s and high-capacity magazines saves just one, it's worth it.

Maybe Biden should take guns away from the military.

 

[dogs4thewin]

I listed 14 crimes committed with AR-15s in the past two weeks that resulted in dozens of injuries and several deaths, including one child and two police officers. I probably missed several more when doing my search. The easy access of AR-15s and other assault style weapons along with high-capacity magazines is definitely a problem in the United States.


Every life is important. If banning AR-15s and high-capacity magazines saves just one, it's worth it. In reality though, it would save many. The thing is, the same people that want to see a ban on assault style weapons and high capacity magazines also want other gun control reform including things like universal background checks on all gun purchases and transfers, including private transfers and sales at gun shows; requiring a multi-day waiting period on all gun purchases, requiring registration and a license for each gun that a person owns, having a minimum age limit of 21 to purchase a handgun and require a hunting license for purchases of rifles or shotguns by adults under 21 who are not in the military or law enforcement; and require training and a proficiency test for the type of gun being purchased. All of these policies need to be enacted, not just a ban on AR-15s and similar assault style weapons and high capacity magazines.

So if every life is important thenis it better to save 100 or 1000?

 

[JosephZ]

Yes moving the goalposts. At first is was an assertion about a majority of Americans; and then it shifted to a majority of a minority of Americans.

Below was my original statement.

Most Americans, including most veterans, support a ban on high-capacity magazines, but few if any of those same Americans would ever support abolishing all guns. If there was ever an attempt by the US government to ban all guns, the American people wouldn't allow it.

The above statements are true, and I provided links to support it.

Do you have anything reliable from modern History?

The study I linked to concerning veterans was completed in 2022. A Fox News poll in 2023 found that 61% of Americans support a ban on assault weapons. Another poll from 2023 found 65%.

 

[HARK!]

requiring registration and a license for each gun that a person owns

Do you know what a license is?

A legal permission given by a competent authority, such as a government or a business, allowing someone to carry out activities that would be illegal without this right

license Definition, Meaning & Usage | Justia Legal Dictionary

license - A legal permission given by a competent authority, such as a government or a business, allowing someone to carry out activities that would be illegal without this right

dictionary.justia.com

By that logic Liberals could be required a license to speak. That way if they speak against God given rights, some man claiming to have the authority of God can revoke their permission to speak.

 

[JosephZ]

So if every life is important thenis it better to save 100 or 1000?

A comprehensive approach to gun control has to be made, not just a ban on AR-15s and high-capacity magazines to save the most lives, but if a proposal was made just to ban AR-15s and similar style weapons, then of anyone wanting to save lives would take it. Saving some lives is better than saving none.

 

[ARBITER01]

Anecdotal evidence. How about some statistics? According to the FBI, you're still more like to get punched to death...well...I guess unless you're carrying an AR15.

I went another day without seeing anyone carrying an AR15 down the street.