The Beginning

[Rudolph1]

Let's say it's not God what do you think the something else is? From nothing or what?

I was convinced in another convo. It's God. Thanks for u help

 

[Rudolph1]

Accept the Gospel, my friend.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Thank you I am convinced that God exists. Thank you for ur kind words

 

[AV1611VET]

Thank you I am convinced that God exists. Thank you for ur kind words

You're very welcome.

Have a Happy New Year, and nice chatting with you!

 

[Estrid]

First part, because it's outside of time, out side of how everything else is limited to how there's a cause or effect. How can a cause exist without time. And I finished a convo with someone else and by definition God isn't a cause as we see as a cause and effect. Because that law follows only in time, but God is something that made things so if that makes sense. Like he made the things happen supernatural. But the we can't use the word cause because that term on applies in time.

I've noticed a society without God or a standard moral rulling is often worse of. I've seen how God has changed people's life and the beauty it has brought in art and philosophy. And I want to eventually raise my kids in that. So I'm giving it a shot to try.

Japan and Finland are outstanding
societies. Likewise Singapore
Ive not spent time in finland but japan and s'pore
are clean, orderly, low crime, low substance abuse,
stellar academic achievement , top health and
life expectancy.

None of those are christian societies.

Traditional chinese moral and ethical
values are similar to ( tho imo superior
to) christian values.


The absolutely worst places are all theocraci

Consider your cause and effect.

And correlations!

 

[Laodicean60]

I was convinced in another convo. It's God. Thanks for u help

My 2 cents. There are too many legalistic Christians that bible bashes you to death. What Brad said below is true it's what Jesus said, but I'll try to make it simple. It's part of the great commandment in Mark (below). Because if you can love humankind in thought and action everything in the bible will come out in the wash. I tell you, the hardest part for me is my thoughts toward people. It's no cake walk because it's not natural. Serve others before yourself and not expect anything in return. But I hope you find what you're looking for. Peace

Mar 12:31
“And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[fn] There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Jesus is meant to have taught rings a lot of bells with me

 

[Derf]

God created the universe and also therefore time. Which exists within the universe.

What you mean by that is, "since God created time, therefore God created time." Not very convincing.

God doesn't exist in the universe. He is eternal.

Which you define as "outside of time." I hope you see that your reasoning is circular. "God is eternal, which means outside of time. Therefore God is outside of time."

Which is not relevant to time in any way. If He creates animals then He creates them in the universe and therefore in time.

By your definition, that time is a created thing. But if God is outside of time, then there's another way to save mankind rather than have Jesus die...just change what happened in the past. Make it so Jesus never had to die, because Adam never sinned. If it doesn't work the first 4 million times He tries it, just do it another 4 billion times. Won't matter to God, since He's outside of time.

But what does scripture say?
Romans 5:6 KJV — For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Christ, Who forever became a man, was not a man before. Before what? Before time? If God is outside of time, then Jesus, who is God, can't become something. Can't become anything. Scripture never says God is outside of time, nor that He created time.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

You will never understand everything to the point where it will convince you to prove the elements of faith.
Just accept it as fact.

 

[Bradskii]

What you mean by that is, "since God created time, therefore God created time." Not very convincing.

That's not an argument. That's just repeating what I said twice. God is eternal. He doesn't wake up in the morning. He doesn't leave something until later. He doesn't think 'maybe I'll do that in an hour or so.' Being eternal means there is no connection with time. Time is just a rate of change. And God doesn't change. But He created the universe. Which does change. So time exists within the universe.

Which you define as "outside of time." I hope you see that your reasoning is circular. "God is eternal, which means outside of time. Therefore God is outside of time."

Again, it's not an argument so it can't be circular. It's a statement. God is eternal. Period. Time doesn't come into it. Time is only relevant to the universe. We experience it. God doesn't. If He appears to you today and then appears to you again tomorrow, he's not a day older.

By your definition, that time is a created thing.

As soon as the universe was created then there was change. Before the universe was created there was nothing to change so there was no time. Then there was.

But if God is outside of time, then there's another way to save mankind rather than have Jesus die...

That's the way He decided to do it. It makes no sense to me, but then it wasn't up to me.

just change what happened in the past. Make it so Jesus never had to die, because Adam never sinned. If it doesn't work the first 4 million times He tries it, just do it another 4 billion times. Won't matter to God, since He's outside of time.

A small matter of free will needs to be taken into account. I don't think it exists, but you do. And apparently God thought it was a great idea as well. So Adam had to have the choice to sin. And he did. Hence a fallen world which explains all the evil and pain. So It's then our fault and not God's. Best get-out-of-jail card ever. I mean, c'mon. This is basic theology.

Christ, Who forever became a man, was not a man before. Before what?

Before he was born. To Mary. In Bethlehem. You know, where time exists.

Before time? If God is outside of time, then Jesus, who is God, can't become something. Can't become anything. Scripture never says God is outside of time, nor that He created time.

From here: What is God’s relationship to time? | GotQuestions.org

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2) and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20). “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Upon the completion of His creation activity, including the creation of time, what did God conclude? “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good” (Gen 1:31). Indeed, God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time.

 

[AV1611VET]

Japan and Finland are outstanding societies. Likewise Singapore Ive not spent time in finland but japan and s'pore
are clean, orderly, low crime, low substance abuse, stellar academic achievement , top health and life expectancy.

Where did you get that information?

QV please:

Suicide in Japan

Japan's total numbers place it significantly outside the top 10, but suicide is nonetheless a serious concern there. Suicide is the leading cause of death in men between the ages of 20-44 and women between the ages of 15-34. The government has been active in intervention to decrease the risk of suicide, particularly among vulnerable populations. Japanese men are twice as likely to commit suicide as their female counterparts, particularly after a divorce. Of particular concern is suicide among men who have recently lost their jobs and are no longer able to provide for their families. People are expected to stay married to a single person and stay on a single job for their entire life, and the pressure of this expectation can make a divorce or job loss feel like a failure. Aokigahara Forest, at the base of Japan's Mount Fuji, is a hotspot for suicides, as hundreds of people go there each year to end their lives. Police regularly patrol the area for suicide victims and survivors.

SOURCE

 

[Derf]

What makes it god and not something else.

"It"? Do you mean the cause of everything?

Is it cause of faith or another reason

Is what because of faith? Can you explain your pronoun usage?

I think what you're trying to say is, "Why do we attribute the universe to God instead of some other cause?"

The reason is because of the design we see in the universe. The solar system and especially the earth have been made in just such a way as to allow life to flourish. The universe has competing forces that keep all matter from collapsing in or from spreading out indefinitely, either of which would destroy life. Life itself is intricately designed to flourish on this planet of ours. And life itself is a big mystery to us, how it came to be, and how it propagates itself. But it's not a mystery because it is random, but because it happens purposefully, as if the design intended exactly what was produced. And such purposefulness and design derives from an intelligent source, one that preceded all other intelligence (because they are designed to be intelligent). This is the concept we call God. A big bang wouldn't produce intelligence, only more disorder. Try it...go blow up a book and see if it gets more intelligible or less. Blow up a million books and see if the level of information increases or decreases. Books are intelligible because they are written by intelligent people. DNA is the language of biology, and it is intelligible (though we haven't yet fully cracked it's code). Such a code wasn't written by an explosion.

 

[Derf]

That's not an argument. That's just repeating what I said twice.

Right. That's what I was saying.

God is eternal. He doesn't wake up in the morning. He doesn't leave something until later.

Sure He does. I gave you a scripture reference.

He doesn't think 'maybe I'll do that in an hour or so.' Being eternal means there is no connection with time. Time is just a rate of change. And God doesn't change. But He created the universe. Which does change. So time exists within the universe.

Before the universe, God existed without a universe. Then God existed with a universe. That's a change.

Again, it's not an argument so it can't be circular. It's a statement. God is eternal. Period. Time doesn't come into it. Time is only relevant to the universe. We experience it. God doesn't. If He appears to you today and then appears to you again tomorrow, he's not a day older.

Sure He is. He experienced the day's events...He understands that you git a day older. Now He knows you as one day older and wiser, whereas yesterday He knew you as not quite as old and not quite as wise.

As soon as the universe was created then there was change. Before the universe

"Before"? I thought you said time was created at the same time as the universe. How can there be a "before"?

was created there was nothing to change so there was no time. Then there was.

That's the way He decided

God "decided"? Do you mean there was a time before God decided, and another time after? God must have changed, then, from a being who had not decided to one who has decided.

to do it. It makes no sense to me, but then it wasn't up to me.

A small matter of free will needs to be taken into account. I don't think it exists, but you do. And apparently God thought it was a great idea as well. So Adam had to have the choice to sin. And he did. Hence a fallen world which explains all the evil and pain. So It's then our fault and not God's. Best get-out-of-jail card ever. I mean, c'mon. This is basic theology.

Before he was born. To Mary. In Bethlehem. You know, where time exists.

Right. So Jesus, Who is God, became man. That's a change. One He can't take back, apparently. So for all eternity past God wasn't a man. Now He is. And you're saying He hasn't changed?

From here: What is God’s relationship to time? | GotQuestions.org

Scripture reveals that God lives outside the bounds of time as we know it. Our destiny was planned “before the beginning of time” (2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2)

In some translations "before the ages".

and “before the creation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:20).

There's that word again.

“By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible” (Hebrews 11:3). In other words, the physical universe we see, hear, feel and experience was created not from existing matter, but from a source independent of the physical dimensions we can perceive.

“God is spirit” (John 4:24), and, correspondingly, God is timeless rather than being eternally in time or being beyond time. Time was simply created by God as a limited part of His creation for accommodating the workings of His purpose in His disposable universe (see 2 Peter 3:10-12).

Upon the completion of His creation activity, including the creation of time, what did God conclude? “God saw all that he had made, and it was very good”

God "saw" something"? So a few days before, God was a being who had not seen, and then He became a being who had seen what He had made. God experienced a change.

(Gen 1:31). Indeed, God is spirit in the realm of timelessness, rather than flesh in the sphere of time.

A realm? Like three or more dimensions? I thought there was no "place" before God created the universe, just like there was no time before He created the universe.

 

[Bradskii]

God "decided"? Do you mean there was a time before God decided, and another time after? God must have changed, then, from a being who had not decided to one who has decided.

If you want to think of God like that then go for it. None of it makes any sense to me in any case. I've just put forward the least nonsensical explanation I can give. You can continue this with Rudy if you like.

 

[Estrid]

You will never understand everything to the point where it will convince you to prove the elements of faith.
Just accept it as fact.

May i ask what those elements of faith are?

 

[Estrid]

"It"? Do you mean the cause of everything?

Is what because of faith? Can you explain your pronoun usage?

I think what you're trying to say is, "Why do we attribute the universe to God instead of some other cause?"

The reason is because of the design we see in the universe. The solar system and especially the earth have been made in just such a way as to allow life to flourish. The universe has competing forces that keep all matter from collapsing in or from spreading out indefinitely, either of which would destroy life. Life itself is intricately designed to flourish on this planet of ours. And life itself is a big mystery to us, how it came to be, and how it propagates itself. But it's not a mystery because it is random, but because it happens purposefully, as if the design intended exactly what was produced. And such purposefulness and design derives from an intelligent source, one that preceded all other intelligence (because they are designed to be intelligent). This is the concept we call God. A big bang wouldn't produce intelligence, only more disorder. Try it...go blow up a book and see if it gets more intelligible or less. Blow up a million books and see if the level of information increases or decreases. Books are intelligible because they are written by intelligent people. DNA is the language of biology, and it is intelligible (though we haven't yet fully cracked it's code). Such a code wasn't written by an explosion.

You might with more accuracy and honesty
mention that the above op ed is just your opinion.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

May i ask what those elements of faith are?

Faith is evidence of things not seen.
We were not there to see creation, the events in Eden, the flood, OT events, the life and ministry of Jesus, or the death, burial, resurrection, or ascension of Jesus. Yet, we accept these events as being true. We also accept invisible things as being true... such as the spirit world. Also, future events such as the return of Christ, the judgments, and things eternal.
Most important is Christ and the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

[Derf]

You might with more accuracy and honesty
mention that the above op ed is just your opinion.

You might do the same about your beliefs, but you don't.

 

[Estrid]

Faith is evidence of things not seen.
We were not there to see creation, the events in Eden, the flood, OT events, the life and ministry of Jesus, or the death, burial, resurrection, or ascension of Jesus. Yet, we accept these events as being true. We also accept invisible things as being true... such as the spirit world. Also, future events such as the return of Christ, the judgments, and things eternal.
Most important is Christ and the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus.

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

True, there are things unseen / unseeable,
perhaps unknowable.
But what about things one can see
but are contrary to a literal reading?

 

[SavedByGrace3]

True, there are things unseen / unseeable,
perhaps unknowable.
But what about things one can see
but are contrary to a literal reading?

You would have to be specific.

 

[AV1611VET]

True, there are things unseen / unseeable, perhaps unknowable.

But what about things one can see, but are contrary to a literal reading?

Then look again.

 

[Estrid]

You would have to be specific.

Why? Its just a general q.

Everyone knows examples.