The gifts of the indwelling presence.

[Francis Drake]

It is because the baptism with the Spirit is not what many think it is today. For the early church believers, the baptism and filling with the Spirit is a constant process. The early Christians expected to be filled with the Spirit every day. This is why Paul said, "Be filled with the Spirit, sing to yourselves with psalms and spiritual songs". The filling was continuous. Not like in many churches today where their baptism with the Spirit was a one off event and thereafter the people pretended to be filled with the Spirit. It is the same with many altar calls where people go up, pray the sinner's prayer and walk back still as much in their sins as before. What they fail to do is when they leave the church go home, get on their knees in prayer and actually repent of their sin, nail them to the Cross and ask the Holy Spirit to genuinely convert them to Christ.

Yes, this is largely the point I made in my post

Also, the Holy Spirit will not fill an unclean vessel. Before a person can be truly filled with the Spirit, he has to have his lust, greed, pride, gossiping, envy, jealously and other works of the flesh repented of and nailed to the Cross first. Then he will be filled with the Spirit. This is why what people call the baptism with the Spirit in churches is merely a damp squib, because the prerequisite of repentance from sin is not made a condition for being filled with the Spirit.

I completely disagree, the above contradicts what Jesus said,
Lk11v9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11If a son asks for [e]bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
You will note that the only requirement is that of asking!
You will note that Jesus didn't tell them to get their lives sorted and cleansed before the Holy Spirit would be sent. If we are able to sort our lives out without the help of the Holy Spirit, why do we need the Spirit?
The truth is that new Christians should be prayed for and filled with the Holy Spirit immediately on conversion!

With all the churches preaching the Gospel, praying for the sick, casting out demons, and speaking in tongues, our society has gotten worse, not better. There is no impact on the wider community. With the city full of churches claiming to worship God in the Spirit, revival has not come, and the secular community go on without a care. Quite different to the early Church who turned the world upside down for Christ.

From my perspective, the churches are rarely doing any of the above. For every church that's on fire, there are dozens more that have let a 'woke' anything goes gospel take over.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I completely disagree, the above contradicts what Jesus said,
Lk11v9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11If a son asks for [e]bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”
You will note that the only requirement is that of asking!
You will note that Jesus didn't tell them to get their lives sorted and cleansed before the Holy Spirit would be sent. If we are able to sort our lives out without the help of the Holy Spirit, why do we need the Spirit?
The truth is that new Christians should be prayed for and filled with the Holy Spirit immediately on conversion!


From my perspective, the churches are rarely doing any of the above. For every church that's on fire, there are dozens more that have let a 'woke' anything goes gospel take over.

I think that you may be confusing the work of the Holy Spirit in us to bring about the transformation that comes through being totally converted to Christ and then the on going work to cause us to be conformed to the image of Christ. When Jesus breathed on the Apostles and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit", that is when they received the indwelling of the Spirit to bring about their conversion to Christ. But the Day of Pentecost was still to arrive when they were to receive the enduement of power from on high. The enduement of power is a different function of the Holy Spirit and this is to give believers power to preach the Gospel boldly with signs and wonders in order to get people to turn to Christ.

It is significant that Paul, in his instructions to Timothy, that novices in the faith were not to be appointed to eldership in the church. This shows that Paul didn't believe that novices, being 5 minutes in the faith, should be given positions of ministry, even though they may have received the baptism with the Spirit and the potential to manifest the gifts. This is the problem with some Charismatic churches. There are novices still wet behind the ears running around thinking they can use the gifts of the Spirit to minister to others. Paul would have regarded such people as being lifted up in pride and falling into the condemnation of the devil. I believe that before anyone can minister effectively in the Spirit, they would have to do a lot of growing in grace and holiness first. Without holiness one can not even see the Lord, let alone successfully minister in the Spirit with demonstration and power. That is why we see a lot of talk and speech making about the Holy Spirit and the gifts, but little to no actual demonstration of it, in our western churches anyway. I can't say the same for the third world Christian groups, because things are very different there, with actual demonstration of the Spirit and power with conversions, healing and deliverances - things we never see in our so called superior western churches.

In my view, a "woke" gospel is no Gospel at all, and a "woke" Jesus is not the Jesus of the Gospels. Therefore I have my doubts that "woke" Christians are even saved no matter how religious they are in their talk and actions.

 

[kenny123]

As Christians, we believe that when we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the Holy Spirit come to dwell within us. This indwelling presence is a precious gift from God, and it brings with it a multitude of blessings and benefits. The Spirit helps us to understand God's Word, convicts us of sin, and empowers us to live a life that honors God. He also gives us spiritual gifts, such as wisdom, discernment, and prophecy, which enable us to serve God and others more effectively. Christian Gifts- Christ Follower Life, we offer a wide selection of products that celebrate the gifts of the indwelling presence. From beautiful artwork and decor to inspiring books and study materials, our collection is designed to help you deepen your relationship with God and explore the richness of His presence within you. So why not take a moment to browse our selection and discover the many ways that God's Spirit is working in your life?

 

[ARBITER01]

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

Our rebirth is the Spiritual immersion that adds us to the body of Christ. That is when The Holy Spirit applies the blood of Jesus to our human spirit and we are made into His likeness. We are also sealed with The Holy Spirit inside. With that comes the fruit of The Spirit.

The filling of The Holy Spirit brings the indwelling presence inside us along with His gifts.

I'm not sure I would say that the things you pointed out in your original post happened when He was filled,..... maybe they happened when He was anointed after His trials and temptations in the wilderness.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I agree in theory, but I really do think that seeing we have a risen. glorified Christ, we should be seeing much more of Holy Spirit power that makes the community around us clearly aware that we are here. I think we are too used to just a fraction of the power that the 120 on the Day of Pentecost had that made the whole city aware of what happened to them. I think that the community around our churches either don't know that we are there, or they are so indifferent they don't care. Maybe all our steam is going out through the whistle, and that in spite of the speech making and talk of having the power of the Holy Spirit, it is strangely absent. Maybe God sees things in our churches that we can't see, like Achan's greed caused a major defeat at Ai, and Joshua never knew until the Lord told him that the defeat happened because there was sin in the camp. I think what we need is a baptism of holiness as well as of power. Then we might see something worthwhile happening in the community around us.

So the way we gather needs serious review...

 

[Carl Emerson]

maybe they happened when He was anointed after His trials and temptations in the wilderness.

Can you identify this occasion from Scripture ?

 

[ARBITER01]

Can you identify this occasion from Scripture ?

Absolutely,....

First part in Luke,...

Luk 4:13 And when the devil had completed every temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and a fame went out concerning him through all the region round about.

Then the next section of Luke describes specifically how He received this,....

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

The power of The Holy Spirit was upon Jesus after His return from the temptations in the wilderness, and that was because The Lord GOD had anointed His head with the Spiritual Oil.

Anointing's in the OT were always upon the head of the Priest, Prophet, or King,... and this was no different in the day of Jesus, or during our time here either. The oil of holiness from the recipe of Exodus 30 was the shadow of the truth of what was to be the Spiritual reality in the NT for Jesus and us. I know that 1John 2:27 is normally translated "within" in relation to the anointing, but it can also be translated on or upon, which would agree with the many OT examples better. Most translators though just take the easiest definition of the Greek word when they put together a bible.

So,........... if I were to understand any of the aspects that you were pointing out about Jesus receiving in your original post, I would say that they were tied into the particular anointing that Jesus received. It was that anointing which allowed The power of The Holy Spirit to rest upon Him, as scripture points out.

I've been talking about this on here for a little while now, but it seems to just go over the head of individuals on here. They figure that once they received the filling with the gifts, that was the empowerment,..... but Jesus describes things differently.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Absolutely,....

First part in Luke,...

Luk 4:13 And when the devil had completed every temptation, he departed from him for a season.
Luk 4:14 And Jesus returned in the power of the Spirit into Galilee: and a fame went out concerning him through all the region round about.

Then the next section of Luke describes specifically how He received this,....

Luk 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Isaiah. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written,
Luk 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised,
Luk 4:19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Luk 4:20 And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down: and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.
Luk 4:21 And he began to say unto them, Today hath this scripture been fulfilled in your ears.

The power of The Holy Spirit was upon Jesus after His return from the temptations in the wilderness, and that was because The Lord GOD had anointed His head with the Spiritual Oil.

Anointing's in the OT were always upon the head of the Priest, Prophet, or King,... and this was no different in the day of Jesus, or during our time here either. The oil of holiness from the recipe of Exodus 30 was the shadow of the truth of what was to be the Spiritual reality in the NT for Jesus and us. I know that 1John 2:27 is normally translated "within" in relation to the anointing, but it can also be translated on or upon, which would agree with the many OT examples better. Most translators though just take the easiest definition of the Greek word when they put together a bible.

So,........... if I were to understand any of the aspects that you were pointing out about Jesus receiving in your original post, I would say that they were tied into the particular anointing that Jesus received. It was that anointing which allowed The power of The Holy Spirit to rest upon Him, as scripture points out.

I've been talking about this on here for a little while now, but it seems to just go over the head of individuals on here. They figure that once they received the filling with the gifts, that was the empowerment,..... but Jesus describes things differently.

But if the Spirit came and remained on Jesus at Baptism - how come some other event was needed ?

Was He not empowered during the temptation ?

 

[ARBITER01]

But if the Spirit came and remained on Jesus at Baptism - how come some other event was needed ?

Was He not empowered during the temptation ?

Well I understand the event after His water immersion to be His filling inside with the gifts, just like what happens for us. His example would be no different from ours in that regard.

We are sealed with The Spirit, then filled with The Spirit, then empowered with The Spirit,..... at least that is what the scripture accounts record.

I don't expect everyone to fully understand this, but it is there in scripture, and the anointing upon my head is what I've experienced several times also.

EDIT: Scripture records the filling of The Spirit also,....

Luk 4:1 And Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan, and was led by the Spirit in the wilderness
Luk 4:2 during forty days, being tempted of the devil. And he did eat nothing in those days: and when they were completed, he hungered.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

So the way we gather needs serious review...

It might be the way we pray that needs the serious review, if some actually pray at all.

 

[Carl Emerson]

It might be the way we pray that needs the serious review, if some actually pray at all.

That as well...

 

[ARBITER01]

Going back over your original post Carl,....

Isa 11:1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots shall bear fruit:
Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isa 11:3 And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears:

All of these differing aspects of The Spirit of GOD were to be resting upon Him at some point, and they did.

You wanted to connect this to a believers born again experience and their sealing with The Holy Spirit inside, but I wouldn't agree with that seeing what the text says now.

Believers are very much like the old tabernacle of Exodus. There was an outer court, a holy place, and the holy of holies in the very center of it. In similar fashion, we are first sealed with The Holy Spirit on the very inside of us which relates to the holy of holies, and then we are filled with The Spirit inside of our torso portion of our body which relates to the holy place just outside of the holy of holies, and then we are empowered by The Holy Spirit resting upon us which relates to the outer court.

GOD starts at the very center of our being and works His way out. This was the example that Jesus gave us in scripture, and we see the results of it with the Apostles and Disciples of the 1st Century, as well as it happening in our lives.

It's not a work from GOD that automatically happens to any of us, we are involved in the process of it, and that can hinder it greatly. And additionally, we have an enemy trying to stop these very steps from happening in our lives through any means possible. So it's a real battle over time for anyone to reach that point of empowerment from GOD. Very few Christians do.

But anyways, I think the text points to those aspects of The Holy Spirit that were to be resting upon Jesus.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

After a lot of thought over a period of time, I have come to the conclusion that the notion that one develops himself spiritually over time until he glows in the dark, is not a Biblical concept.

In fact, it is not about us at all. We don't become better people as we grow in grace. We remain the same in ourselves. What does develop is our increasing dependence on the promises of God and the teaching that the Holy Spirit gives us. The gifts of the Spirit never belong to us, nor are they extensions of our ability. They are the outworking of the ability of the Holy Spirit as we work in cooperation with Him.

In fact, instead of developing into super-Christians, which is all about self, we develop our faith in the sufficiency of God's Word and the Holy Spirit to do the work that He empowers us to do. The idea of developing ourselves spiritually is New Age. It takes the glory away from Christ because it can give the impression that as a super Christian I can accomplish great things through my own spiritually developed ability. This was the problem with those who Jesus refused to acknowledge at the Judgment. "Have we not prophesied, cast out demons and done mighty works in your name? Jesus replied: "I never knew you. Depart from Me you workers of iniquity." This is because the ones rejected by Christ have put the emphasis on "me, me, me" by thinking that power with God comes from puffing themselves up in some kind of New Age spiritual development until they just about glow in the dark. They think it is because of their own superior spirituality or holiness that achieves success in their lives and ministry.

This is the self deception in a person who dresses himself in a white suit and thinks he has a special anointing where no one can touch him - that he is above guidance and correction and accountable to no one but himself.

Jesus said that we need to become like little children if we are to inherit the kingdom of God. A child is totally dependent on his parents and caregivers. This is what a childlike faith is all about. "We have the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God who raises the dead."

King Saul was secure in his role when he was "little in his own eyes". But when he started thinking he was somebody, he fell out with God and ended up losing his kingdom and his life, and took some good people down with him.

Solomon had the right idea. At the end of his life, he concluded that "all is vanity". This was in spite of his great wisdom, which was a gift from God rather than any personal development; and his accomplishments and his wealth. He had risen to the top, and yet in the final analysis, all he could look for was the grave.

So I conclude that the quest for greater spiritual development in ourselves is a road to nowhere.

 

[IoanC]

Inner peace, spiritual happiness could be Gifts of The Holy Spirit.

 

[mourningdove~]

After a lot of thought over a period of time, I have come to the conclusion that the notion that one develops himself spiritually over time until he glows in the dark, is not a Biblical concept.

In fact, it is not about us at all. We don't become better people as we grow in grace. We remain the same in ourselves. What does develop is our increasing dependence on the promises of God and the teaching that the Holy Spirit gives us. The gifts of the Spirit never belong to us, nor are they extensions of our ability. They are the outworking of the ability of the Holy Spirit as we work in cooperation with Him.

Apart from God, we can do nothing ... no matter how 'good' or 'spiritual' or 'glowing' we may think we have become.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Inner peace, spiritual happiness could be Gifts of The Holy Spirit.

Hindus and Muslims have those things as well.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Hindus and Muslims have those things as well.

Not the same peace according to scripture...

Deut 23

5 But the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam; instead the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loved you. 6 You shall not seek their peace or their prosperity all your days forever.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

For everyone who lives on milk is still an infant, inexperienced in the message of righteousness. But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained their senses to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:13-14)

This is the best Scripture reference to show the difference between a novice in the faith and a mature, experienced believer. It has nothing to do with developing 'glow in the dark' spirituality within one's self. It comes through the constant use of the Scriptures, training the senses to distinguish between good and evil. Our only standard of good and evil is found in the Bible through the narratives, prophecies, and instructions we find in it.

Maturity in the faith consists in a growing dependence on the Holy Spirit to show us God's will and to give us the strength and power to carry it out. This idea of becoming more spiritual comes from New Age, and where the Word of Faith, "little gods" theology adapts New Age thinking to develop the idea that we become so super spiritual in ourselves that we can tell God what to do and demand all kinds of things from Him. What develops is a kind of self dependence and that God will bless what we decide and do. This goes right against the Scripture: "All our own righteousness is as filthy rags to God", and "We have the sentence of death in ourselves that we should not trust in ourselves [ie: our own notion of glow in the dark spirituality], but trust in God who raises the dead." Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me." A crucified person has no future, no matter how super spiritual he think he is. He is a potentially dead man, nailed to a cross. This is in keeping with Charles Spurgeon's quote:

"I'm just a poor sinner and nothing at all,
but Jesus Christ is my all in all"

D Martyn Lloyd-Jones said: "There is no such person as a good Christian. We are all vile people saved by the grace of God."

Paul said, "We are saved by grace through faith [in Christ], not of ourselves, but is a gift of God. Not of works lest any should boast."

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Not the same peace according to scripture...

Deut 23

5 But the Lord your God would not listen to Balaam; instead the Lord your God turned the curse into a blessing for you, because the Lord your God loved you. 6 You shall not seek their peace or their prosperity all your days forever.

Faith in Christ is not based in experiences or feelings of peace. It is a settled trust in the promises in God's Word. The peace of God that passes all understanding as described in Philippians 4:6 is not just a feeling of peace. It is a deep, settled peace that arises from the knowledge and trust that God has heard our requests and that the outcome is according to His own sovereign will, and that whatever He decides in response to our requests will be good for us. "All things work together for good for those who love God and who are called according to His purpose".

Security based on feelings of peace are dependent on circumstances. When things go well for us, we feel a greater security and peace; but when everything goes wrong and turns to effluent, then those feelings of peace and security vanish and are replaced by fear, panic and depression. But the peace of God remains, because it is not dependent on feelings or emotions, it is a deep settled peace knowing that although everything has fallen to pieces around us, God is still there and we can trust Him that everything will turn out for good.
"Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, you are with me; your rod and staff comforts me." The rod of correction and the staff of guidance are all found in the Bible, and those who love God and who are familiar with the Bible are able to submit to the rod and staff and know that the dark clouds will roll away and the sunshine of blessing will break through again.

 

[IoanC]

Hindus and Muslims have those things as well.

Galatians 5:22-23​

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. "

How do they determine the gifts come from God The Holy Spirit? Are they purified from sin so that God can dwell within them through Grace?