The Beginning

[Rudolph1]

Stop with the time already. Forget time. God doesn't exist in or outside time. He is eternal. Which doesn't relate to time. Don't bother trying to conceptualise it - it's not humanly possible.

And God, so I have been led to believe, is omnipotent. So there was nothing (and don't try to think about that either), then He made everything.

QED

Stop with the time already. Forget time. God doesn't exist in or outside time. He is eternal. Which doesn't relate to time. Don't bother trying to conceptualise it - it's not humanly possible.

And God, so I have been led to believe, is omnipotent. So there was nothing (and don't try to think about that either), then He made everything.

QED

What makes it God and not something else. Is it just faith

 

[AV1611VET]

I like how your argument is clean and concise ...

Thank you.

Credit to William Lane Craig for that one.

... but I just have a hard time with the first premise since this situation isn't like any other.

Why isn't it?

Premise: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

That's about as universal as you can get.

Makes sense if everything has a cause in time.

Indeed it does.

And that's why the universe couldn't have been in existence sans time; else it would violate the Second Premise, which says:

The universe began to exist.

However, this situation, there is no time.

Correct.

There even isn't a universe yet.

You can't have time without a universe, else where would time be flowing?

So it would act differently.

It can't act at all.

It doesn't exist yet.

And this is where I kind of find it to be a categorical fallacy.

No fallacy, my friend.

We Christians often get accused of not employing logic or being able to think straight.

It's a false accusation that I welcome to challenge.

 

[Bradskii]

What makes it God and not something else. Is it just faith

Yeah. But it beats me how anyone can do this from first principles. As I said, there's an enormous amount of additional beliefs with which you have to come to terms to get from 'something started everything' to 'Christ is my saviour.' But hey, good luck with it.

 

[Rudolph1]

Thank you.

Credit to William Lane Craig for that one.



Why isn't it?

Premise: Everything that begins to exist has a cause.

That's about as universal as you can get.



Indeed it does.

And that's why the universe couldn't have been in existence sans time; else it would violate the Second Premise, which says:

The universe began to exist.



Correct.

There even isn't a universe yet.

You can't have time without a universe, else where would time be flowing?



It can't act at all.

It doesn't exist yet.



No fallacy, my friend.

We Christians often get accused of not employing logic or being able to think straight.

It's a false accusation that I welcome to challenge.

I meant no disrespect. So what caused the bang, God?. Why God and not something else. And I dont understa, like I agree with the second premise. It most definitely began to exist. But why would there be a cause when a cause hasto exist in time. But there is no time

 

[Rudolph1]

Yeah. But it beats me how anyone can do this from first principles. As I said, there's an enormous amount of additional beliefs with which you have to come to terms to get from 'something started everything' to 'Christ is my saviour.' But hey, good luck with it.

Thanks idk why my head won't come to terms with it

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yeah. But it beats me how anyone can do this from first principles. As I said, there's an enormous amount of additional beliefs with which you have to come to terms to get from 'something started everything' to 'Christ is my saviour.' But hey, good luck with it.

At what point to we teach the newbie how to click the down-arrow under their interlocutor's name to learn something about the person with whom they are interacting?

 

[Rudolph1]

At what point to we teach the newbie how to click the down-arrow under their interlocutor's name to learn something about the person with whom they are interacting?

Ya idk what that is

 

[Derf]

'When?' only makes sense if there is time. God isn't outside time because there's no time to be outside. Don't think of God as existing in infinite time. He exists eternally, which is 'a state to which time has no application; timelessness.'

If time doesn't exist, but sequence does, then God is inside of sequence. In other words, God never does things in the wrong order. He doesn't create the animals before He creates the earth they will live on. God is a god of "order" (sequence). So God isn't really outside of time, since time is merely a device for distinguishing sequence.

 

[Rudolph1]

If time doesn't exist, but sequence does, then God is inside of sequence. In other words, God never does things in the wrong order. He doesn't create the animals before He creates the earth they will live on. God is a god of "order" (sequence). So God isn't really outside of time, since time is merely a device for distinguishing sequence.

What makes it god and not something else. Is it cause of faith or another reason

 

[AV1611VET]

I meant no disrespect.

None detected, my friend.

So what caused the bang, God?

There was no bang.

The Big Bang Model is a figment of a scientific imagination.

God created the universe in six literal days, by speaking it into existence ex nihilo.

Why God and not something else.

By definition, that "something else" would be God.

And I don't understand, like I agree with the second premise.

It's a universal premise.

It most definitely began to exist.

Yes.

But why would there be a cause when a cause has to exist in time.

The Bible starts out, "In the beginning ..."

There's your time.

But there is no time.

Correct.

Not until God said, "In the beginning ..."

Look at it mathematically.

Velocity x Time = Distance

Therefore: Distance / Velocity = Time

And this leads back to my previous point.

How can you have time without a universe, else where would it flow?

 

[AV1611VET]

Thanks idk why my head won't come to terms with it

That's the Big Bang Model for you.

 

[Bradskii]

But why would there be a cause when a cause hasto exist in time. But there is no time

If you want an explanation and think that someone or something started it all (an assumption in itself), then you have to also assume that what started it needs the attributes that God is meant to have. Being eternal, omnipotent and omniscient comes in handy at this point. Now you'll correctly note that that assumption has got us to God already. There's no real need to ask the question 'what started it?' as we've assumed the answer already. But crash on anyway...

So He's eternal (and we assume we can use the male pronoun as well for some reason). And there's no time. But He's omnipotent and omniscient, so He can do anything. And so He creates everything. You can't say He couldn't as there's nothing He can't do.

And then we have this little trick. We start with the creation of the universe and now we work backwards to try to work out what could have created it. Yeah, I know we already assumed it was God to move us forward to this point. And so there can only be one answer when we work backwards. Because it has to be eternal, omnipotent and omniscient. And hey, that's God!

 

[Rudolph1]

None detected, my friend.



There was no bang.

The Big Bang Model is a figment of a scientific imagination.

God created the universe in six literal days, by speaking it into existence ex nihilo.



By definition, that "something else" would be God.



It's a universal premise.



Yes.



The Bible starts out, "In the beginning ..."

There's your time.



Correct.

Not until God said, "In the beginning ..."

Look at it mathematically.

Velocity x Time = Distance

Therefore: Distance / Velocity = Time

And this leads back to my previous point.

How can you have time without a universe, else where would it flow?

Ya can't argue with that. I have a question though. Now I was reading a book about some key parts of the Bible where they find the best definition of the words written in the Bible. Now looking at the Hebrew written some say that the word beginning is different from our word beginning. This is from look at other religious texts at the time. For the other place beginning is used they say that it mean more of a period in the first stage meaning that let's use the classic big bang picture u get the cone shape. So they say they meant God comes somewhere after the beginning of the cone. Just like create and manufacture had two different meanings. Such as create means to assign function to the writers and manufacture means to physical make. What are your thoughts on this

 

[Bradskii]

If time doesn't exist, but sequence does, then God is inside of sequence. In other words, God never does things in the wrong order. He doesn't create the animals before He creates the earth they will live on. God is a god of "order" (sequence). So God isn't really outside of time, since time is merely a device for distinguishing sequence.

God created the universe and also therefore time. Which exists within the universe. God doesn't exist in the universe. He is eternal. Which is not relevant to time in any way. If He creates animals then He creates them in the universe and therefore in time.

 

[Estrid]

So what I'm saying is it can't be destined prior to time, since there is no time there's nothing before it. This is the view without god. I'm not saying God didn't cause it I'm just acknowledging the fact that Christians often use that argument. Thanks for your reply, means alot

How can anything be destined without
reversing cause and effect?

Curious...why are you trying to be christian ?

 

[AV1611VET]

Curious...why are you trying to be christian ?

So he won't die and spend eternity in Hell.

 

[Rudolph1]

How can anything be destined without
reversing cause and effect?

Curious...why are you trying to be christian ?

First part, because it's outside of time, out side of how everything else is limited to how there's a cause or effect. How can a cause exist without time. And I finished a convo with someone else and by definition God isn't a cause as we see as a cause and effect. Because that law follows only in time, but God is something that made things so if that makes sense. Like he made the things happen supernatural. But the we can't use the word cause because that term on applies in time.

I've noticed a society without God or a standard moral rulling is often worse of. I've seen how God has changed people's life and the beauty it has brought in art and philosophy. And I want to eventually raise my kids in that. So I'm giving it a shot to try.

 

[AV1611VET]

I've noticed a society without God or a standard moral rulling is often worse of. I've seen how God has changed people's life and the beauty it has brought in art and philosophy. And I want to eventually raise my kids in that. So I'm giving it a shot to try.

Accept the Gospel, my friend.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[Laodicean60]

not something else

Let's say it's not God what do you think the something else is? From nothing or what?

 

[Bradskii]

I've noticed a society without God or a standard moral rulling is often worse of. I've seen how God has changed people's life and the beauty it has brought in art and philosophy. And I want to eventually raise my kids in that. So I'm giving it a shot to try.

Let's say that you succeed. And a few years down the track some discussion, some insight makes you realise that you were actually wrong. Do you change your morality at that point? Do you become less good? Do you revert to whatever you were before?

What God is meant to be and what people say that He wants and actually has done...well, I have some problems with that. But what Jesus is meant to have taught rings a lot of bells with me. There's a lot of sense, a lot of convincing arguments as to how to live a good life. But do I need to believe that He was the son of God to appreciate that? No.

What do you think would change if I did believe it?