The gifts of the indwelling presence.

[Carl Emerson]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

I have come to the conclusion that the baptism of the Holy Spirit , given by the Father, is at a time when one's heart is for Him, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. This is not always the case and probably less often than we realize. It is the elect after all. Blessings.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.​

The spirit of Christ is given to us the moment we accept Christ, otherwise, we are not His.

Yet we see:

Act 13:9 Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him​

Now we know Paul already had the Holy Spirit, he received it earlier.

Act 9:17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."​

But this verse seems to indicate there is an enlightening, or filling, that occurs at times, greater than the normal.

I believe all Christians have the Holy Spirit, but they can be filled with new joy, power, or toped-up.

Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.
​

 

[tturt]

Agree that we receive the Holy Spirit when we become His then as believers we can become filled.
Scriptures such as - "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," (Eph 1:13)

Then Jesus who sends the promise of the Father baptists us "by," "with" and "in" the Holy Spirit and comes upon us (The Spirit baptism)
"I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost." (Mark 1:8)

-"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:26).
-'But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:8).

In regards to the 7 Spirits of God to believers, though it seems this would be all spiritual, the first person stated to receive the Spirit of the Lord was Bezaleel. God told Moses "I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah: 3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship, 4 To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, 5 And in cutting of stones, to set them, and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship. And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;" (Exo 31:1-6) Accepted and applied to our lives - guidance, comprehension, purpose, strength or vigor, and reverence, desire to please God.

Starting with the fear of the Lord:
Though listed last in Isa 11:2, it doesn't indicate the importance of the fear of the Lord. Because - "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Pro 9:10).

Other Scripture indicates the fear of the Lord can be taught to children (Psa 34:11), chosen (Pro 1:29), and learned (Pro 2:1-5).

Had wondered how to marry all of these. "HIM," a CF poster, stated a gem with "There is a fear OF the Lord which He gives us and there is a fear of the Lord where we understand His righteousness and power." posted by HIM on another thread

Isa 11:2 gives what's available to us as believers for all areas of our lives. The Bible is filled with God's wisdom and we can chose to believe what it states. It's a process. Can result in "Churches walked in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 9:31).

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

Ooooo this is new and definitely something I'll have to look into. At first glance though, since Revelation 3 says, "He who has the seven spirits of God..." that would indicate that the seven spirits of God are specifically referencing Christ and not that it is given at belief. The fact that it was also used as a marker for the Messiah by Isaiah is further proof that those seven spirits of God were reserved for Christ alone. Otherwise, stating that as a proof of who is speaking (Jesus) would be irrelevant since, by your theory, every Christian has the seven spirits since the moment they believed.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Ooooo this is new and definitely something I'll have to look into. At first glance though, since Revelation 3 says, "He who has the seven spirits of God..." that would indicate that the seven spirits of God are specifically referencing Christ and not that it is given at belief. The fact that it was also used as a marker for the Messiah by Isaiah is further proof that those seven spirits of God were reserved for Christ alone. Otherwise, stating that as a proof of who is speaking (Jesus) would be irrelevant since, by your theory, every Christian has the seven spirits since the moment they believed.

Yes... if we receive the fullness of the Holy Spirit at rebirth then these seven spirits come as a package deal. However as the rebirth kicks off the process of redemption and sanctification which is life long, and baggage remains meantime - being the unredeemed flesh - then there is limitation on the degree to which the Holy Spirit can operate against the desires of the flesh. For this reason we need to take each one of these seven attributes and seek Him for the release which will allow them to manifest in their fullness.

If by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh we will live... Rom 8:13

What I like about this understanding is that it is for all and not just the gifted.

So the life of Jesus in His fullness is to manifest in all of us from rebirth but we have to attend to the blockages.

 

[public hermit]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

Is this what is referred to as the second blessing? I read a fascinating book on the subject, it was quite old, but it had various 1st person accounts of their experience with the second blessing.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Is this what is referred to as the second blessing? I read a fascinating book on the subject, it was quite old, but it had various 1st person accounts of their experience with the second blessing.

Well the problem with theology is when it becomes a demand as to how God must act.

It seems to me God works His ways in us individually.

Some can remember the day they were born again.

Some remember being born again at baptism.

Some can never identify a time when they were born again but know they are His.

Some are born again and receive the Gifts of the Spirit at the same time.

Sadly we form a theology around this and insist that that is the only way God may act.

I was born again at 13, fell away for 11 years, returned at 28 and was baptised in the Spirit at 30.

I can describe those events in detail as they are etched into my memory, but they are different for everyone, the common element is a profound personal encounter with Him.

First blessing - yes.

Second blessing - yes

Third blessing - why not - there is always more for those who are sold out and thirsty for Him and His purpose.

But what I am trying to emphasise is Christ in us and what that means to have the fulness of His Spirit residing within us from rebirth. Many have failed to understand the implications of being indwelled with Jesus. We have to get out of the way and let Him be who He is inside.

When He reigns in us the Kingdom is manifest and we are transformed.

 

[Francis Drake]

Hi there,

Here is a teaching for your consideration.

My position on the Holy Spirit Baptism is that it can occur in some individuals as a second event after being born again.

That leads to the question of what is received at re-birth.

What comes with His indwelling presence?

To understand this I reference Isaiah 11

11 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse,
And a Branch from his roots will bear fruit.
2 The Spirit of the Lord will rest on Him,
The spirit of wisdom and understanding,
The spirit of counsel and strength,
The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord.

This reference is to seven spirits.

These Seven Spirits of God are also referenced four times in Revelation.

1. Revelation 1:4
   John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from Him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before His throne,
   
   
2. Revelation 3:
   “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, and yet you are dead.
   
   
3. Revelation 4:5
   Out from the throne *came flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven spirits of God;
   
   
4. Revelation 5:6
   And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

So these seven spirits are given with the indwelling presence of Christ.
This was the anointing Jesus received and the anointing that the disciples received when He breathed on them.

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

Comments most welcome.

Our spirit is made alive to God at rebirth.
That is an event in our heart.

Being filled with the Spirit as a separate event, is when the Spirit of God fills the vessel/temple.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Our spirit is made alive to God at rebirth.
That is an event in our heart.

Being filled with the Spirit as a separate event, is when the Spirit of God fills the vessel/temple.

Well when Jesus was baptised in the Spirit, the Spirit came upon and remained upon.

From that time He was empowered to minister as the Father directed.

He was indwelled with the Spirit from conception.

The disciples were indwelled when He breathed on them and received.

Empowering came later at Pentecost.

However in His name they ministered before this as the 12 and the 72 but that was an exceptional anointing associated with His being incarnate and Lord on Earth.

I expect we probably agree on this basic stuff...

 

[YahuahSaves]

Few seem to realise that All believers are to enjoy these manifestations and this is for everyone as these are not the 'Gifts of the Spirit' received later at Pentecost.

I completely agree. although despite what others on this thread believe, I think this is also a choice. Jesus breathed on the disciples... are we sure he didn't breathe into them, like he did with Adam in the account of creation? Shortly after accepting Christ, I was outside having a smoke (I had no idea what salvation truly meant at the time, or what Jesus being Lord really meant either) Jesus said to me to let him "breathe" into me and my internal wall immediately went up (I've had past trauma that resulted in not letting anyone get too close to me) so the potential intimacy of it was confronting to say the least...I in no way deny he exists in my heart, but the past year for me has been pretty extreme spiritually speaking.

This is why correct teaching of scripture is so important, because if we don't understand what the cross and salvation truly means, or what it means for Jesus to be Lord of our life, we don't get very far as new believers and tend to go in circles for months or even years after being "saved".

 

[Blade]

"And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.". Then in Acts "but to wait for the Promise of the Father, “which,” He said, “you have heard from Me;". For me they were not already filled baptized in the holy Spirit this came when they waited for the promise. Not filled twice.

There is no verse for "once you got saved you are already baptized in the holy spirit so you don't need to ask for it as Luke 11:13 tell us to ask. Paul asked them Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” In this verse did God forgot to give it to them?

See for me I toss out everything any one says even my own thinking and go with Luke 11:13. Christ said in John 3:16 who so ever believes. Well why do we hmm obey believe do what He said in John 3:16 but now Luke 11:13? Yeah.. man I am going to take everything my Father is giving for as He said "But let God be true, and every man a liar". So if He said you being evil know how to give good gifts to your children how much more will your heavenly Father give the holy Sprit to them that ask. There is so much Christ said in the Gospels man tells us is for today and we better obey. Then do as He asked in Luke 11:13 period. Praise you Father.. yes oh it was like night and day. I was saved the day before I asked. The next night I asked.. oh YES it was exactly as HE said you shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you.

So before He said that.. were they all sinners? Not one was saved? Not one already believed? Did He not say don't rejoice because demons have to obey you but that your names "are" written in heaven. Yet He told them you shall... after the holy spirit is come upon you.

So I did as He said not what any man said. I asked didn't feel a thing. They in a bible study asked me if I wanted the holy spirit I said yes they read only what the bible says then said a very short prayer then just stopped said "thats it you got it". See they did nothing.. the Father said He will give the holy Spirit to them that ask. So they heard me ask so they knew no matter what the Father gave me the holy Spirit. I got up went to sit down and started speaking in tongues. No one was speaking in tongues before that or after. No one said a word to me. I knew nothing about the holy Spirit nor speaking in tongues. So He is alive and its still doing what He promised to those that ask. Again oh HOW I lived before that day with out the sweet sweet holy Spirit.. luke 11:13.. don't take my word for anything. You read. and you make the choice.

He can not give anything other then the holy Spirit. All that ask ONLY get the holy Spirit never a false spirit or God would be a liar.

 

[Francis Drake]

Well when Jesus was baptised in the Spirit, the Spirit came upon and remained upon.

From that time He was empowered to minister as the Father directed.

He was indwelled with the Spirit from conception.

The disciples were indwelled when He breathed on them and received.

Empowering came later at Pentecost.

However in His name they ministered before this as the 12 and the 72 but that was an exceptional anointing associated with His being incarnate and Lord on Earth.

I expect we probably agree on this basic stuff...

I believe that when we are born again, God's Spirit melds with our human spirit, rather like the DNA of our parents split and reform at our conception. Don't ask me for scriptures cos I'm trying to get my head around the huge difference between being born of the Spirit, and subsequently filled with the Spirit, (eg. Pentecost)

I would also argue that when we are subsequently filled with the Spirit, that filling must be constantly renewed, otherwise with our daily cares, that infilling can wane..
The necessity of refilling is proven by what happened after Peter was released from interrogation by the Pharisees etc. Acts4v30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31After they had prayed, their meeting place was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Why would they need to be filled with the Spirit again if these people had already gone through Pentecost and been thoroughly filled back then?

Acts13v9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas 10and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness, you are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery! Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?…
Why did Paul need to be filled if he was already filled?

These verses and others indicate that being filled with the Spirit is a separate event from being born of the Spirit, and that being filled is something we should seek daily

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I have a question: How many people in your city claim to be baptised with the Holy Spirit? 100? 1000? or more? Then how come 120 people got baptised with the Holy Spirit in an upper room, and whole city knew about it and 3000 people ended up getting saved, and your city knows nothing of the more than 120 who claim the baptism with the Holy Spirit? I wonder if the baptism with the Spirit the 120 experienced were somehow different to the baptism that are claimed in your city? Food for thought...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I believe that when we are born again, God's Spirit melds with our human spirit, rather like the DNA of our parents split and reform at our conception. Don't ask me for scriptures cos I'm trying to get my head around the huge difference between being born of the Spirit, and subsequently filled with the Spirit, (eg. Pentecost)

I would also argue that when we are subsequently filled with the Spirit, that filling must be constantly renewed, otherwise with our daily cares, that infilling can wane..
The necessity of refilling is proven by what happened after Peter was released from interrogation by the Pharisees etc. Acts4v30as You stretch out Your hand to heal and perform signs and wonders through the name of Your holy servant Jesus.” 31After they had prayed, their meeting place was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.

Why would they need to be filled with the Spirit again if these people had already gone through Pentecost and been thoroughly filled back then?

Acts13v9Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas 10and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness, you are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery! Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord?…
Why did Paul need to be filled if he was already filled?

These verses and others indicate that being filled with the Spirit is a separate event from being born of the Spirit, and that being filled is something we should seek daily

It is because the baptism with the Spirit is not what many think it is today. For the early church believers, the baptism and filling with the Spirit is a constant process. The early Christians expected to be filled with the Spirit every day. This is why Paul said, "Be filled with the Spirit, sing to yourselves with psalms and spiritual songs". The filling was continuous. Not like in many churches today where their baptism with the Spirit was a one off event and thereafter the people pretended to be filled with the Spirit. It is the same with many altar calls where people go up, pray the sinner's prayer and walk back still as much in their sins as before. What they fail to do is when they leave the church go home, get on their knees in prayer and actually repent of their sin, nail them to the Cross and ask the Holy Spirit to genuinely convert them to Christ.

Also, the Holy Spirit will not fill an unclean vessel. Before a person can be truly filled with the Spirit, he has to have his lust, greed, pride, gossiping, envy, jealously and other works of the flesh repented of and nailed to the Cross first. Then he will be filled with the Spirit. This is why what people call the baptism with the Spirit in churches is merely a damp squib, because the prerequisite of repentance from sin is not made a condition for being filled with the Spirit.

With all the churches preaching the Gospel, praying for the sick, casting out demons, and speaking in tongues, our society has gotten worse, not better. There is no impact on the wider community. With the city full of churches claiming to worship God in the Spirit, revival has not come, and the secular community go on without a care. Quite different to the early Church who turned the world upside down for Christ.

 

[GTW27]

Blessings in Christ Jesus. I have found that The Lord fills my cup when I am not looking. It is like going out into the world with a cup of sparkling clear water in my right hand. Along the way I run into many souls that are thirsty, thirsty for the good news of The Gospel. And then it is The Lord that has me give them something to drink. I do not plan this, it just happens. Even though I can not see it, this cup must be full at the beginning of the day, because many drink from it. Worldly thinking would say this cup must be close to empty by the end of the day but indeed it is not. I have found that when you give others something to drink, The Lord(Jesus) fills this cup to overflowing. Like David said," my cup overflows" with the Goodness of The Lord.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Just to say that the Baptism and the filling are two different issues.

Both are needed, the Baptism kicks the life of being filled, off.

Personally I associate the Baptism with a very deep repentance - I think that to carry the empowering He needs a clean vessel.

However in all this He doesn't need a perfect life - we remain imperfect vessels giving Him Glory for what He does with and through us.

It is a contrite heart that is the necessary foundation for a life of effective empowered service.

"I die daily" Paul said - and so it is, each day returning to the Cross - nothing of myself and all of Him.

That is where Power and imperfection meet in His Love and purpose.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Just to say that the Baptism and the filling are two different issues.

Both are needed, the Baptism kicks the life of being filled, off.

Personally I associate the Baptism with a very deep repentance - I think that to carry the empowering He needs a clean vessel.

However in all this He doesn't need a perfect life - we remain imperfect vessels giving Him Glory for what He does with and through us.

It is a contrite heart that is the necessary foundation for a life of effective empowered service.

"I die daily" Paul said - and so it is, each day returning to the Cross - nothing of myself and all of Him.

That is where Power and imperfection meet in His Love and purpose.

I agree in theory, but I really do think that seeing we have a risen. glorified Christ, we should be seeing much more of Holy Spirit power that makes the community around us clearly aware that we are here. I think we are too used to just a fraction of the power that the 120 on the Day of Pentecost had that made the whole city aware of what happened to them. I think that the community around our churches either don't know that we are there, or they are so indifferent they don't care. Maybe all our steam is going out through the whistle, and that in spite of the speech making and talk of having the power of the Holy Spirit, it is strangely absent. Maybe God sees things in our churches that we can't see, like Achan's greed caused a major defeat at Ai, and Joshua never knew until the Lord told him that the defeat happened because there was sin in the camp. I think what we need is a baptism of holiness as well as of power. Then we might see something worthwhile happening in the community around us.

 

[mourningdove~]

With all the churches preaching the Gospel, praying for the sick, casting out demons, and speaking in tongues, our society has gotten worse, not better. There is no impact on the wider community. With the city full of churches claiming to worship God in the Spirit, revival has not come, and the secular community go on without a care. Quite different to the early Church who turned the world upside down for Christ.

As of late, I have thought about this (^) myself.

Maybe it is, that things would be much worse ... if those things (^) had not/were not happening.
And yet, here in America, things definitely do continue to worsen ...

Something about 'the picture' just doesn't quite make sense to me ...
as if maybe some of us have mistakenly gone 'wrong' in our ways?

... I do continue to ponder it, and self-reflect ...

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

As of late, I have thought about this (^) myself.

Maybe it is, that things would be much worse ... if those things (^) had not/were not happening.
And yet, here in America, things definitely do continue to worsen ...

Something about 'the picture' just doesn't quite make sense to me ...
as if maybe some of us have mistakenly gone 'wrong' in our ways?

... I do continue to ponder it, and self-reflect ...

What I see when I read about the revivals that have changed societies is that those involved are praying people who have spent hours, months, years praying for revival. Evan Roberts prayed for 13 years before the revival broke out in Wales. Jonathan Edwards was a praying man. David Brainerd would pray for so long in the snow that the snow would melt around him, and when he preached to the American Indians, the Holy Spirit would fall on them. Modern evangelism has mislead people and made people think that the fallow ground can be broken up in 20 minutes before the seed can be planted. I read somewhere that it takes 20 years bring the perfect sermon because it can take 20 years to perfect the man preaching it.

It seems that God needs to strip away everything we think we are and can do, our confidence, until we have nothing but Christ. Then the Lord will say, "At last! Now you are ready to do My will." I think that after over 50 years of being a Christian, I am still paddling on the side of the spiritual river instead of being in it to swim in.

Viewing the sermons of Leonard Ravenhill on Youtube gives me some important clues - enough to make me discontented with our current state.