the myth of flat earth debunked again

[contratodo]

Not wrong but a different style of speaking, like poetry, epic story or even stories like Job or Jonah. No need to take it all literal. How does one decide literal from figurative? I think that is where one's church is helpful for leadership.

So in Joshua10:12-13 the account of the sun standing still and the moon stopping is an epic story or a true account?

What is it, a true story or just an "epic story" ?

And Job chapter 38, that is not an account of Gods actual words?

Therefore, anytime what the Bible says does not line up with modern "science" it is just poetry or an epic story?

How does the death and resurrection of Christ line up with modern "science" ?

 

[contratodo]

Going back to the stars,
if this is supposed to be the truth:

That we are orbiting around a sun that is traveling 448,000 mph through space.

Then throughout the generations of man, we should have been seeing the stars move, and different stars.
Polaris should have moved from where it is by now. It should not remain generally in the center through thousands of years.

Even ancient peoples tracked Aquarius and the other constellations in the same positions they are in today.

 

[Gene2memE]

Going back to the stars,
if this is supposed to be the truth:

View attachment 345672

That we are orbiting around a sun that is traveling 448,000 mph through space.

Then throughout the generations of man, we should have been seeing the stars move, and different stars.
Polaris should have moved from where it is by now. It should not remain generally in the center through thousands of years.

Even ancient peoples tracked Aquarius and the other constellations in the same positions they are in today.

Do you understand that our galaxy is moving (rotating) as well? Everything inside our galaxy, including the Sol system, is (mostly) moving in proportion to everything else.

So yes, aside from relative sizes of the planets & sun and the distances of orbits that picture is kinda, sorta accurate. But only if someone were in a completely stationary frame of reference (i.e. no motion relative to anything else).

But, everything in our galaxy is moving. So the observer would also be moving along also. So they'd see something different.

It's not the absolute speed that matters when thinking about these things, its the relative motions and velocities.

So, it doesn't really matter if earth is moving through space at 45 mph, 450,000 mph or 4.5 million mph**. If everything else is doing the same speeds, then the frame of reference is essentially static for everyone involved.


**4.5 million mph is getting up towards a single digit percentage of the speed of light. I'm not physicist, but there might be some relativistic and/or time dilation effects at these sorts of speeds? I know that flying some nuclear clocks around in commercial airliners was enough to produce some time dilation (but only in the nanoseconds range).

Einstein was right. Flying clocks around the world in opposite directions proved it.

Time isn't the same for everyone, even on Earth. Flying around the world gave Einstein the ultimate test. No one is immune from relativity.

bigthink.com

 

[contratodo]

So the observer would also be moving along also. So they'd see something different.

If the picture is accurate, Polaris should not be in the same general spot it has always been.

What would be said is that the sun is orbiting the center of the Milky Way Galaxy,
and they put for example, Sagittarius on the outer edge of the Milky Way,
but even still, as we move along, amongst other solar systems moving along in every direction,
throughout the ages there should have been at least positional changes to what we see in the night sky.

And there is no way to prove that the sun is orbiting anything,
and there is no way to prove the speed of the sun.

What is seen are stars that we and ancient peoples have tracked in the same positions,
showing us that the earth is not moving.

 

[contratodo]

Technically sunlight isn't parallel

commons . wikimedia . org/wiki/File:Sun_breaking_through_clouds_over_ocean.jpg


The sun is a local light in the sky, held up by perhaps electromagnetism.

In this thread I posted about the cardboard cloud experiment one can do to see the difference between light that is local
to light that is far away. Local light spreads out.

 

[contratodo]

So, it doesn't really matter if earth is moving through space at 45 mph, 450,000 mph or 4.5 million mph**. If everything else is doing the same speeds, then the frame of reference is essentially static for everyone involved.

Not the earth, the sun.
And every other solar system and star is moving at different speeds.

It is said to take 230 million years for the sun to complete its orbit of the milky way.

So using those numbers they would say the movements we would see would be small.
But after thousands of years, the buildings that ancient peoples made to line up with celestial events,
still line up with those stars.

And Polaris should have moved, some sort of movement over thousands of years should be seen.
Is the Andromida galaxy moving exactly with us?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

View attachment 345670


The horizon line we see anywhere, has to do with perspective.
The door at the end of the hall is not smaller than the door closest to us, even though it looks so.
Same for the lights and lockers.
What we see is due to perspective. This is true with the sun and moon also, as they travel far away from us.

Horizon.

View attachment 345671


Yes vanishing point, the same principle applies as we look at things outside.


As stated before, one could not look all the way to the other side of the Gotthard tunnel,
even though it is perfectly flat and level the whole entire way.
Your eye would only see so much, before the vanishing point.


View attachment 345675

Can anyone explain what they did to account for the "curvature" of the earth as they built the 35 mile long Gotthard tunnel?

Vanishing points are not horizons. They are vanishing points. A horizon is a clear, distinct and separate thing. If you think that a vanishing point proves your point, I'm sorry, but you're a nonce.

Using railway tunnels is not a good way to try and make your point since all railways, well, nearly all railways, follow the contours of the land when they're laid. Tunnels follow the same principal, just underground since some rock is easier to drill through while others are not.

 

[sjastro]

Not the earth, the sun.
And every other solar system and star is moving at different speeds.

It is said to take 230 million years for the sun to complete its orbit of the milky way.

So using those numbers they would say the movements we would see would be small.
But after thousands of years, the buildings that ancient peoples made to line up with celestial events,
still line up with those stars.

And Polaris should have moved, some sort of movement over thousands of years should be seen.
Is the Andromida galaxy moving exactly with us?

What a load of complete utter drivel; are you now making things up to make a point or so deluded to as to be blinded by confirmation bias, relying on sources which promote misinformation and disinformation?

Here is an unpleasant fact for you since the earth is a spherical object which rotates about an axis it conforms to the physics of a spinning top where the rotation axis undergoes precession.
This causes the axis to shift, five thousand years ago the pole star was Thuban - Wikipedia not Polaris, the Egyptians knew this by aligning one of the ventilation shafts to the King's Chamber in the Great Pyramid to Thuban.

Then there is the discovery of the Solar apex - Wikipedia by William Herschel in the 18th century where the solar system is moving relative to the Milky Way.
The solar apex is located at RA 18h 03m 50.2s, dec +30° 00′ 16.8".
These days the science of Astrometry - Wikipedia is so precise stellar motion not attributed to the earth's rotation can be detected in very short periods of time.

 

[Estrid]

There is plenty proof that there was a flood.
Please inform me of the proof otherwise, my main point with sentiments like the above, is that your not speaking like a Christian.
If the Bible is so figurative, was the death and resurrection of Christ figurative?

If we believe that Christ actually rose from the dead, then all the other "fanciful" things in the Bible can not be very far fetched.
Either the Bible is your anchor of truth or it is not.
If it is not, you will very likely go along with the world, when they tell you the Bible is wrong,
and that Jesus is really just a humanoid alien from the first 'planet' that 'evolved'.

I could tell you of many ways that the global flood
story can be disproved.
It's pointless though. If you were interested in the truth
you would already know.

The way curious, humble, educated, and conscientious
Christians do.

That you, in claiming the ark story is history
are falsely accusing your " god is love" deity of
committing an atrocity beyond imaging
evidently does not concern you.

Nor do you invest the least effort to
determine the facts.
Nor yet a moments self doubt as you
assume an unearned mantle of infallibility.
" is it possible I'm not a 100% perfect
interpreter of the bible?"

" Is it wise and righteous, or ignorance
and arrogance that let's me say that all
who are not so reckless as i are not true christians?

Do yiu ever reflect so?

Maybe you should.

 

[Phil G]

What a load of complete utter drivel; are you now making things up to make a point

This…..and obviously so.

 

[BeyondET]

Big nope there

By the time it reaches the earth, it pretty much is. The maximum angle between light from one extreme of the sun to another is minuscule over that distance.

That's a shadow from sunlight, those aren't parallel sun rays.

 

[BeyondET]

View attachment 345676

commons . wikimedia . org/wiki/File:Sun_breaking_through_clouds_over_ocean.jpg


The sun is a local light in the sky, held up by perhaps electromagnetism.

In this thread I posted about the cardboard cloud experiment one can do to see the difference between light that is local
to light that is far away. Local light spreads out.

You mean when light rays reach earth 93 million miles away, it takes 8 minutes for sunlight to reach earth.

 

[sjastro]

This…..and obviously so.

Since stars drift out of position due to precession, Astronomical nutation - Wikipedia and Proper motion - Wikipedia astronomers need to redefine their positions in fifty year intervals known as epochs.

For the B1950.0 epoch the position of Polaris was RA 01h 48m 47s, Dec +89° 02’ 06".
For the J2000.0 epoch the position of Polaris was RA 02h 31m 49s, Dec +89° 16’ 10".

The idea that Polaris has remained in a fixed position for thousands of years is so ridiculously wrong.

 

[Gene2memE]

Not the earth, the sun. And every other solar system and star is moving at different speeds.

It is said to take 230 million years for the sun to complete its orbit of the milky way. So using those numbers they would say the movements we would see would be small.

Earth is part of the solar system....

While "every other solar system and star is moving at different speeds", they are mostly moving in broadly the same direction and their positions relative to each other are only changing in a very minor way. They're also very, very far away from us, so their relative change in position is very small from our frame of reference.

Picture cars on a highway. If everyone is doing roughly the speed limit and we're all going the same way, then there's very little change in our relative positions.

But after thousands of years, the buildings that ancient peoples made to line up with celestial events, still line up with those stars.

And Polaris should have moved, some sort of movement over thousands of years should be seen.

Polaris has moved. Just a very, very small amount.

Polaris has a relative motion in the sky of about 46 arcseconds per 1000 years. That's tiny.

Expressed another way, to an observer on earth Polaris moves across the sky by about 0.0000012777778 of a degree every year. So for Polaris to move a whole 1 degree across the sky, it would take about 782,000 years.

If ancient people built something 10,000 years ago to line up with Polaris, then it's still going to be lined up with Polaris. Because the star will have only traversed about 0.013th of a degree through the sky. I'm not sure about you, but I don't think that neolithic construction methods got down to hundredths of a degree of accuracy.

Is the Andromida galaxy moving exactly with us?

No. Andromeda and the Milky Way are actually moving towards each. They're coming towards each other at a rate of about 670,000 mph, or 5.8 billion miles per year. The two galaxies are estimated to start to merge in about 4.5 billion years.

Andromeda's relative motion in the sky is also very slow - about 152 arcseconds per 1000 years. So, it's moving about 1 degree every 236,000 years

 

[prodromos]

That's a shadow from sunlight, those aren't parallel sun rays.

Between the shadows are rays of sunlight and they are parallel. If the light from the sun wasn't effectively parallel rays, the shadows formed by the clouds would not be sharp and distinct. The width of the sun is 32 arc minutes, just over half a degree.

Regardless, what support do you have for your claims other than your say so?

 

[BeyondET]

Between the shadows are rays of sunlight and they are parallel. If the light from the sun wasn't effectively parallel rays, the shadows formed by the clouds would not be sharp and distinct. The width of the sun is 32 arc minutes, just over half a degree.

Regardless, what support do you have for your claims other than your say so?

The only reason sunlight is parallel is because of distance. The sun does not produce parallel rays.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

So in Joshua10:12-13 the account of the sun standing still and the moon stopping is an epic story or a true account?

What is it, a true story or just an "epic story" ?

Probably epic. What is the point of the Joshua narrative?

And Job chapter 38, that is not an account of Gods actual words?

Probably not. What is the point of the Job story?

Therefore, anytime what the Bible says does not line up with modern "science" it is just poetry or an epic story?

Many times, yes.

How does the death and resurrection of Christ line up with modern "science" ?

There is always the possibility that also is not historical. That is why we need faith. So then how deo we discern between figurative and literal? As I said, we need the guidance of our faith community.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I wish we could just tend to the Earth flat or global. Microplastics now suspected in colon cancer as well as diminishing our sexual differences.

 

[prodromos]

The only reason sunlight is parallel is because of distance. The sun does not produce parallel rays.

This doesn't address anything I have posted in response to your claims. Only a tiny fraction of light from the sun reaches the earth, and what does is practically parallel, within half a degree.

Either provide some evidence backing up your earlier claims or admit you were wrong and move on.

 

[sjastro]

On the subject of pole stars, planets and moons have their own stars that are of the 6th magnitude (barely visible to the naked eye) or brighter which are nearest to the celestial pole.

	Northern Pole Star​	Southern Pole Star​
Mercury​	Omicron Draconis​	Alpha Pictoris​
Venus​	42 Draconis​	Eta Doradus​
Earth​	Polaris​	Sigma Octantis​
Moon​	Omicron Draconis​	Delta Doradus​
Mars​	Line through Sadr and Deneb in Cygnus point to north celestial pole.​	Kappa Velorum​
Jupiter​	Zeta Draconis​	Delta Doradus​
Saturn​	No visible stars in far northern region of Cepheus.​	Delta Octantis​
Uranus​	Eta Ophiuchi​	15 Orionis​
Neptune​	Spot midway between Gamma and Delta Cygni.​	Gamma Velorum​

With the exception of Uranus, the pole stars belong to northern and southern constellations as seen from Earth.
Uranus is the odd one out as its axis of rotation is over 90 degrees from the vertical, Ophiuchus and Orion are constellations which occupy both sides of the celestial equator from Earth, are circumpolar as seen from Uranus.
How do flat earthers explain planets and moons having their own pole stars?