Reformed View of Free-will

[BBAS 64]

Good day,

RC Sproul why we can not chose God

 

[Brother-Mike]

Thanks for posting - big thumbs up for Brother Sproul!

 

[Gup20]

Good day,

RC Sproul why we can not chose God

I don't think we have "free will." We cannot choose, for example, to reject God and be saved. I think God gives man a distinct binary choice:

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

 

[BBAS 64]

I don't think we have "free will." We cannot choose, for example, to reject God and be saved. I think God gives man a distinct binary choice:

[Deu 30:19 NASB20] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have placed before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Good Day, Gup

Agreed

The unregenerate man will always choose the Darkness he loves over the Light he hates without fail every single time.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

Good Day, Gup

Agreed

The unregenerate man will always choose the Darkness he loves over the Light he hates without fail every single time.

In Him,

Bill

I'm not totally dogmatic in that notion. For example, I consider many Catholics to not be saved because they do not have faith in the gospel, but rather faith in tradition and religious ritual (works). For that matter, many protestants are simply 'in church' because their parents were and their grandparents were. But if this is true, I have to ask myself how many of the 1.2 billion Catholics are not "saved" per se, but do choose to follow what they think is Jesus in their depraved state? How can I square the belief that they choose to follow something so very close in and of themselves without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? It strains credulity to think they have no faith whatsoever, or to think that they could come right up to the very edge of the cliff without accidentally falling in from time to time.

Also, i look at the example of Abraham. Paul says that God preached the gospel to him and when he believed the gospel of Jesus christ, he was made righteous for that faith. (Gal 3:8, 16). Abraham did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, yet he had saving faith.

I look at the words of God Himself in Genesis 3; "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;" If man knows BOTH good and evil, surly he's capable of making a choice. That's why Deuteronomy 30:19 is so interesting... it is God giving man that choice between life and death, blessing and cursing and commanding him to choose. In fact, God gives man that choice 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 and says "it is not too difficult for you to make the choice, and the choice is not made in heaven, and you do not need heaven to help you hear it and make you obey it." Paul makes the point in Romans 10 by quoting Deuteronomy 30 that it is talking about the righteousness which comes by faith.

Jesus said man chooses darkness because he fears punishment if his evil deeds were to come to light. But if you can dissuade a man from fear by telling him he could have (instead of punishment) a reward for his faith, why wouldn't he be capable of belief?

 

[BBAS 64]

I'm not totally dogmatic in that notion. For example, I consider many Catholics to not be saved because they do not have faith in the gospel, but rather faith in tradition and religious ritual (works). For that matter, many protestants are simply 'in church' because their parents were and their grandparents were. But if this is true, I have to ask myself how many of the 1.2 billion Catholics are not "saved" per se, but do choose to follow what they think is Jesus in their depraved state? How can I square the belief that they choose to follow something so very close in and of themselves without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? It strains credulity to think they have no faith whatsoever, or to think that they could come right up to the very edge of the cliff without accidentally falling in from time to time.

Also, i look at the example of Abraham. Paul says that God preached the gospel to him and when he believed the gospel of Jesus christ, he was made righteous for that faith. (Gal 3:8, 16). Abraham did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, yet he had saving faith.

I look at the words of God Himself in Genesis 3; "Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;" If man knows BOTH good and evil, surly he's capable of making a choice. That's why Deuteronomy 30:19 is so interesting... it is God giving man that choice between life and death, blessing and cursing and commanding him to choose. In fact, God gives man that choice 3 times in Deuteronomy 30 and says "it is not too difficult for you to make the choice, and the choice is not made in heaven, and you do not need heaven to help you hear it and make you obey it." Paul makes the point in Romans 10 by quoting Deuteronomy 30 that it is talking about the righteousness which comes by faith.

Jesus said man chooses darkness because he fears punishment if his evil deeds were to come to light. But if you can dissuade a man from fear by telling him he could have (instead of punishment) a reward for his faith, why wouldn't he be capable of belief?

Good Day, Gup

I to believe that in-spite of the false gospel taught by the Roman denomination there are some in that denomination that are saved, because God choose to redeem them.

well Paul is clear:

2 Thes 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you, and that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men. For not all have faith.

So to try and assert that all men have faith and there for have the ability to believe is a non-starter and not biblical.

Belief is Granted:

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake

The unregenerate have a heart that is full of wickedness all the time and very deceitful. They can do no good, and believing would be a good thing.

They need a new heart that God puts in them when He rebirths them, and he causes them to walk in His statues, and obey His Commands ( believe and repent).

EZE 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God is the all sufficient and primary cause in doing what he does for the purposes he desires and those purpose can not be thwarted. That is what makes Him God.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

The unregenerate have a heart that is full of wickedness all the time and very deceitful. They can do no good, and believing would be a good thing.

I think this is an unwarranted assumption.

Adam was created VERY GOOD with a divine nature, and no sin in him whatsoever, but he violated that nature to commit the first sin. Therefore it is not a logical assumption that one cannot violate their dominant nature, especially given that man now knows both good and evil.

EZE 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God is the all sufficient and primary cause in doing what he does for the purposes he desires and those purpose can not be thwarted. That is what makes Him God.

In Him,

Bill

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

Here we have two passages which explicitly state that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart, or regeneration) comes AFTER one has believed.

 

[BBAS 64]

I think this is an unwarranted assumption.

Adam was created VERY GOOD with a divine nature, and no sin in him whatsoever, but he violated that nature to commit the first sin. Therefore it is not a logical assumption that one cannot violate their dominant nature, especially given that man now knows both good and evil.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

[Act 11:16-17 NASB20] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore, if God gave them the same gift as [He] also [gave] to us after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

Here we have two passages which explicitly state that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (circumcision of the heart, or regeneration) comes AFTER one has believed.

Good Day, Gup

May be in your mind... never the less that is not what the op or my post was about.
If you desire to debate your view of regeneration do it some where other than in the reformed forum.

You can open a thread in the ask a Calvinist section.

My point is not all men have faith, and God commands repentance and believe which are part of Hos ways. He is the Cause of our walking in and obeying his statues.

In case you missed it:

EZE 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God is the all sufficient and primary cause in doing what he does for the purposes he desires and those purpose can not be thwarted. That is what makes Him God.

With out Him we can not seeing we can not we will not, unless you think we can of our free will choose thing that we are incapable of doing.

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

In case you missed it:

EZE 36:26 I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.

God is the all sufficient and primary cause in doing what he does for the purposes he desires and those purpose can not be thwarted. That is what makes Him God.

With out Him we can not seeing we can not we will not, unless you think we can of our free will choose thing that we are incapable of doing.

In Him,

Bill

Ooooo! Circumcision of the heart (regeneration) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!

[Rom 2:29 NASB20] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.
​

Of course, the Bible is pretty clear that faith & righteousness comes before circumcision.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

So circumcision was the SEAL of the righteous of faith. Where else did we hear about the seal of the righteousness of faith? Eph 1 which explicitly states that circumcision of the heart, or indwelling (regeneration) comes AFTER faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

 

[BBAS 64]

Ooooo! Circumcision of the heart (regeneration) by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit!

[Rom 2:29 NASB20] 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.
​

Of course, the Bible is pretty clear that faith & righteousness comes before circumcision.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16-17 NASB20] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written: "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [that is,] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that do not exist.​

So circumcision was the SEAL of the righteous of faith. Where else did we hear about the seal of the righteousness of faith? Eph 1 which explicitly states that circumcision of the heart, or indwelling (regeneration) comes AFTER faith.

[Eph 1:13-14 KJV] 13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.​

Good day, Gup

Do you make it habit and believe it to be a useful hermetical method to attempt to find contradictions in the Scripture, Rather than dealing with the Scripture that has been posted.. you have done that twice on this thread alone.

If you are looking to debate the reformed view of regeneration not here, as it violates the rules so take to the debate section of this forum.

For further consideration I would suggest Owens work on the subject:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/owen/The Work of the Holy Spirit in - John Owen.pdf


Back to the OP- Reformed View of Free-will

The greatest theologian that America ever had Johnathan Edwards on the issue:

Freedom of the Will

In Him,

Bill

 

[Gup20]

Good day, Gup

Do you make it habit and believe it to be a useful hermetical method to attempt to find contradictions in the Scripture, Rather than dealing with the Scripture that has been posted.. you have done that twice on this thread alone.

If you are looking to debate the reformed view of regeneration not here, as it violates the rules so take to the debate section of this forum.

For further consideration I would suggest Owens work on the subject:

https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/owen/The Work of the Holy Spirit in - John Owen.pdf


Back to the OP- Reformed View of Free-will

The greatest theologian that America ever had Johnathan Edwards on the issue:

Freedom of the Will

In Him,

Bill

Sorry Bill... Yes, I did not read the rules for this section. Was interested in discussion / debate. I (obviously) don't hold to a reformed theological perspective. I will withdraw.

 

[Gup20]

Everyday, I command my wings to pop out but as of today, I haven't seen my wings yet. My free will is useless ! I should stop wasting my time and move on. Maybe it'll pop out if I forget about.
The bible tells me "forget about! it ain't gonna happen".

We get a better deal than angels… we join the trinity.

John 17:20-24 (NASB20) 20 “I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, 21 that they may all be one; just as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 “The glory which You have given Me I also have given to them, so that they may be one, just as We are one; 23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and You loved them, just as You loved Me. 24 “Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.