Russian media attitudes towards war on Ukraine (Orthodox-related)

[Chesterton]

btw, Rus, your questioning on are there any real misogynists. We've found one in this thread who directed me to only speak if my abusive ex-husband allows me to. Obviously this is not the place for me.

You're fine here. Just ignore him.

 

[Homeowner]

Ah, interesting. So even though Nazi Germany was a terrible, damnable phenomenon, people still take the time to learn what led to it, even from the German POV? How curious.

Considering it led to WW II which set up the current world order and was probably the most significant episode of 20th century it is kind obvious to study it.

Not sure how it is over there but this is like early high school historical education over here. General knowledge.

Great it was interesting and curious for you too.

 

[Dorothea]

Actually, I WILL stay because there need to be more opinions here than the accepted one. From my perspective, some people have bought into the lies from the West as well, archer. From Covid to this, seems many just swallow everything dished out to them via corporate media without any thought process. And some more than others. The neoliberalism in a couple of posts tells me a lot.

 

[Chesterton]

Further, @Chesterton, you can read here an English translation of a propaganda piece that was accidentally released by RIA in the early days of the war. Clearly prepared for publication by some functionary on the assumption that Kyiv would give up in three days and Russia would just present the takeover as a done deal.

The new world order - The Frontier Post

Of course, the propaganda line has changed since then, as we can see in the more recent piece linked to in the OP. Now they're all Nazis (or mostly) and the whole country needs to be under Russian control, lose statehood, Ukrainian identity has to be erased, the very idea of a Ukraine independent of Russia necessarily leads to Nazism.

Again, this is a journalist, not a policymaker or spokesman for policymakers. I will say though, in my estimation this is probably closer to what's actually on Putin's mind. And I'll repeat that it's America's fault for backing him into a corner that forced him to see things this way.

 

[Chesterton]

In contemporary Russia, there is no difference between these notions. What is pushed on a state site is the approved line of the state.

This is the kind of thing I'd prefer to hear "straight from the horses mouth" before I believe it.

If you like, I can post a summary of the remarks of the spokesperson for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs about the matter. Are you interested in that, or no?

Yes, I'd like that, thanks.

 

[Chesterton]

In contemporary Russia

To this day, whenever I think of the words "in Russia", I think a Yakov Smirnoff joke is coming.

 

[Homeowner]

Actually, I WILL stay because there need to be more opinions here than the accepted one.

Wise choice. There are probably still posters on these forums and especially among Orthodox people who won't accept Putin's part in this terrible war.

His move by invading Ukraine - he was used as a tool of the antichrist to cause division between Ukraine and Russia.

You discerning this feels almost like a work of the Holy Spirit itself. Perhaps this should be posted on sign gifts forums as well. It is rare to see such spiritual gifts and they should be acknowledged as such.

 

[Chesterton]

Considering it led to WW II which set up the current world order and was probably the most significant episode of 20th century it is kind obvious to study it.

I guess you don't realize the world order is changing again now as we speak.

 

[Homeowner]

I guess you don't realize the world order is changing again now as we speak.

Weird guess since everyone can see that.

Current events flow from what happened before. Nobody knows yet how this will end shaking up the previous world order and it will probably be argued forever by historians which moments were the ones that contributed most for it but perhaps this will be the definitive period of time for 21st century.

Then again, plenty of century left. Perhaps this will just be a sad footnote of a swan song of aging dictator in the pages of history while the really big changes still lie ahead of us.

 

[rusmeister]

Since Putin is doing this with his actions is he then doing the bidding of antichrist ?

Hi, Homeowner,
I'd be happy to engage in friendly debate and disagreement with you, but I don't get that you have the least desire to try to step into what is for you an alien view for a few minutes, to try to see how it is that other human beings could possibly disagree with you. I take the disagreement for granted, AND I have a good idea and appreciation of the position you defend, which I really think has some truth in it, and is quite understandable. But that seems like a one-way street to me, and I don't get a sense of you trying to do the reverse and appreciate anything at all that I say. If that changes, I'm open, but until then, I'm not highly motivated to respond to you, because I feel that you have no interest in understanding my position, but can only imagine your own.

 

[archer75]

Actually, I WILL stay because there need to be more opinions here than the accepted one. From my perspective, some people have bought into the lies from the West as well, archer. From Covid to this, seems many just swallow everything dished out to them via corporate media without any thought process. And some more than others. The neoliberalism in a couple of posts tells me a lot.

Dorothea, it is certainly true that many people have bought into lies from various sources -- I am among them and have had to be corrected more than once.

For the record, I don't read CNN about the war against Ukraine, or any other such sources. I read (mostly) Russian propaganda media and the Telegram channels for people in the cities under attack. I have family and family friends in Ukraine (all people who identify as culturally Russian, and speak Russian as their primary language), and have friends of friends in eastern Ukraine, Russians from Russia who moved to "Nazi" Ukraine for work, reported no harassment by Nazis, and said that the only problem was when the RF started bombing their cities.

For a while I followed a channel for people in bomb shelters (also mostly Russian-speaking people) in Mariupol, but I had to stop because I was losing my mind reading all the messages where people were begging for information about their children, grandparents, siblings, etc

I don't expect my saying that to make you believe what I say is true, but I say it just to be clear that I'm not on here spouting CNN's line because I love CNN so much. I actively hate CNN and think it's an embarrassment at best. I get my news on this as directly as possible, and I really have little idea what the English media are reporting.

 

[Platina]

Considering it led to WW II which set up the current world order and was probably the most significant episode of 20th century it is kind obvious to study it.

Not sure how it is over there but this is like early high school historical education over here. General knowledge.

Great it was interesting and curious for you too.

Yah, I studied it in high school in Pennyslvania too.

But crazily enough, I never had the urge to call my teacher a Nazi propagandist for teaching us why Germany felt the way it did.

 

[Platina]

btw, Rus, your questioning on are there any real misogynists. We've found one in this thread who directed me to only speak if my abusive ex-husband allows me to. Obviously this is not the place for me.

You've been here for years, and you're far more active than the person you're referring to, who only pops in to abuse people on controversial issues. We can all just put that person on ignore, if need be.

 

[Homeowner]

I feel that you have no interest in understanding my position, but can only imagine your own.

I guarantee I have at least as much interest in understanding your position as you have of understanding the position of a Wehrmacht trooper torching a Russian village because of the constant lies and propaganda he was fed by the state through his formative years.

How much interest you really have in that kind of justification ?

Is there any reason we should have any more ?

 

[Homeowner]

But crazily enough, I never had the urge to call my teacher a Nazi propagandist for teaching us why Germany felt the way it did.

Bit of misplaced analogy.

It seems most defensive posts on this thread are not really about what the Russians feel when they shoot down an airliner, throw a missile to railway station or flatten a city.

It is mainly denying it is happening at all or at least in vastly smaller scale.

Going back to analogies it would be equivalent of your teacher telling you the Nazis never systematically murdered anyone but there might have been few cases of accidental deaths when they were putting up prison camps for dangerous insurrectionist in places like Auswitch.

I really hope students at that point would have the knowledge and guts to call that teacher Nazi propagandist.

 

[archer75]

This is the kind of thing I'd prefer to hear "straight from the horses mouth" before I believe it.

Yes, I'd like that, thanks.

Well, then there's nothing more I can say about that (whether RIA is a propaganda site). It doesn't say that on the site, no, so I have no better way to convince you than to say it's been known as a propaganda site since Putin claimed it and restarted it (in 2014, I think). But no, I don't have a document that proves that.

You say that what the author says, regardless of who is is, is close to what's on Putin's mind, but that the West is to blame for backing him into a corner. One of Putin's first acts on becoming president was to reverse the official "no first strike" policy regarding the use of nuclear arms. Why this is not a provocation, I don't know. Why Ukraine cannot decide for itself with whom to be allies, I don't know. How on earth the US promoting its own interests "forces" Putin to order that Russian-speaking civiliane be murdered, I just don't get.

Regarding remarks by the official spokesperson for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Maria Zakharova, here is the link: https://www.mid.ru/ru/foreign_policy/news/1808254/ -- that is the official site for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Oh, and here's an English link, perfect, but also on the same site. With an English translation of her remarks, perfect.

I will say that her remarks are cleaned up somewhat, not only for little stops and starts (understandable), but also because you can tell from her speech and expressions that she's almost certainly a little drunk.

Here's a sample (this text is taken from the very English link above, no alteration or editing by me):

This “cultural” mayhem, or rather “uncultured Sabbath”, increasingly reminds me of medieval obscurantism, when it was not barbarism or pagan rites but Christianity and the New Testament with its compassion to thy neighbour which offered the Holy Inquisition the rationale for burning books. Why not throw people into the same fire, while they were at it? Doesn’t this remind you of anything? They were guided by good intentions and knew how to motivate people. World War II also started with high ideals, by telling our ancestors how to live, who is “pure” and who is not, which race has a greater right to exist than another one. The analogy with the Nazi campaign in Germany to destroy undesirable books is even more terrifying. The same campaign has been carried out in Ukraine year after year with all kinds of books perishing in the fire: history books, ethnic and cultural literature, religious and children’s books. They even banned cookbooks. Why? Because they did not want to share the borsch beetroot soup with anyone. Only one nation, one ethnic group could own it. There was no way they could share it with others, so that housewives could cook it their own way in every town and region. They did not want to compromise. This is precisely what we are talking about: xenophobia, Nazism and extremism in all their forms.

As you can see, the claimed parallels with Nazi Germany don't really have anywhere to go, nor any evidence provided. Her argument culminates in the (claimed) destruction of cookbooks, because the ("Nazi") Ukrainians did not want to share borshch with anyone. In reality, of course, the Ukrainian version of this soup was well-known throughout the Soviet Union, and Ukrainians could not "put the genie back in the bottle" even if they wanted to. It is eaten widely in the United States as well. Even Paul McCartney has admitted to making borshch, having learned it (if I recall right) from Linda Eastman's grandfather, who was from Ukraine. I myself have eaten the soup in question, prepared by people from Ukraine and people from Russia. What, if any, actual event Maria Zakharova is referring to here, I don't know. But we can see clearly that she asserts that Ukrainians refuse to share borshch (the recipe) -- and then says that this is "precisely" what they are talking about: xenophobia, Nazism and extremism in all their forms.

Identifying the origin of a soup variant is not xenophobia, Nazism, or extremism.

Even refusing to share the (widely known) recipe, even if that were possible, would not be xenophobia, Nazism, or extremism.

Of course, Zakharova does not mention the Russian Federation's blocking of many, many media sites other than its own, which might more reasonably be considered an expression of xenophobia or extremism.

There are complaints in here about actions by "the West," and some of them are fair. Overall, however, her remarks are in line with the current Russian line that may be summarized as "Russia didn't do anything, anything bad that was done was done by Nazis, these Nazis were here all this time doing terrible things and now, just to make Russia look bad, they are leveling their own Nazi cities (coincidentally, largely Russian-speaking cities) and driving their own Nazi population to flee to other countries)."

I will mention this as well:
They are cancelling the study of Russian classics. We believe that studying cultural heritage enriches a person, makes them better. An interest in and respect for the culture and history of other countries and peoples is one of the most important hallmarks of the Russian people and of our country, where different cultures, opinions, views, traditions, and features coexist. We've been there before. We know how to forgive and look towards the future, see other people's mistakes and even our own, draw appropriate conclusions and move on. The most important thing I would like to say, something that I think is an important characteristic of Russians (it is my personal opinion), is that bullying has never been part of our culture or character. Russians are always ready to have a good laugh, to criticise and punish, or, on the contrary, to comfort, but never to bully anyone. Even if someone is wrong, and even more so if they are right or offended undeservedly, never ever should they be bullied or harassed.

At the same time, as we can see, bullying has actually become the hallmark of the Western community. As soon as something is not to their liking, they command “bite!” and that is it. This is flawed psychology – to force others, who might not even agree, to turn away from the one being banished. Something like this is described in the New Testament. The psychology of betrayal involves giving up something you have been loyal to only recently. This is what cancel culture is —betrayal, rejection and bullying all rolled into one.

It is true that there have been pathetic attempts to cancel various "Russian" things, and these attempts are wrong-headed and may be carried out by people with bad motivations. However, cancelling a concert is not to be compared to invading another country and trying to destroy it. Further, anyone who is unfamiliar with Russian culture should know that in any hierarchical organization, it is a much more "bullying" culture than the US. It is true that the recent nonsense about cancellation in the US is a kind of bullying, mobbing, generally evil behavior! However, it is simply not true that bullying is not a huge part of Russian culture. (The 1984 Soviet movie, Scarecrow, addresses an extreme form of bullying among children, and is a clear metaphor for the culture at large.)

 

[Platina]

It is mainly denying it is happening at all or at least in vastly smaller scale.

I was reading this convo largely as responses to Rus, who has done no such things. Perhaps I missed something from others.

 

[Platina]

I guarantee I have at least as much interest in understanding your position as you have of understanding the position of a Wehrmacht trooper torching a Russian village because of the constant lies and propaganda he was fed by the state through his formative years.

How much interest you really have in that kind of justification ?

Is there any reason we should have any more ?

You know, trying to understand the enemy could better equip us to prevent/avoid such things in the future, right? I mean, you get that there are perfectly good reasons to seek to understand, beyond a desire to justify and dimiss, right?

 

[Homeowner]

You know, trying to understand the enemy could better equip us to prevent/avoid such things in the future, right? I mean, you get that there are perfectly good reasons to seek to understand, beyond a desire to justify and dimiss, right?

Is pretty instructive. I can follow it in native tongue. It has english captions available. I get where the Russians are coming from historically. I just don't see it as justification for rape, murder and conquest in this day and age.

And no it isn't my extent of knowledge on Russia and no I don't expect to get in to the same mind set as native middle aged Russian citizen.

That said if anyone finds any inaccuracies on the video which has been watched over 1,5 million times I am totally ready to be educated about it.

 

[rusmeister]

I was reading this convo largely as responses to Rus, who has done no such things. Perhaps I missed something from others.

The thinking is evidently dichotomic. Only two possibilities are admitted: “Either you agree with me completely, or you are on the side of pure evil”. That there could be a third view is not admitted.
It doesn’t matter that I have said that I think the invasion to be horribly wrong. The very fact that I say that I can understand causes that might have provoked this disaster gets me labeled as “on the side of evil”. Nothing can be said to such people. Even when you try to agree with them you get rebuffed. The agreement must be 100%, or else you are the enemy. I have seen that both among people I know in Russia who support this horrible choice, and among people here in TAW who quite understandably oppose it. Nuances are not allowed. Understanding the other side in any way that could see any cause for sympathy for anything at all is not allowed. It is bigotry, the attitude that one’s view is as obvious as the sky is blue, and that one must be insane or evil to disagree on any point, the complete inability to imagine even how someone might have gone wrong.

I think I am going to withdraw here, as I have already done in my parish and among my Russian friends and acquaintances. I am getting used to being alone. Like Treebeard said when asked whose side he was on, “I am not altogether on anyone’s side, because no one is altogether on my side.”