As we have it today, could some of my brothers and sisters explain how the colection of letters/historical biographies/etc. we call the Bible came into being?
Neal
Neal
Where did the Bible come from?
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Catchup
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The Holy Spirit, the Third Person in the Trinity of God, wrote the Bible. (2 Peter 1:21).
By revealing to the different writers the words that they should write. He did that over about 1500-1700 years. Some of the inspired writers were Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and many others.
The Bible is the Book of books. It is God's love letter to you.
I have heard some Catholics claim that they gave us the Bible. Granted they did the work of organizing the Bible. But Is the Bible a product of any church OR is the "church" a product of the Bible? Since the Old Testament was in general use long before the church was established, the church could not possibly have given the Old Testament to the world. What about the New Testament, which records the history of the fulfillment of the Old Testament, gives the life of Christ and His disciples and relates the establishment of and the doctrines of the church? The church, that is, the body of Christ [EPH 1:22, 23], or household of faith [GAL 6:10], is the product of the Word of Godthe Bible [ROM 10:17]. If the church did not give the Bible to the world, then who did give us the Bible? The Bible, itself, answers this question when it says: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit [2PE 1:21] and further that, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God [2TI 3:16]. We see, therefore, that God, Himself, gave the Bible to the world. God used many people but the Bible is indeed... a gift from God.
LOVE
By revealing to the different writers the words that they should write. He did that over about 1500-1700 years. Some of the inspired writers were Moses, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and many others.
The Bible is the Book of books. It is God's love letter to you.
I have heard some Catholics claim that they gave us the Bible. Granted they did the work of organizing the Bible. But Is the Bible a product of any church OR is the "church" a product of the Bible? Since the Old Testament was in general use long before the church was established, the church could not possibly have given the Old Testament to the world. What about the New Testament, which records the history of the fulfillment of the Old Testament, gives the life of Christ and His disciples and relates the establishment of and the doctrines of the church? The church, that is, the body of Christ [EPH 1:22, 23], or household of faith [GAL 6:10], is the product of the Word of Godthe Bible [ROM 10:17]. If the church did not give the Bible to the world, then who did give us the Bible? The Bible, itself, answers this question when it says: For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit [2PE 1:21] and further that, All Scripture is given by inspiration of God [2TI 3:16]. We see, therefore, that God, Himself, gave the Bible to the world. God used many people but the Bible is indeed... a gift from God.
LOVE
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But the Church did give us the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided the various authors in their teaching, and that same Spirit, the true author, guided the Church to collect the true and inspired writings, or as you put it, to do the work.
The Word of God is Christ, and the Church, His Body, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth, is made up of us. Some of us are Shepards and some Sheep. The Bible is a book of the Church, the Church is not a product of the Bible. The Bible is but one half of the Deposit of Faith that Christ promised, as recorded in the Gospel of John. Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to "...stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. He never puts a limit on either. Neither will contradict the other, and neither can stand alone. The Church was established in Matthew 16, long before any of the New Testament was written.
Neal
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Defender of the Faith 777
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Yes, all true so far. From my best knowledge, which isn't much, this is how I understood it.
Thanks for bringing this up by the way, I've wanted to talk about this for a while. First there was the Old Testament. The Pentateuch, the Historical, the Poetic, and Prophetical books. This was translated into Greek into what we know as the Septuagint. Then the New Testament was written. The first book, James, was written in the mid 40's and so on. Compared to ancient standards, that is VERY GOOD time to write something after it happened. Alexander the Great's history was written 500 years after his death. And we consider it accurate for the most part. It was copied SO VERY WELL, better than anything ever written in history. From Greek, they were translated into Jerome's Latin Vulgate, then to English in the King James version, about the 16th century.
Interesting tidbit. Virgil's Aenied, considered the best recorded piece of literature handed down over time next to the Bible, has about 600 manuscripts in different languages. Guess how many there are in several languages in comparison for the Bible?
about 24,000!
Thanks for bringing this up by the way, I've wanted to talk about this for a while. First there was the Old Testament. The Pentateuch, the Historical, the Poetic, and Prophetical books. This was translated into Greek into what we know as the Septuagint. Then the New Testament was written. The first book, James, was written in the mid 40's and so on. Compared to ancient standards, that is VERY GOOD time to write something after it happened. Alexander the Great's history was written 500 years after his death. And we consider it accurate for the most part. It was copied SO VERY WELL, better than anything ever written in history. From Greek, they were translated into Jerome's Latin Vulgate, then to English in the King James version, about the 16th century.
Interesting tidbit. Virgil's Aenied, considered the best recorded piece of literature handed down over time next to the Bible, has about 600 manuscripts in different languages. Guess how many there are in several languages in comparison for the Bible?
about 24,000!
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Defender of the Faith 777
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It's no accident. Read the Case for Christ. I got everything I just posted from what I read just about yesterday believe it or not! I'm only on Chapter 3, still about evidence for the Bible.
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Catchup
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Who gave us the Church?
This reminds me of ...which came first the chicken or the egg.
But for this one I have an answer...God was first!
God gave us the Bible.
Good works that Christian do are from God. It is God working through you. Man should not take credit.
LOVE
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There is definately a Divine Plan being worked out throughout history. It all just fits, and without even a little part, it gets cloudier. God has been so good to us, much moreso than we ever deserved!
Neal
Neal
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stillsmallvoice
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Hi all!
We (orthodox Jews) believe that the 39 books of the Tanakh (what our Nazarene cousins call the "Old Testament" were authored as follows:
The 5 Books of the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) were dictated by God Himself to Moses.
Joshua wrote his own book.
Judges was written by Samuel.
I & II Samuel were written by Samuel, the prophets Nathan and Gad, and other prophets.
I & II Kings were written by several prophets & royal chroniclers.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi wrote their own books.
Psalms was written by King David, King Solomon, and others (Asaph, etc.).
Proverbs was written by King Solomon and others (Agur & Lemuel).
Job wrote his own book.
Song of Songs was written by King Solomon.
Ruth was written by Samuel.
Lamentations was written by Jeremiah.
Ecclesiates was written by King Solomon.
Esther was written by Esther & Mordecai.
Daniel, Ezra & Nehemiah wrote their own books.
I & I Chronicles were written by Ezra.
The order in which I listed the books is the order in which they appear in a Jewish Tanakh.
Be well!
ssv
We (orthodox Jews) believe that the 39 books of the Tanakh (what our Nazarene cousins call the "Old Testament" were authored as follows:
The 5 Books of the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuteronomy) were dictated by God Himself to Moses.
Joshua wrote his own book.
Judges was written by Samuel.
I & II Samuel were written by Samuel, the prophets Nathan and Gad, and other prophets.
I & II Kings were written by several prophets & royal chroniclers.
Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi wrote their own books.
Psalms was written by King David, King Solomon, and others (Asaph, etc.).
Proverbs was written by King Solomon and others (Agur & Lemuel).
Job wrote his own book.
Song of Songs was written by King Solomon.
Ruth was written by Samuel.
Lamentations was written by Jeremiah.
Ecclesiates was written by King Solomon.
Esther was written by Esther & Mordecai.
Daniel, Ezra & Nehemiah wrote their own books.
I & I Chronicles were written by Ezra.
The order in which I listed the books is the order in which they appear in a Jewish Tanakh.
Be well!
ssv
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I have never seen James called the first book of the Bible to be written. Usually it's one of the later books because he is specifically answering challenges of people who were misinterpreting Paul's scriptures. 125 CE is the latest date I've seen for it. I think I did see a pre-50 year given somewhere, but that was under the assumption that it was written by James the brother of Jesus.
1 Thessalonians has a date 45-75 or so and is the first of the NT writings.
-Chris
1 Thessalonians has a date 45-75 or so and is the first of the NT writings.
-Chris
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fragmentsofdreams
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stillsmallvoice
How do Orthodox Jews respond to theories that the Torah was written by four different authors (P, D, Y, & J)?
(Biblical scholars seem to like using letters for some reason )
How do Orthodox Jews respond to theories that the Torah was written by four different authors (P, D, Y, & J)?
(Biblical scholars seem to like using letters for some reason
)
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Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
stillsmallvoice
How do Orthodox Jews respond to theories that the Torah was written by four different authors (P, D, Y, & J)?
(Biblical scholars seem to like using letters for some reason
There's also "R" (redactor).
But you're right about the letters. For Matthew we have Q and M, and the various manuscripts are identified by P + a superscript number, or sometimes bizarre glyphs or other random letters.
-Chris
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stillsmallvoice
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Hi all!
Lessee here...
"How do Orthodox Jews respond to theories that the Torah was written by four different authors (P, D, Y, & J)?"
Well, to quote Col. Sherman T. Potter (c'mon, I can't be that old; someone must remember who he was!), "Horsehockey!"
That theory has more holes in it than a chunk of Swiss Cheese. It also assumes that the "Redactor" was a world-class idiot for putting together such an obvious forgery & that everyone up until the theorists came along was a galaxy-class idiot for believing that the Tanakh was actually divinely-inspired.
ssv
Lessee here...
"How do Orthodox Jews respond to theories that the Torah was written by four different authors (P, D, Y, & J)?"
Well, to quote Col. Sherman T. Potter (c'mon, I can't be that old; someone must remember who he was!), "Horsehockey!"
That theory has more holes in it than a chunk of Swiss Cheese. It also assumes that the "Redactor" was a world-class idiot for putting together such an obvious forgery & that everyone up until the theorists came along was a galaxy-class idiot for believing that the Tanakh was actually divinely-inspired.
ssv
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Just a couple of notes:
There is not one shred of evidence in the manuscripts to suggest JDEP for the Pentateuch nor Q, M, L or Ur-Markus for the New Testament. That ought to clarify some of the horsehockey behind the "redaction theories."
Regarding NT manuscripts
[For definition: a manuscript is a handwritten document, not printed. Thus, manuscripts are generally dated prior to 1550, which is about 100 years after the invention of the printing press, with most prior to 1400.]
Caesar's Gaullic Wars - only two manuscripts exist for this document, the closest being 900 years separated from the original.
New testament writings (27 individual writings) -
5,500 Greek manuscripts, dated from AD 125 to 1500, which means that at least one is within 25-75 years of writing (depending on the date given for John's Gospel)
30,000 translation manuscripts, in Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, etc.
1,000,000+ quotations from Church fathers
No other document in history comes close to such a massive amount of evidence.
And the amazing thing, is that when we examine all 5,500 Greek manuscripts and note any discrepancy between them, even down to one letter changes, the difference is less than 2% between all the manuscripts.
Now, keep in mind that these manuscripts come from 13 centuries, were discovered over many regions of the Mediterranean, were completed by many different groups, in many different circumstances, with different writing styles (some uncials - captials, some cursive, some scraped and used again - palimsests, etc.).
The evidence for the unchanging nature of the New Testament is phenomenal.
Old Testament, 22 documents in Hebrew, separated into 39 in the English translations.
Until 1946 the oldest complete Hebrew manuscript was Leningradis, dated in AD 1007. In addition there were several Aramaic translations (known as Targums), and Greek translations, the most commonly identified one is called Septuagint, abbreviated LXX. With the beginning of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946, manuscript evidence was pushed back another 1,000 years. The basic texts of the Old Testament had not changed, even with the addition of vowel pointing by the Masoretes in the 6-9th centuries, the consonant text was the same.
Again further proof of the unchanging nature of God's Word.
There is not one shred of evidence in the manuscripts to suggest JDEP for the Pentateuch nor Q, M, L or Ur-Markus for the New Testament. That ought to clarify some of the horsehockey behind the "redaction theories."
Regarding NT manuscripts
[For definition: a manuscript is a handwritten document, not printed. Thus, manuscripts are generally dated prior to 1550, which is about 100 years after the invention of the printing press, with most prior to 1400.]
Caesar's Gaullic Wars - only two manuscripts exist for this document, the closest being 900 years separated from the original.
New testament writings (27 individual writings) -
5,500 Greek manuscripts, dated from AD 125 to 1500, which means that at least one is within 25-75 years of writing (depending on the date given for John's Gospel)
30,000 translation manuscripts, in Latin, Coptic, Syriac, Ethiopic, etc.
1,000,000+ quotations from Church fathers
No other document in history comes close to such a massive amount of evidence.
And the amazing thing, is that when we examine all 5,500 Greek manuscripts and note any discrepancy between them, even down to one letter changes, the difference is less than 2% between all the manuscripts.
Now, keep in mind that these manuscripts come from 13 centuries, were discovered over many regions of the Mediterranean, were completed by many different groups, in many different circumstances, with different writing styles (some uncials - captials, some cursive, some scraped and used again - palimsests, etc.).
The evidence for the unchanging nature of the New Testament is phenomenal.
Old Testament, 22 documents in Hebrew, separated into 39 in the English translations.
Until 1946 the oldest complete Hebrew manuscript was Leningradis, dated in AD 1007. In addition there were several Aramaic translations (known as Targums), and Greek translations, the most commonly identified one is called Septuagint, abbreviated LXX. With the beginning of the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1946, manuscript evidence was pushed back another 1,000 years. The basic texts of the Old Testament had not changed, even with the addition of vowel pointing by the Masoretes in the 6-9th centuries, the consonant text was the same.
Again further proof of the unchanging nature of God's Word.
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