Sanctification: Entire, or Ongoing?

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,893
18,695
Orlando, Florida
✟1,277,440.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Sorry that I didn't quote Scriptures--I probably could have, maybe should have. I usually quote them when I recognize where my thinking came from.

So the maturing process comes from a number of verses that suggest maturity and growth. In Luke 8 Jesus talked about the sowing of seeds, which grow yielding fruit. In 1 Cor 2.6 Paul speaks about Christians who are mature and as such have wisdom from God. In Heb 5.14 the author speaks of those who are mature who can eat meat, and not just drink milk like infants.

James 1.4 Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Paul even speaks about collective growth, when the Church is functioning in harmony...

Eph 4.15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

Paul speaks of his not having reached perfection even well into his ministry.

Phil 3.13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


Living in the sin-contaminated flesh is a never-ending job of overcoming...

Rom 8.10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness.

1 Cor 9.26 Therefore I do not run like someone running aimlessly; I do not fight like a boxer beating the air. 27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

2 Cor 4.10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

Christian maturity means getting used to justification by grace alone, to paraphrase Gerhard Forde.

Yes, there is wisdom involved in that, but wisdom should lead us towards mercy, something that is too often lacking in the Holiness vision of Christian vocation based on "Fruit picking". As one Scottish Presbyterian minister put it, "Be merciful to everyone, because everyone is fighting a great battle". Too often sanctification focuses on living up to external standards and rules arbitrarily applied, instead of being merciful. Humanity is perversely disordered and fallen by nature, and we always will be in this life to some extent, so if we want mercy, we should also be merciful and forgiving.
 
Upvote 0

Kokavkrystallos

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2024
1,027
535
Farmington
✟31,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Widowed
That doesn't mean we are sinless in this life.

Entire sanctification is works-righteousness and overturns the Gospel of grace.

I don't believe in works based righteousness. I don't believe in that form of sanctification. However, I believe in abiding in Christ as taught in Johns gospel, and walking in the Spirit that we not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

1 John 1:9 is awesome, and so true. The forgiveness of God through Christs blood (1:7) is sufficient to cleanse us from all sin and unrighteousness.

1 John 1:8 & 10 is obvious since Romans 3:23 states All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and elsewhere it's written there is no one good, no not one: there is no one that sinneth not. In original sin passed through Adam we are all sinners, and have sinned.

There are some people that erroneously say "I have no sin because there is no sin" but that is as foolish as those who say "I have no soul." which I actually heard someone say this morning!

But let's move on to 1 John 2:1-6, 3:6-10, 5:2-5, and 5:18. Read these passages, and in KJV preferably so they are not watered down and lost in modern translation. NKJV is ok too. These passages are very weighty and powerful, even frightening to some; and some would rather avoid them.

It's very clear the bulk of 1 John deals with living a sanctified life, free from sin, with the caveat IF anyone sin, we have an advocate, and the sin will be forgiven. (2:1 & 5:16)

I personally lean in the direction of entire sanctification and perfection, though I believe our flesh contains the sin nature from Adam, and that will not change till we receive glorification in the resurrected body.

Look what Arthur Pink wrote on 1 John 2:1, and Pink was NOT a believer in entire sanctification or perfection (sinless perfection)

"Admire the blessed balance of truth there, and observe the order in which it is presented (I've often said same before I got this book: observe the order of what comes first). There is no turning the grace of God into lasciviousness making light of sin, but a forbidding of us to commit any. "Sin not" needs to be turned into fervent prayer...
"Sin not." Allow not yourself in any; no, not in what men term "little ones," yield to no temptation. Keep yourself unspotted from the world. Even though divine provision is made for sin, yet God's demand is "Cease to do evil; learn to do well." (Isa 1:16-17) - A.W. Pink, An Exposition on the Epistle of First John, (1952), Chapter 13, pgs 119 & 120
 
Upvote 0

Kokavkrystallos

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2024
1,027
535
Farmington
✟31,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Widowed
The real reason we should seek to do good is to glorify God and help our neighbor. The focus on ones own holiness can draw us away from this.

That is part of personal holiness, a BIG part of it. When helping others, and showing that love of Christ, we are naturally engaged in a work of holiness and sanctification without realizing it, or doing it to make points: of which nothing we do can earn any points with God. He chooses us not for us, but for His glory, and chooses us to be sanctified. We must let Him increase in us, and us decrease and it will come naturally, as John the Baptist.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,594
27,004
Pacific Northwest
✟736,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
The moment a person says, "I have nothing to repent of" they quench the Spirit and His work of sanctifying us. There can be no sanctification without repentance, without confession of sins. The flesh despises repentance, because the flesh loves glory.

The final words of Dr. Luther, "We are beggars" is always true.

We are always beggars. And let us never forget it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FireDragon76
Upvote 0

Kokavkrystallos

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2024
1,027
535
Farmington
✟31,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Widowed
The moment a person says, "I have nothing to repent of" they quench the Spirit and His work of sanctifying us. There can be no sanctification without repentance, without confession of sins. The flesh despises repentance, because the flesh loves glory.

The final words of Dr. Luther, "We are beggars" is always true.

We are always beggars. And let us never forget it.

-CryptoLutheran

I believe we should live in a continual state of repentance. No one should say they have nothing to repent of. Even if you have committed no known sin in the day, it is still wise to pray as I say often, Psalm 139:23-24, "Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."

In the flesh I am a wyrm. Strive to walk in the Spirit, that ye not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. This is where crucifixion and mortification comes in: the putting off the old man, and putting on the new.
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,893
18,695
Orlando, Florida
✟1,277,440.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
That is part of personal holiness, a BIG part of it.

It's not just a big part, it's the only part that actually matters to anybody but us. Throughout the Bible, there is a rebuke of the notion that religious correctness or piety earns any kind of merit or favor with God. The two great commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. Those aren't necessarily understood through a religious lens, particularly if we make any pretense to being heirs of the Protestant reformation. To paraphrase Luther, "God does not need our good works, but our neighbor does".
 
Upvote 0

Kokavkrystallos

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2024
1,027
535
Farmington
✟31,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Widowed
It's not just a big part, it's the only part that actually matters to anybody but us. Throughout the Bible, there is a rebuke of the notion that religious correctness or piety earns any kind of merit or favor with God. The two great commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. Those aren't necessarily understood through a religious lens, particularly if we make any pretense to being heirs of the Protestant reformation. To paraphrase Luther, "God does not need our good works, but our neighbor does".

It doesn't earn any favor at all with God, however, it is commanded by God clearly: Be ye holy for I am Holy; Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness," (2 Peter 3:11)

If we are truly walking in the two great commandments, they encompass all 10 commandments: Loving God with all your heart soul, mind, and strength will automatically make you holy - Loving your neighbor as yourself also makes you holy, and fulfills all that is written in Johns first epistle.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Cor. 7:1)
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,893
18,695
Orlando, Florida
✟1,277,440.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
It doesn't earn any favor at all with God, however, it is commanded by God clearly: Be ye holy for I am Holy; Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.
"Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness," (2 Peter 3:11)

If we are truly walking in the two great commandments, they encompass all 10 commandments: Loving God with all your heart soul, mind, and strength will automatically make you holy - Loving your neighbor as yourself also makes you holy, and fulfills all that is written in Johns first epistle.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Cor. 7:1)

Yeah, well, the problem is that in Holiness churches, "Holiness" is usually reduced to pelvic issues or even (now days) politics. The holiness God cares about is promoting justice and peace and care for the marginalized in society , not about the kind of pharisaical religion most "Holiness" churches practice.
 
Upvote 0

Kokavkrystallos

Well-Known Member
Jan 1, 2024
1,027
535
Farmington
✟31,680.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Widowed
Yeah, well, the problem is that in Holiness churches, "Holiness" is usually reduced to pelvic issues or even (now days) politics. The holiness God cares about is promoting justice and peace and care for the marginalized in society , not about the kind of pharisaical religion most "Holiness" churches practice.

That would be the Legalistic churches. I've seen them. Lots of "rules" about dress, and especially for women: no makeup or jewelry at all, no cutting their hair. One church back in the 90s didn't even believe in wearing wedding bands! Strangely, the Father in the prodigal son story places a ring on his sons finger! I know some holy women who have shorter hair, and actually wear earrings! Oh my! But their lifestyle is one of holiness. Man looks on the outward appearance but Yahweh the LORD looks upon the heart.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
14,060
3,597
✟327,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
It's not just a big part, it's the only part that actually matters to anybody but us. Throughout the Bible, there is a rebuke of the notion that religious correctness or piety earns any kind of merit or favor with God. The two great commandments are to love God and love our neighbor. Those aren't necessarily understood through a religious lens, particularly if we make any pretense to being heirs of the Protestant reformation. To paraphrase Luther, "God does not need our good works, but our neighbor does".
Yes, and yet what we do for our neighbor we do for Him. We need our good works because they reflect that love, a love which does please God while happening to fulfill the law at the same time. It's ok to be obligated -obligated to love.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,594
27,004
Pacific Northwest
✟736,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Yes, and yet what we do for our neighbor we do for Him. We need our good works because they reflect that love, a love which does please God while happening to fulfill the law at the same time. It's ok to be obligated -obligated to love.

I would agree that we are obligated to love. The question is what is the nature of this obligation:

Does God need pleasing, or does my neighbor need feeding?

I would argue that when we think of religion as God needs pleasing we are taking upon ourselves a pagan mentality; one which Scripture routinely demolishes.

"I will not accept a bull from your house
or goats from your folds.
For every beast of the forest is Mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is Mine.

If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness is Mine.
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?
Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
and call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.
"
- Psalm 50:8-15

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

FireDragon76

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 30, 2013
30,893
18,695
Orlando, Florida
✟1,277,440.00
Country
United States
Faith
United Ch. of Christ
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
I would agree that we are obligated to love. The question is what is the nature of this obligation:

Does God need pleasing, or does my neighbor need feeding?

I would argue that when we think of religion as God needs pleasing we are taking upon ourselves a pagan mentality; one which Scripture routinely demolishes.

"I will not accept a bull from your house
or goats from your folds.
For every beast of the forest is Mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is Mine.

If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness is Mine.
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?
Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
and call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.
"
- Psalm 50:8-15

-CryptoLutheran

The Hebrew prophets were actually critical of the notion of sacrifices involving burnt offerings. So was Jesus (according to biblical scholar James Tabor and several others I have read).

Sacrifice is actually a kind of idolatry, because it has its origins in the notions that our relationship to God can be transactional, that we have something to give to God.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
14,060
3,597
✟327,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I would agree that we are obligated to love. The question is what is the nature of this obligation:

Does God need pleasing, or does my neighbor need feeding?

I would argue that when we think of religion as God needs pleasing we are taking upon ourselves a pagan mentality; one which Scripture routinely demolishes.

"I will not accept a bull from your house
or goats from your folds.
For every beast of the forest is Mine,
the cattle on a thousand hills.
I know all the birds of the hills,
and all that moves in the field is Mine.

If I were hungry, I would not tell you,
for the world and its fullness is Mine.
Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?
Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving,
and perform your vows to the Most High,
and call upon Me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you shall glorify Me.
"
- Psalm 50:8-15

-CryptoLutheran
And this is why Jesus could quote Hosea 6:6 telling us what God really wants:
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matt 9:13
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

God doesn't need anything from us, or for us to even exist for that matter. And yet God is very. very pleased by our faith, our hope, and, most importantly, our love; that's what He wants. Love is defined by mercy, patience, self-giving, holiness, etc. and is inseparable from the acts that result from those dispositions, from that highest of virtues that is reflective of the very nature of God. This is what He wants from and for us, for our own highest good. And love does, for others, without regard to receiving anything back.

Love, along with any other goodness, is a work of God's in us. But love is also the righteousness that He's wanted in us all along, the righteousness that the law testifies to but cannot deliver. Love and sin are mutually exclusive and love obeys God by its nature and God has been working to cultivate that love in man ever since his first act of disobedience in Eden. Simple, humble, profoundly powerful, life-giving love is the heart of the Christian faith; its why Jesus did what He did. In opposing sin and death He died, with the ultimate sacrifice so that we may live and love. A mark of how stupidly and foolishly wrong this world is makes itself clear in that man preferred darkness to that light, to that simple love. 'We love Him because He first loved us'...or, we can resist and reject that work of His, that love, and remain in our darkness. To become a son of God means to jump on board with Him in His love, and remain there, and growing in it which is the natural result of that fellowship.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ViaCrucis

Confessional Lutheran
Oct 2, 2011
37,594
27,004
Pacific Northwest
✟736,988.00
Country
United States
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
And this is why Jesus could quote Hosea 6:6 telling us what God really wants:
"But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Matt 9:13
"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

God doesn't need anything from us, or for us to even exist for that matter. And yet God is very. very pleased by our faith, our hope, and, most importantly, our love; that's what He wants. Love is defined by mercy, patience, self-giving, holiness, etc. and is inseparable from the acts that result from those dispositions, from that highest of virtues that is reflective of the very nature of God. This is what He wants from and for us, for our own highest good. And love does, for others, without regard to receiving anything back.

Love, along with any other goodness, is a work of God's in us. But love is also the righteousness that He's wanted in us all along, the righteousness that the law testifies to but cannot deliver. Love and sin are mutually exclusive and love obeys God by its nature and God has been working to cultivate that love in man ever since his first act of disobedience in Eden. Simple, humble, profoundly powerful, life-giving love is the heart of the Christian faith; its why Jesus did what He did. In opposing sin and death He died, with the ultimate sacrifice so that we may live and love. A mark of how stupidly and foolishly wrong this world is makes itself clear in that man preferred darkness to that light, to that simple love. 'We love Him because He first loved us'...or, we can resist and reject that work of His, that love, and remain in our darkness. To become a son of God means to jump on board with Him in His love, and remain there, and growing in it which is the natural result of that fellowship.

And this is the active righteousness which we ought to have out of obedience--and love--which comes from the grace and power of God to convert us; calling us and inviting us to follow Christ, to take up our cross and endure.

The danger is thinking that this active righteousness is a path toward glory, either in this life or the next.

Abraham had faith and it was accounted to him as righteousness, this is the righteousness of faith, an accredited righteousness, an imputed righteousness. That is what reckons us as just before God, the righteousness accredited to us because Christ is righteous; He has made satisfaction.

Passive righteousness, the righteousness of faith, is what converts us; and it is a converted heart that then hears the call, "Come" and by the Spirit's power, by grace, we then take up cross and follow--to go and love our neighbor.

This is why God is pleased by mercy rather than sacrifice; God desires contrition rather than burnt offerings. Because it is not what we do for God that is pleasing to Him.

If He were hungry, He would not tell us--for He needs neither food nor drink; but my neighbor does. When our neighbor is loved, God is pleased, because that is the love and will of God.

It's about understanding direction. The direction of salvation is not from us to God, but from God to us. And the direction of good works is not from us to God, but from us to our fellow man, to our neighbor. God gives Himself away, and we too are to give ourselves away.

-CryptoLutheran
 
Upvote 0

Danthemailman

Well-Known Member
Jul 18, 2017
3,722
2,825
Midwest
✟309,605.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ar the moment of salvation, we are sanctified - set apart/made holy in standing before God positionally in Christ. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Yet the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, we read - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor.

So, becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one-time event and is not a process, yet abstaining from sexual immorality is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process.

Here is how I understand it. The believer possesses a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, an ongoing process of growth in practical, progressive holiness which becomes increasingly evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

We will not reach entire sanctification until we receive our glorified bodies.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
14,060
3,597
✟327,892.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Abraham had faith and it was accounted to him as righteousness, this is the righteousness of faith, an accredited righteousness, an imputed righteousness. That is what reckons us as just before God, the righteousness accredited to us because Christ is righteous; He has made satisfaction.
There's more to it than that because there's more to faith than simply believing in faith, itself, to save us and there's more to justification than forgiveness of sin.

Faith implies-faith means- union, solidarity, oneness with God. It's to become "My people", Jer 31:33, and to receive righteousness from on high as we're made new creations. The letter to the Romans screams that this righteousness is freely given to us, not only declared or imputed, and that were responsible for cooperating in remaining and growing in it as we remain in Him. And this reconciles the rest of the new testament where we're shown and told over and over again what types of behavior are necessary in order to be and remain just in the eyes of God and therefore to obtain eternal life. Not "works of the law" but obedience, overcoming sin, and doing good nonetheless, by the power of the Spirit now. Faith is the gateway to this life of grace as it's the gateway to God.

Faith is the first right step for man, placing us in right order with God and creation, and that's why it pleases God so greatly; it's the basis of justice for man and, as such, is the beginning and foundation of our salvation. From the point of God justifying the ungodly, we must persevere in walking in that newfound justice that comes only from God, and grow in it.

It's interesting, if not unfortunate, that this thread demonstrates at least three different views on what it takes to satisfy God's requirement for justice.

We all agree that Jesus paid the price but we disagree on what, exactly, He gained for us and what our role must be, if anything. At one extreme is an idea that man now can and must have perfect sinlessness in this life, and there is scripture that seems to support that position all right. But the church rejected this idea centuries ago.

At the other extreme is the notion that sin doesn't really matter for a believer. Or, better than this, perhaps, that the issue will somehow resolve itself, that as long as we believe we'll become sufficiently sinless, apparently, even though no righteousness has been added to the justified person in that understanding of Sola Fide, and even though, as they insist, sanctification has nothing to do with our state of justice before God.

In the historical teachings of the churches along with the early fathers, the truth is somewhere in between. Again, it's understood that perfect sinlessness is unattainable in this life and yet that there are sins that inevitably lead to death, that mean death as they're so overtly opposed to love of God and neighbor and destroy love in us. Righteousness is said to be given to us at justification but that we must make the effort to remain in and grow in it, that we participate in God's work.

And while scripture supports this position too, it also makes too much sense. If the requirement for obedience was going to be done away with in the future anyway, then God could have just forgone it's requirement in Eden and placed Adam and the rest of us in heaven so that all the evil and sin and darkness and ugliness experienced since the Fall would've been precluded. Instead He allowed man to fall into and experience a godless world and has been patiently preparing man, calling him back to his senses ever since so, like prodigals who've experienced the pigsty, we might now say "yes" instead of "no" to a Father we now finally acknowledge and recognize as having a wisdom and goodness far superior to our own. Faith is that first "yes" that makes us His children. From there we must continue to say yes daily as we pick up our cross and follow. We must persevere, we must act as children of His should. It's not guaranteed; grace is resistible.

God covets our willingness, however weakly it may be mustered and expressed by us at first, no matter how much it must be drawn and aided and cultivated by His grace. He doesn't just suddenly overwhelm us with his grace, compelling us to believe in any absolute sense, or compelling us to remain in Him afterwards. Sorry if I've been a bit wordy here. But I could've gone on....LOL.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0