The real presence of the Lord, Jesus Christ, in holy communion.

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Good grief. If I had a nickel for every time someone claimed for themselves or their family that they were devout, active Catholics who at some point left His Church I could retire tomorrow. NO ONE, who is a devout practicing Catholic would ever leave His Church.
Then there is an ever shrinking number of devout Roman Catholics, because there Are many leaving.

btw, I didn’t leave His church, just the Roman Catholic. And it was the best thing I’ve ever done. My ministry wouldn’t be what it is today if I had stayed.

For what it’s worth, I am the pastor of a local church, and I travel internationally teaching theology. That would’ve never happened had I stayed.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Unconsecrated communion bread is called "the hosts" and unconsecrated communion wine is called "wine" or "communion wine". After consecration the wine is called "the precious blood" and the hosts are called "the body of Christ". Unused yet consecrated "hosts" are kept in the tabernacle and are consumed at the next mass.

Indeed. In East Orthodoxy before consecration the bread, once selected, is blessed, which can happen twice: at the Vespers the night before if there is a Litiya service, where the faithful bake Eucharistic bread, called prosphora, and the Priest selects five loaves (or seven in the Russian Old Rite), from which one will be consecrated, and the rest are blessed as antidoron (the blessed bread distributed to everyone after the liturgy in all Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches and the Church of the East, for sustenance on the journey home, back from when people had to walk, sometimes a great distance, to come to church; now it is a sacramental, like Holy Water, which we also do, but we do not have fonts at the entrances to the church, and also brushes are used in the Byzantine Rite to splash the people with it, rather than an aspergilium, whereas Coptic priests use their hands, and Syriac priests use soaked walnut leaves), and then at the liturgy of Preparation the selected piece of bread is further divided, with the main portion that will be consecrated and broken during the Anaphora (Eucharistic Prayer) being called the Lamb, rather than the host. The Byzantine Liturgy of Preparation, also known as the Prothesis or Proskomide, is quite elaborate, with the Armenian and West Syriac services being simpler, and the Coptic Orthodox preparation even more simple, but in all of them, one loaf of Prosphora is selected, and implements for cutting it such as the liturgical spear are used. Together with the blessed wine, which is put in a covered chalice, which will be uncovered during the Anaphora, the prosphora is put on a diskos (which means disk) which is like a paten, except it has a stem and base, like the chalice, with the celebrant carrying them by the stem, and during the Syriac Orthodox anaphora and those of several other Eastern liturgical rites, they are elevated, with the arms of the celebrating presbyer or bishop crossed, while he faces the altar, and this elevation is made possible by the stems of both the chalice and the diskos; it would be impossible with the paten used in Western churches.

Before the consecration, the Lamb and the blessed wine are referred to as the Offerings, and in the Byzantine Rite (Greek Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches) during the Great Entrance, the Offerings are brought from the Table of Preparations, out the Deacon’s Door, and through the Royal Doors*


*Actually the doors in the center of the Iconostasis are technically called the Holy Doors, with the doors opposite leading to the Narthex called the Royal Doors, but so many people call them the Royal Doors and do not use any special terminology for doors to the Narthex, particularly since the old regulations that limited use of the Royal Doors to the Czars of Bulgaria and Russia and the Voivoides and Kings of Romania and Greece are no longer in effect; due to a perverse set of circumstances there are no countries with an Orthodox monarchy, although Prince Philip, the Duke of Edinburgh, memory eternal, was baptized Orthodox and his mother became an Orthodox nun, and King Charles donated large sums of money to Mount Athos to pay for restoration works, and Orthodox icons have been installed in Royal Peculiars such as Westminster Abbey (a Royal Peculiar is a church under the personal control of the Sovereign and not the usual diocesan structure, and they also include the Chapel Royal, the King’s Chapel of the Savoy, the Temple Church at the heart of two of the Inns of Court in the square mile of the City of London where the barristers work, and in many cases, live, and the churches inside the Tower of London complex, and a few other churches throughout the country. They do not include the Presbyterian chapel at Balmoral where the royal family worships while vacationing in Scotland, which is under the control of the Church of Scotland, which in turn is the established church of Scotland, although recently some of its official status was stripped away, but the monarch is not considered its Supreme Governor, unlike the Church of England; all of this of course is a relic of the slightly awkward beginnings of the C of E but my appreciation for Anglicanism began when I realized what it had become, and also when I noticed that it accounted for a disproportionate number of converts to Orthodoxy and Catholicism, and furthermore ,that the Continuing Anglican and traditional High Church Anglican parishes are extremely close to Orthodoxy and also to Roman Catholicism; with Anglicans having sought repeatedly to enter into communion with the Orthodox, while also preserving many features of the traditional Roman Rite and also the four traditional Uses of England (of Sarum, York, Hereford and Durham, with the Sarum Rite being especially well preserved), for example, celebration ad orientem rather than versus populum. Indeed one of the best Traditional Latin Masses in the City of London can be found at the Anglican parish of St. Magnus the Martyr located in the City of London near St. Paul’s and the Thames.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Then there is an ever shrinking number of devout Roman Catholics, because there Are many leaving

That’s inaccurate. The Traditional Latin Mass communities are actually growing, and growing fast. Much of this growth is due to higher reproductive rates. This is also true of the Eastern Catholic churches. Now, Pope Francis has endangered this with Traditiones Custodes and Fiducia Supplicans, but many TLM Catholics have taken the view that his remaining tenure will be brief, and in the interim in those places where the Traditional Latin Mass in all of its beauty has become unavailable due to hostile bishops, are pressuring those bishops to reform the Novus Ordo Missae to eliminate liturgical abuses such as clown masses.

The losses are primarily among marginal Catholics, liberal Catholics and “Cafeteria Catholics”, although Pope Francis did cause some traditional Roman Catholics who were quite devout to join the Orthodox church. However, the Roman Catholic Church remains the largest in the world and the contraction it is experiencing is at a much lower rate than that affecting the mainline churches, where the rate of contraction in the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church and the United Church of Christ is tragic, and it looks like the PCUSA is about to experience another wave of contraction, having lost many parishes to eCo, and before that to the PCA and OPC; losses would have been higher except for the gracious nature in which Gracious Dismissal was handled, with the PCUSA actually seeking to persuade traditional parishes to remain out of their own free will rather than trying to force them, as we have seen in the UMC and ECUSA, with disastrous effects in both, however, there is a new generation of liberal clergy in the PCUSA who are apparently less tolerant, and are talking about forcing pastors and parishes to perform gay marriages if requested to do so, which is a more extreme position than that of any other mainline church in the US, indeed it is more liberal than the Unitarian Universalist Association or the United Church of Canada, and is on a par with the Metropolitan Community Church and the Union of Utrecht. This could potentially cause the PCUSA to lose the majority of its parishes, since more traditional parishes remained in the PCUSA than in most other mainline churches due to the efforts made to persuade them to remain voluntarily.

Also, the SBC, in seeking to enforce its position concerning the ordination of women, will likely lose a number of local churches, but I believe they would stand to lose more if they did nothing. The SBC has been shrinking in recent years, and my understanding is that this is due to the frustration of more conservative Baptists led by the most influential members of the denomination, such as Dr. Albert Mohler (who you might be surprised to know that I regard as the foremost moral theologian in Western Christianity at present, on a par with Orthodox moral theologians like Fr. Josiah Trenham of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America, Fr. John Whiteford of ROCOR, and Metropolitan Serapion of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles (the latter two I know personally, while I think I met Fr. Josiah once, but i am not sure; I have not met Dr. Mohler, but his work in moral theology is outstanding, and since the repose of Dr. James Kennedy in 2007, and Pope John Paul II in 2005, I can’t think of anyone in the Western church more qualified. Now, Dr. Mohler is an admirer of Zwingli, and I don’t know if his sacramental theology is Zwinglian or Memorialist or Calvinist; I also don’t really care, since it is his moral theology which I am attracted to, and in this respect I regard him as a modern day St. Alphonsus Ligouri. At any rate, I think the SBC will take a hit, but will then resume growth, as opposed to the current trend of gradual decline, which is something to be avoided. It is better to endure a one-time loss of members followed by a resumption of growth, rather than declining either in terms of total members or in terms of members as a percentage of the population.

Note that I am not saying that Fr. Josiah, Fr. John and Metropolitan Serapion are the only Orthodox theologians equivalent to Dr. Mohler, rather, they are three examples of Orthodox clergy in the United States whose work in the field of moral theology is exemplary. Fr. Josiah Trenham I like to a particularly large extent, in that he has ten children, and is very active in campaigning for human sexual morality and against abortion.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
The good thing is John 6 is not in the Lutheran confessions being the Eucharist. If it was... we would have a 400 year tradition of disagreements and countless divisions within Lutheranism.

I don’t see why. It seems like a petty reason for a schism, since it would have no impact on the actual doctrine of the church. Also passages of scripture can and often do have multiple meanings. Most church fathers did not adhere to either a strictly Antiochene literal-historical hermeneutic or a strictly Alexandrian typological-prophetic hermeneutic, and the two most prominent examples of those who did, Theodore of Mopsuestia in the case of the former and Origen Adimantius in the case of the latter, were both subseuqently anathematized. Rather, what we find in the Cappadocians, St. John Chrysostom, and most other Fathers, is a recognition that there is often both a literal-historical reading and a typological-prophetic reading, especially in the Old Testament, but also in the New Testament, which makes it clear this is the case in the Road to Emmaus pericope and the concluding pericope of the Gospel according to Luke.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Then there is an ever shrinking number of devout Roman Catholics, because there Are many leaving.

btw, I didn’t leave His church, just the Roman Catholic. And it was the best thing I’ve ever done. My ministry wouldn’t be what it is today if I had stayed.

For what it’s worth, I am the pastor of a local church, and I travel internationally teaching theology. That would’ve never happened had I stayed.

Just out of curiosity would you mind sharing with us what year was it when you left the RCC? I am curious because the RCC in the 1950s and 60s, the 1970s and 1990s had changed dramatically as a result of the influence of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That’s inaccurate. The Traditional Latin Mass communities are actually growing, and growing fast. Much of this growth is due to higher reproductive rates. This is also true of the Eastern Catholic churches. Now, Pope Francis has endangered this with Traditiones Custodes and Fiducia Supplicans, but many TLM Catholics have taken the view that his remaining tenure will be brief, and in the interim in those places where the Traditional Latin Mass in all of its beauty has become unavailable due to hostile bishops, are pressuring those bishops to reform the Novus Ordo Missae to eliminate liturgical abuses such as clown masses.

The losses are primarily among marginal Catholics, liberal Catholics and “Cafeteria Catholics”, although Pope Francis did cause some traditional Roman Catholics who were quite devout to join the Orthodox church. However, the Roman Catholic Church remains the largest in the world and the contraction it is experiencing is at a much lower rate than that affecting the mainline churches, where the rate of contraction in the Episcopal Church, the United Methodist Church and the United Church of Christ is tragic, and it looks like the PCUSA is about to experience another wave of contraction, having lost many parishes to eCo, and before that to the PCA and OPC; losses would have been higher except for the gracious nature in which Gracious Dismissal was handled, with the PCUSA actually seeking to persuade traditional parishes to remain out of their own free will rather than trying to force them, as we have seen in the UMC and ECUSA, with disastrous effects in both, however, there is a new generation of liberal clergy in the PCUSA who are apparently less tolerant, and are talking about forcing pastors and parishes to perform gay marriages if requested to do so, which is a more extreme position than that of any other mainline church in the US, indeed it is more liberal than the Unitarian Universalist Association or the United Church of Canada, and is on a par with the Metropolitan Community Church and the Union of Utrecht. This could potentially cause the PCUSA to lose the majority of its parishes, since more traditional parishes remained in the PCUSA than in most other mainline churches due to the efforts made to persuade them to remain voluntarily.

Also, the SBC, in seeking to enforce its position concerning the ordination of women, will likely lose a number of local churches, but I believe they would stand to lose more if they did nothing. The SBC has been shrinking in recent years, and my understanding is that this is due to the frustration of more conservative Baptists led by the most influential members of the denomination, such as Dr. Albert Mohler (who you might be surprised to know that I regard as the foremost moral theologian in Western Christianity at present, on a par with Orthodox moral theologians like Fr. Josiah Trenham of the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America, Fr. John Whiteford of ROCOR, and Metropolitan Serapion of the Coptic Orthodox Diocese of Los Angeles (the latter two I know personally, while I think I met Fr. Josiah once, but i am not sure; I have not met Dr. Mohler, but his work in moral theology is outstanding, and since the repose of Dr. James Kennedy in 2007, and Pope John Paul II in 2005, I can’t think of anyone in the Western church more qualified. Now, Dr. Mohler is an admirer of Zwingli, and I don’t know if his sacramental theology is Zwinglian or Memorialist or Calvinist; I also don’t really care, since it is his moral theology which I am attracted to, and in this respect I regard him as a modern day St. Alphonsus Ligouri. At any rate, I think the SBC will take a hit, but will then resume growth, as opposed to the current trend of gradual decline, which is something to be avoided. It is better to endure a one-time loss of members followed by a resumption of growth, rather than declining either in terms of total members or in terms of members as a percentage of the population.

Note that I am not saying that Fr. Josiah, Fr. John and Metropolitan Serapion are the only Orthodox theologians equivalent to Dr. Mohler, rather, they are three examples of Orthodox clergy in the United States whose work in the field of moral theology is exemplary. Fr. Josiah Trenham I like to a particularly large extent, in that he has ten children, and is very active in campaigning for human sexual morality and against abortion.



But, the Catholic Church, like most of organized religion in the United States is in trouble. I don’t think that the problem is as acute among Catholics as it is among other groups like mainline Protestants, but that doesn’t mean that the “check engine” light is not flashing on the dashboard right now for the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. The pews are emptying and the share of Catholics is beginning to show its first signs of real decline in the survey data.

When the General Social Survey started in the early 1970s, about 26% of American adults were Catholic. They stayed at that level for the next two decades before slow dipping down to 25% by the mid-1990s. Again, they plateaued there for a while, until the decline started again around the late 2000s. From 2010 to 2021, the Catholic share dropped from 25% to just about 21% in the GSS. Easily the lowest level reported in the survey.

For what it’s worth, the Cooperative Election Study pegs it even lower. They’ve never reported the numbers that appear in the GSS. The high water mark in the CES was 21.5% in 2008. From that point forward the slope of the decline is about the same as the GSS. Now, 17.5% of Americans are Catholic according to this survey. It’s probably fair to say that Catholics are in the high teens or very low twenties, right now, in terms of percentage.

But I wanted to focus this post more on geospatial analysis than anything else. Obviously the Catholic Church is seeing a different pattern of decline in a region like the Northeast compared to the Southwest. That’s driven by all kinds of factors, especially immigration (which is a topic I will return to at the end of this post.) So, I compared state level numbers of Catholics in the Cooperative Election Study in 2008 vs 2022.

National Catholic Reporter


The poll highlights the trend in declining church membership across the Catholic Church and Protestant denominations. However, Catholic membership is falling faster, according to poll results.

The poll's findings show that the number of Catholics belonging to a parish dropped from 76% in 2000 to 58% in 2020. Among Protestants, the membership decline in the same period was smaller — from 73% to 64%.

Gallup said it did not have enough data on other religious denominations to adequately analyze membership trends.

Manion noted that the poll showed the Catholic falloff in membership has accelerated since 2010, when 73% of Catholics said they still belonged to a parish.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Just out of curiosity would you mind sharing with us what year was it when you left the RCC? I am curious because the RCC in the 1950s and 60s, the 1970s and 1990s had changed dramatically as a result of the influence of Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II.
I left the Roman Catholic Church at 17, much to the chagrin of my father who was a former Seminarian at Mount Carmel. For his entire life he was involved, mass three times a week, part of the Diocanate, a leader in the Cursio movement and lay leader in his parish.

I walked away because of a variety of reasons, by the time I was 20 I was Agnostic at best.

Then October 14, 1985 changed my life forever. Because of a series of events, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My life changed in an instant. Te first place I went was to my fathers parish - but it was cold and lifeless - endless recitations - but no life (my opinion).

It was after trying to speak to two of the priest about this wonderful new life I was experiencing I realized the RCC was not a place I could find it. I attended a Sunday night service in an Assemblies of God church and it was exponentially different. That night I responded to the altar call (something I NEVER experienced in the RCC), I made my public profession of faith and was instantly filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. (Nothing I ever heard about or experienced in the RCC).

Three years later I find myself in Theological studies and six years later I completed my Masters degree. I have served as an Associate Pastor, Lead Pastor and am currently a Led Pastor and an adjunct professor of Theology in Central America, Europe and the Middle East.

In fact, as I write this it is 9:12am and I am in Riga, Latvia to teach.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
And before someone doubts what I say:

IMG_0370.jpeg

Look closely - that is the immigration stamp in my passport from yesterday in Helsinki - There is no stamp needed for entering Latvia.
 
Upvote 0

Valletta

Well-Known Member
Oct 10, 2020
8,540
3,222
Minnesota
✟218,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I left the Roman Catholic Church at 17, much to the chagrin of my father who was a former Seminarian at Mount Carmel. For his entire life he was involved, mass three times a week, part of the Diocanate, a leader in the Cursio movement and lay leader in his parish.

I walked away because of a variety of reasons, by the time I was 20 I was Agnostic at best.

Then October 14, 1985 changed my life forever. Because of a series of events, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. My life changed in an instant. Te first place I went was to my fathers parish - but it was cold and lifeless - endless recitations - but no life (my opinion).

It was after trying to speak to two of the priest about this wonderful new life I was experiencing I realized the RCC was not a place I could find it. I attended a Sunday night service in an Assemblies of God church and it was exponentially different. That night I responded to the altar call (something I NEVER experienced in the RCC), I made my public profession of faith and was instantly filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues. (Nothing I ever heard about or experienced in the RCC).

Three years later I find myself in Theological studies and six years later I completed my Masters degree. I have served as an Associate Pastor, Lead Pastor and am currently a Led Pastor and an adjunct professor of Theology in Central America, Europe and the Middle East.

In fact, as I write this it is 9:12am and I am in Riga, Latvia to teach.
It is acknowledged that there was a lack of teaching of the Catholic faith that began with the cultural movement in the 1960s. To many of the young what was going on during the mass was mere ritual, and many left because they did not understand. It's very interesting, Mother Angelica, who founded EWTN, experienced the speaking of tongues for herself.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It is acknowledged that there was a lack of teaching of the Catholic faith that began with the cultural movement in the 1960s. To many of the young what was going on during the mass was mere ritual, and many left because they did not understand. It's very interesting, Mother Angelica, who founded EWTN, experienced the speaking of tongues for herself.
The charismatic movement within the Catholic Church certainly helped in a number of different ways.

Tens of millions of born again Christians are spirit filled
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

MarkRohfrietsch

Unapologetic Apologist
Site Supporter
Dec 8, 2007
30,491
5,326
✟835,464.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
From what I gather from the LCMS and from my conversations, John 6 being Eucharist is not an issue. Some say it is, some say it isn't.

The good thing is John 6 is not in the Lutheran confessions being the Eucharist. If it was... we would have a 400 year tradition of disagreements and countless divisions within Lutheranism.

John 6 for me isn't a fruitful nor clear Scripture for developing an appropriate apologia for the real presence.

My grammar argument (although over the heads of many memorialists) is a very strong defense.

I think I am going to start working on I Cor 10 & 11 and demonstrate how Paul defends and promotes the Real Presence. Probably out in a week or two.
So true; and while maybe not talking directly about the Eucharist, it does point towards it. Very similar to Isaac and his son Jacob pointing towards the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross; Jacob doing his father's will, carrying the wood for his sacrifice just as Jesus carried the cross for his own execution.

We have lots of other stuff to cause divisions, all originating from applying higher criticism to Scripture; much the same way some in this thread have regarding the Eucharist.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
And before someone doubts what I say:

View attachment 346507
Look closely - that is the immigration stamp in my passport from yesterday in Helsinki - There is no stamp needed for entering Latvia.

That depends on where one enters it from. Finland and Latvia are part of the Schengen area. So if you travelled to Latvia from outside the Schengen area, from London, Turkey or Cyprus, you would be crossing the Schengen Area external border and would have to go through passport control, and fill out a landing card.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
5,188
1,401
Perth
✟129,431.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Then October 14, 1985 changed my life forever. Because of a series of events, I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.
That is an interesting turn of phrase. But it isn't within the scope of this thread's topic, which is the real presence of the Lord, Jesus Christ, in holy communion.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
11,391
5,800
49
The Wild West
✟486,475.00
Country
United States
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
That is an interesting turn of phrase. But it isn't within the scope of this thread's topic, which is the real presence of the Lord, Jesus Christ, in holy communion.

Indeed. Speaking of which, did you read the commentary by St. John Chrysostom, on John 6? St. Chrysostom if I recall is one of the Eastern Doctors along with St. Athanasius, St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory Nazianzus, and these four men are also the most important fourth century fathers for us (St. Basil, St. Gregory Nazianzus, and one of St. Basil’s younger brothers, St. Gregory of Nyssa, are venerated as the Cappadocian Fathers, and St. Basil and St. Gregory Nazianzus with St. John Chrysostom are commemorated on the Feast of the Three Holy Hierarchs, while St. Athanasius is in a class of his own. Also, all of the above either wrote a Eucharistic liturgy or are credited with one (the main Eucharistic Prayer of the Armenian Apostolic Church and the Armenian Catholic Church is an abbreviation of the Divine Liturgy of St. James psuepigraphically attributed to St. Athanasius, and the Ethiopians also have a liturgy attributed to him, as well as one attributed to St. Gregory of Nyssa, wheras the Copts have an Anaphora that is addressed to our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, rather than to God the Father, which is attributed to St. Gregory Nazianzus, which I recently had a discussion about with our pious Anglican friend @Andrewn.

Rather than continuing to debate the accuracy of the real presence, which is against your wishes as expressed in the OP, it might be interesting to compare the wording of these Eucharistic prayers and of the different versions of the Roman Canon and so on, specifically the Epiclesis and certain related prayers that express Eucharistic doctrine and are most likely to convey the idea of the Real Presence or in some liturgies of other models of Eucharistic theology. I have one book that specifically addresses the Epiclesis Prayers.
 
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is an interesting turn of phrase. But it isn't within the scope of this thread's topic, which is the real presence of the Lord, Jesus Christ, in holy communion.
I was answering a question from @The Liturgist. Sorry I followed them off topic.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That depends on where one enters it from. Finland and Latvia are part of the Schengen area. So if you travelled to Latvia from outside the Schengen area, from London, Turkey or Cyprus, you would be crossing the Schengen Area external border and would have to go through passport control, and fill out a landing card.
I would reply, but @Xeno.of.athens may take issue with it being off topic.

Have a great day!
 
Upvote 0

concretecamper

I stand with Candice.
Nov 23, 2013
6,815
2,584
PA
✟277,071.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

hislegacy

Memories pre 2021
Site Supporter
Nov 15, 2006
44,127
14,098
Broken Arrow, OK
✟712,047.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Aye, and that @Xeno.of.athens is so scary!
No actually I find the poster mature, kind and very welcoming and I want to display Christian attitudes by honoring his request to stay on topic.
Sorry to break it to you, yes you did

So you spreading a false gospel?
Reminds me of a joke I heard.

A Christian dies and goes to heaven and is greeted at the Pearly gate by Saint Peter. As they walk through heaven, they find different areas one room has all the Baptist and other assemblies of God another yet another denomination and then they see a closed room and St. Peter says be very quiet as we pass this room.

As he gets to the other side of the room, the person asks Saint Peter why did we have to be quiet? Peter replies well that is the Catholics room and they think they’re the only ones here.

I just want you to know that I don’t feel about you the way you feel about me, and I don’t regard your ministry as you regard mine. But I honestly love you with the love of Christ and I pray to God that he fills you with all the fullness of his knowledge and that you grow closer to him each and every day and that your church is blessed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

lastofall

Active Member
Aug 6, 2016
388
200
Germany
✟31,398.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
for me anyway, this is not a scholastically achieving undertaking, rather, it is in the simplicity that is in Christ, namely, we are most like the Lord when we are forgiving, and merciful, and caring for the welfare, the well being of others.
As it is written: If any man serve me, let him follow me, and where I am, therefore shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor.
The presence of the Lord Jesus Christ is where forgiveness, and mercy, and caring for others is; as for ceremonies, and rituals, and formalism; they are of none effect, except we are in our life making the sincere effort to follow Him.
 
Upvote 0